Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby DSS200->NEC2500: Only White Image

This is topic Dolby DSS200->NEC2500: Only White Image in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-12-2011, 03:19 PM:

Someone just emailed me about a problem he is having with his DSS200 - he wiped the old software and upgraded to 4.3.0.0. Now when he is trying to play, the NEC only outputs a white image. He claims he has reconstructed certificates, Macros, etc.
Can someone pinpoint the cause? I told him to contact his servicetech and that he shouldn't have done what he has done, but...

- Carsten

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-12-2011, 03:39 PM:

Was this done single disc upgrade? V4.3 has been known to be glitchy during that process, and not upgrade the media block properly. Also if it was done without a KDM for the media block part (and by the sound of it 'someone' didn't know what he or she is doing), the media block and DSS200 will now have mismatched software. I don't know what the outcome of that would be, but it won't be good.

'Someone' should try downgrading back to V4.2 perhaps?

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-12-2011, 03:40 PM:

If the system was working correctly before the software upgrade, the first step I would take is to reload the software and see if that fixes it. If that does not work I would downgrade back to 4.2.1

If that doesn't work then I would do some different trouble shooting!

Chase

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-12-2011, 05:03 PM:

I found it hard to believe, but the thing started with just a single failed drive. He had 4.1 on the DSS200 before and so the RAID rebuild had to be started manually. He looked it up in the DSS200 setup manual, tried various things, maybe had problems with the language - then he came back to me and said the server had rebooted and was now just showing a blinking shell login prompt. That was during the night and he said he had a show coming up around noon. I told him the rebuild with full drives would need quite some time which he should have granted the unit before fiddling around with it any further. He inquired about wiping the system completely, I told him not to do it but instead call service before he tries something like that. Next thing is he tells me he has 4.3.0.0 on it now and updated the MediaBlock, but is only playing white now...
Communication is only in fragments. I was just posting here in case anyone experienced the white screen thing before and if that would pinpoint to a specific setup issue.

- Carsten

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-12-2011, 06:21 PM:

Is it possible that he is seeing a white screen that is snow with some colors mixed in? If so the server is not making a security connection with the projector.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 08-13-2011, 05:27 AM:

First off, updates should never be applied with a drive down in the RAID [Eek!]

I've seen issues like this after an update, and it was that the media block had not taken the update correctly. The result on screen was as described by Chase. A kind of random white snow with radily moving pixels of different colours. Not solid white though.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-13-2011, 05:50 AM:

Well, he already had a new drive in, but wether the RAID had already been rebuilt with it, I don't know. Seems they also did not find the original Software (4.1?) for the reinstall. From where they got the 4.3, I also don't know. He answers few questions...

Regarding the system software, I like the Doremis with their flash-based approach and their option to have a current backup on a USB stick.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2011, 01:02 PM:

I would check to ensure that the Cinelink is set right...Cinelink II DH should work unless it is a very old projector.

This guy is clearly getting some sort of help since these upgrades require KDMs from Dolby to upgrade/update the Cat 862 (even if on a downgrade).

I have done the 4.3.0.36 update MANY times now both updating the Cat 862 manually and also by having a KDM on a thumb drive in the front of the player...never a failed update.

Note, once a player goes up to 4.3.0.36, one has to either go through an elaborate deconfig procedure OR use an "INSTALL" disc to downgrade. However, on an INSTALL...ALL (and I mean ALL) content is wiped from the Raid so one better have a means to load the default content on first (back it up to a CRU drive)...thinks like the black clips, tests, feature presentation snipes...etc.

In any case...Dolby Tech support should be the place to call to get this screen back up.

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 08-14-2011, 09:05 AM:

I have had this problem with one of my DSS 200's before.

I do not know if it is software specific, but what I've done to fix it is to turn off the server, take out and reseat the hard drives and then reboot. I have no idea why that works, but it does for me.

This has fixed the problem twice for me.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 08-14-2011, 09:38 AM:

I thought digital was perfect & problem free. . . . .

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-14-2011, 11:51 AM:

That's true Jim, because film equipment has never, ever failed either. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-14-2011, 03:32 PM:

I woulda thought that Dolby would have done away with needing a KDM to do upgrades on the 200. That aspect is one I always hated on the 100 and actually found ludricous... Other servers require just a password to do an upgrade or downgrade making it very easy to accomplish on the fly or in an emergency. I seem to remember it was a security issue with the 100... But then the Sho-player will kill itself even if you remove the top cover, so how secure does it have to be?? I'd hate to have to have a KDM to upgrade every projecto I've ever fed firmware into! I'd be very inclined to use Dolby products if it were'nt for this single thing.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-14-2011, 09:43 PM:

The KDM thing is no bigger hassle than having a password...in fact, it is less...nothing to type in. Once you have it, you have it.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2011, 06:29 AM:

I respectfully disagree Steve... different KDM is required for each server... I donno about you or everyone else here but the exhibition industy operates 7 days a week. Try getting one on a Saturday or Sunday! Isn't going to happen through the usual channels. Passwords are not tied to a specific server hence once you have a password stored on your phone notes you have it and it works on all a given manufacturers servers. Sorry but the password method offers far better support than requesting, and waiting for a kdm to show up in email. Everyone uses an OS hard drive. If that failed on a Friday night there is a high probability that you'd be down all weekend on that screen... The originator of this thread seems to be in that predicament. Before he or you for that matter would be off the phone from requesting that KDM I'd already be done reloading my firmware. Again.... from the several Dolby classes I have attended the requirement of a KDM is some security aspect. Today that seems totally unnecessary with available technology. Other server manufactures seem to have side stepped it without any issue.

Mark

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-15-2011, 08:34 AM:

Mark,

The point is...once updated...the KDMs exist for that player locally...yes a separate KDM is needed for each player but like other KDMs...a ZIP file can contain all of the KDMs for the complex.

The KDM is tied to the media block only...to reload the OS one does NOT need any KDM with Dolby...just the Upgrade or Install disc (upgrade version is downloadable from the secure site).

Unlike some, the OS is on the RAID with Dolby so it has the same protections, redundancy as everything else on the RAID. One need not worry about a single point of failure like those with a single OS drive.

The only reason for the KDM thing is so Dolby can collect money for updates to their system as they bring new features on-line. Since they come with a 2-year free software update policy (and that has been stretched in the past since all DSP100/DSS100 systems are also entitled to free 4.2.1.3), they pretty much cover the person that buys the system and might need bug fixes or some recent feature enhancement.

-Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2011, 01:59 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Everyone uses an OS hard drive. If that failed on a Friday night there is a high probability that you'd be down all weekend on that screen... The originator of this thread seems to be in that predicament.

Indeed this is a HUGE reason where Dolby shines. If you have for example a Doremi server, you are at the mercy of that flash drive. (I have seen a 25% failure rate.) If you have a GDC server, you are at the mercy of a plain old SATA hard drive and we all know what the saying is, it isn't IF it will fail, but WHEN.

ALL hard drives fail.

With Dolby storing their OS on the raid, you can lose a drive and still not lose anything...including your shows! Even if there was a catastrophic failure and you somehow lost 2 drives, the re-install disc can be put into the machine and no you DON'T have to re-load that kdm. All is wonderful again.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2011, 03:00 PM:

That isn't true for the100 SS where the OS is spread across both a single drive and the RAID. Flash drives as used in the Doremi are failure prone but SSD's on the other hand are quite different and are not failure prone. GDC has offered that as an option at my request... Have not gone that route yet but as a read only device I wouldn't expect it to ever fail...

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-15-2011, 03:46 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
That's true Jim, because film equipment has never, ever failed either.

True, just some of the users failed. [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-15-2011, 08:46 PM:

What system are you thinking of Mark? The DSS100 does not have an OS drive...just the same four RAID drives.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2011, 09:37 PM:

It may also be that I was thinking of the Show Player... what ever. Either way, having the OS on a RAID is great but it would be better if it were on it's own RAID seperate from Storage RAID. And a seperate SSD drive for just the OS would typically be even more reliable than a sata based RAID 1 or any SATA for that matter. Some new critical Enterprise servers lately are being set up with SSD's in a RAID 1 to be dam sure! Most Enterprise type servers are set up with OS on a RAID 1 and storage on a RAID 5. Most hardware RAID cards allow this to happen quite easily... and it only adds one more 50 buck drive to the system equation.

Another question... Can you pull the RAID Drives out of the DSS-200 and move them to another DSS-200 and import the new RAID and have playable content or wiill the RAID have to be reinitialized causing it to loose all the data? Sometimes you can do this with Enterprise servers... sometimes not. Depends more on the individual RAID card used. I'm betting that isn't going to happen on the 200 since the KDM refrenced on the RAID is tied to a particuluar server. Or do you just have to enter the next server's KDM? I'm very curious as to if this would work or not. We have had situations in Southern Utah theaters with HVAC going down and having to instantly move the contents to another room. Other servers allow this to be done and with the drives placed back in the next server in no particuluar order and the RAID simply imported. Is this possible in the 200? Of course I realize that an LMS also eliminates some of the move issues.
Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2011, 09:45 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Flash drives as used in the Doremi are failure prone but SSD's on the other hand are quite different and are not failure prone. GDC has offered that as an option at my request... Have not gone that route yet but as a read only device I wouldn't expect it to ever fail...

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
a seperate SSD drive for just the OS would typically be even more reliable than a sata based RAID 1 or any SATA for that matter.

Sorry to disappoint you Mark, but I have had a 50% failure rate with SSDs! For the time being, a good old fashioned RAIDED array for the OS for reliability and uptime can't be beat.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Another question... Can you pull the RAID Drives out of the DSS-200 and move them to another DSS-200 and import the new RAID and have playable content or wiill the RAID have to be reinitialized causing it to loose all the data?

You can actually have a set of 4 drives on the Dolby pre-loaded with the OS and even content if you want and move them around. Moving drives is STUPID STUPID STUPID as you are just ASKING for a failure, but if you want to, yes there is nothing stopping you.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Of course I realize that an LMS also eliminates some of the move issues.

Any theater that is installed without a library was done incorrectly and is nothing more than a big screw job to the theater. Yeah sure it seems cheaper at first and may have helped to make the sale, but when the shit hits the fan (especially when using a server designed-for-failure), the customer is extra screwed without the library. I for one won't EVER put my customers in scenarios like that. Uptime is absolutely critical.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-15-2011, 10:18 PM:

Yes, you CAN transplant drives (as a set) from one DSS200 to another DSS200. The same is true with DSS100s. However, you are transplanting the whole thing so the theatre will think it is a different theatre number and all of the IPs will be coming along for the ride too.

There was a period where we had a player in our shop and a customer wanted to upgrade their player in the field from 400GB to 1TB drives for the increased storage capacity. Doing a, from scratch 3TB formatting and system loading in the field could be VERY lengthy when starting from blank, unformatted drives.

I was able to put the new drives in the player in the shop, load the OS onto them (overnight)...then set all of the IPs and other theatre specific info, load the standard CPLs (clips) (Blanks and such).

Then when I was in the field, I copied the various clips they wanted to keep to my CRU...swapped the drives, put their clips back and I was done. The drives woke up in the player as if they had always been there...everything connected back up (to the projector) without having to do ANY programming in the field.

One point you keep getting wrong is that the KDM is ONLY tied to the MEDIA BLOCK, not the DSSx00 player. That is, the KDM affects updating a Cat 862 or a DSP100...neither of which run the OS or TMS.

I agree that having a mirrored OS drives and a RAID data drives would be the most ideal. However, I'll take a RAIDed OS over a single point of failure single drive OS.

As for a Library...with Dolby, one really isn't needed until the 4th Screen...one screen can also function as the LMS effectively enough (single point of entry, can pull/push schedules...etc.

-Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2011, 10:29 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
load the OS onto them (overnight)

Really??? It takes less than 10 minutes.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-15-2011, 10:48 PM:

It's good to hear the drive sets can be moved around, something I've never tried to do on any of the Dolby's. AND moving them it is not as touchy as Brad makes it out to be. Sure... you don't want to drop them but when a drive is in it's dead state the heads are parked and damaging the platters is actually pretty difficult to do. Drive maufacturers take into account shipping drives around in worst case conditions and that can mean a fall off a conveyer belt in a sorting facility or even worse. Think about the abuse that the DCP's get in shipment... many many times. A live drive on the other hand IS touchy. Treat any dead drive like it was a xenon lamp and it'll last for ever.

I've never seen or had an SSD fail. Ever. I have them in all of my laptops and tablets, a couple of them are going on 6 years old now. The flash drives used by Doremi are very different from am MLC or SLC and really, Doremi should just use a high end SATA there. It would probably be more reliable than the flash memory! A good quality SSD comes with a very good controller that over sees any internal memory issues and writes out those sectors. You never even know there are any bad sectors. With drives yous get what yous pay for... just like with SATA drives there are cheap drives and higher end drives. As for SATA reliability... I've seen high end SATA drives last a very long time, not on a par with SCSI but still typically 5 years. There will always be that occasional drive failure no matter what...

I don't know of an OS that takes longer than ten min. to load. He may be thinking of rebuilding the raid. That typically does take overnight with 1 tb or larger drives.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-15-2011, 11:29 PM:

You are probably right on the raid. With the 1TB drives that is pretty much an overnight thing.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-16-2011, 12:58 AM:

Yes...I said starting with BLANK (well, from scratch was the exact word) drives but I did mention FORMATTING as well as loading the system on. To do 3TB can take up to 17-hours to fully format from factory fresh drives with nothing on any of them. Mind you, the system woke up pretty fast but in the System>Server tab, it said "formatting" for a long time.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-16-2011, 09:53 AM:

Interesting that it says formatting when it is actually most likely just initializing the RAID.... You wouldn't format until after initalization has taken place. Again depending on the RAID card there can be "Quick Initialization" or "Full Initialization". The latter is always best to run on a full set of new disks. Then a quick format instead of a full format can be done either as part of the OS install or done manually before it is installed.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-16-2011, 12:06 PM:

You are probably correct that it says initializing. Thus far, I've only had to do this once (start from blanks).

-Steve

Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 08-16-2011, 03:38 PM:

I know the DSS100 has a flash card inside. It is mounted on the side wall behind the CRU bay. I thought the OS was loaded there. If the OS is on the RAID, then what is on the flash card?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-16-2011, 08:55 PM:

You can boot the Doremi from a USB stick if the original flash drive/SSD ever fails.

- Carsten