Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Correct Aspect Ratio for The Lion King 3D

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Posted by Jason Raftery (Member # 6291) on 09-15-2011, 03:07 PM:

Hello,

I am a bit confused over what aspect ratio to project The Lion King 3D at. I am using a NEC NC2500S-A projector and a Dolby 3D system on a side masked screen.

The documentation I received from Technicolor says to run it at 1.85:1 and the included framing chart and trailers are formatted as standard 1.85:1 flat. However, when the actual feature hits the screen right after the Disney bumper, I have black pillars on either side of the projected image. The image does fill the full height of the screen, just not the width. Switching to 1.78:1 on the fly resolves the width problem and fills the full masked screen at the expense of some loss of material at the top and bottom of the screen. To complicate matters, when the credits roll at 1.85:1, they do not start at the bottom of the screen or end at the top--the image is fully windowboxed on all four sides. Projecting the credits at 1.78:1 results in them starting right at the base of the screen and ending at the top with no cut off.

It's my understanding the diamond edition blu-ray of The Lion King that comes out next month is formatted at 1.78:1.

Are the black pillars just an artifact of converting from the 1.66:1 original and the credits being fully windowboxed the result of conversion to blu-ray at 1.78:1? Or is this feature not supposed to be run at 1.85:1 as Technicolor claims?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-15-2011, 05:05 PM:

It would be difficult to believe that even the original would have been 1:66 aspect ratio as they is only a common European format. Disney produced that here in the States and the standard here is 1:85 for flat. Someone mucking with the original again I suspect!!

Mark

Posted by Jason Raftery (Member # 6291) on 09-15-2011, 06:26 PM:

Mark, you're right the original theatrical release was 1.85:1. I was thinking of the 1.66:1 Platinum Edition DVD release where Disney supposedly took the full frames straight from the film negative.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 09-15-2011, 07:06 PM:

Noticed myself that the trailers we are runing have black on the sides (image not full width).

We haven't started showing the feature yet.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-17-2011, 02:28 AM:

On my presentations of "LK" - both in 2D and 3D, I do notice that the image isn't filling the screen's sides completely. I have thin black bars on each side of the screen.

Thus, it does look like the feature was formatted up to 1.78:1, instead of a normal 1.85:1 for conventional flat digital presentations.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 09-17-2011, 09:30 AM:

Sounds like it was mastered from a TV print and not the original 35mm theatrical print.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 09-17-2011, 11:27 AM:

They do seem to use varied aspect ratio's for flat Disney films. I did have LK on Letterbox VHS but can't remember what ratio that transfter was in. I do think I had Hercules or another movie from around that same time that was transfered in 1.66

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-17-2011, 09:44 PM:

I ran the original LK 35mm back in 1994 and the frames were hard matted for, it looks like, a 1.75:1 presentation since I had 1.85:1 uncut apertures and had frame turning room with the knob before the edge of the bars were exposed.

But, it could have been 1.66:1 when prints were struck.

Posted by Dan Lyons (Member # 1454) on 09-17-2011, 09:57 PM:

Disney floating windows

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-17-2011, 10:04 PM:

I saw THE LION KING in 3-D today at the Pearl Highland theatre. Before the feature started, all of the trailers (in 3-D) were shown i what appeared to be the 1.85 ratio but when the feature started, the picture did not fill the entire screen because there was a sliver of blank screen on the right and left.

By the way, I thought the 3-D was very good. There were parts that was excellent and other sections was very good. Did this release have a 7.1 Dolby track because I thought the sound was great.

-Claude

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-17-2011, 11:06 PM:

according to Dolby's website, it is being released in 7.1

I saw this on AMC's Tyson's ETX screen and I thought the bass for the film was weak - I remember hearing the film in it's initial theatrical release and the bass was a lot tighter and had a lot of oomph - here though it didn't

In terms of the aspect ratio - the image filled the entire ETX screen (1.78) but the bottom I noticed fell slightly off the screen.

as for the 3D - I thought it fine, not good, but definitively not great. On the whole I thought the 3D effect was pretty sporadic. I also thought the sharpness of the picture was on the hazy side at times.

Posted by Jason Raftery (Member # 6291) on 09-18-2011, 01:03 AM:

Dan, thanks for the link to Disney's explanation regarding floating windows. I guess that explains why the black pillars I'm getting are wider on the 3D version than the 2D (the 2D version is not a true 1.85:1 -- there's still a bit of black on either side of the image).

The windowboxing in the credits also remains a mystery.

For Claude, Jonathan is correct, there is a 7.1 version of the DCP available.

As a side question, does anyone know what frequency the test tone plays at for the LFE channel on Disney's framing chart? I couldn't hear anything in the house I screened LK in during that portion of the sound check.

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-18-2011, 11:40 AM:

The Lion King was produced in 1.66:1 back in the 1990s, as was Aladdin.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-18-2011, 12:31 PM:

Saw it in 2D. The image was absolutely stunning, but the sound mix was all over the place. Notably, the deep bass I remember hearing in the opening sequence was non existent. I know this room was capable of deep bass, but it was just plain flat. Some later sequences sounded great, but it was kind of all over the place.

AJG

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-18-2011, 12:46 PM:

I thought the sound overall was a little softer than normal. We are playing this at 7.0 which would normally be a little too loud (we're normally at 5.8 to 6.3) but it sounds fine.

The bass sounded OK to me during the action scenes but I thought it was kind of weak during the songs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-18-2011, 06:02 PM:

Indeed it is recorded quieter. The theaters I setup are running this at 8-8.5

7 is the norm for pretty much everything except shitty Michael Bay movies.

Posted by Jerome Holmes (Member # 5013) on 09-20-2011, 06:19 PM:

To diverge from the sound topic.

When LK 2d image is framed correctly, there is a black bar sitting on the masking on screen right(Test frame lines/arrows are absolutely correct). I couldn't tell that it was a black bar till I moved it over the screen in an attempt to re-center what i thought was image area. There is no symmetrical vertical black bar on the right hand side, which it sounds like you guys have seen.

Am I understanding this correctly? The original post states that there are "black pillars on either side", but i only have mine on the left side of the image.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 09-20-2011, 08:42 PM:

quote: Dan Lyons
Disney floating windows

Just what I was thinking...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-20-2011, 08:49 PM:

quote: Jerome Holmes
there is a black bar sitting on the masking on screen right

Interesting, for my two digital presentations, I have the black bar on both sides of the screen in equal measurments.

Just go into the lens shift control and shift the lens a touch to the right to get the other side's black bar exposed..just have to forget about the screen test thingey for the time being.

...gotta be a "projectionist' - bend the rules some and make up your own.

Posted by Walter Rabey (Member # 5968) on 09-21-2011, 04:13 AM:

Did anyone notice the sound level to be a little on the quiet side? I ran the 5.1 3D package and had to turn my CP500 fader up to 7.0. Normally I find 6.0 sufficient for just about any film at my multiplex.

Excellent film though. Picture quality was great. My favorite movie. Im happy they left the 'morning report' sequence out on this one. [Smile]

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-21-2011, 11:34 AM:

On a related note, THE LION KING made the most money last week and was the #1 movie of the week after it had made a little over twenty nine million dollars. I do not ever recall this happening before with a re release of a movie that is already out with a DVD, VHS and Laserdisc. On top of that, the Blu-Ray in both 2-D and 3-D is scheduled to be release in less than two weeks with a updated DVD.

The 3-D showing I saw last Saturday in the largest auditorium at Regal's Pearl Highland Theatres was well attended with almost the same amount of people that were there for films like THOR and CAPTAIN AMERICA. The movie was also released in 2-D at this theatre Does anyone have the figures for both version of the film and which version made the most money? I have noticed the movie was only released in Digital because the theatres that does not have it here in Honolulu are not showing it.

-Claude

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 09-21-2011, 02:54 PM:

quote: Walter Rabey
Did anyone notice the sound level to be a little on the quiet side? I ran the 5.1 3D package and had to turn my CP500 fader up to 7.0. Normally I find 6.0 sufficient for just about any film at my multiplex.

Excellent film though. Picture quality was great. My favorite movie. Im happy they left the 'morning report' sequence out on this one

yes very much so, also (as I noted before) the bass is lackluster as well.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-21-2011, 03:42 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
Does anyone have the figures for both version of the film and which version made the most money?

According to Boxofficemojo, 92% of the gross was from the 3D version.

I can see it now....dozens of suits at Disney trying to decide which classic animated movie to convert next. I can save them the trouble because I have the best idea right here:

ALADDIN

That would be great in 3D, what with the magic carpet flight scenes and Robin Williams' genie popping out of things, etc.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-21-2011, 04:49 PM:

(Tell the Disney suits NOT to bring up "Pocahontas...")

This 3D conversion thing could start a boulder rolling down the hill with tons of films to think of converting (and please, let's put "Star Wars" to rest for a few decades now...), and wonder who's brave enough to start the list?

-Monte

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-21-2011, 05:31 PM:

Well, you're too late for putting Star Wars "to rest" -- Episode I in 3D is already scheduled for next spring.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-21-2011, 06:01 PM:

I have heard some of the studios are restoring a few 3-D films from the 50s for release on Blu-Ray in 3-D and I hope the success of the 3-D release of THE LION KING will make it possible to see some or all of them in theatres before they are released on discs. I know Warners is already working on HOUSE OF WAX and Columbia is preparing MISS DADIE THOMPSON. Because the younger generation has never heard of the 3-D films of the films, I do not think a one or two week run will be too successful. They should play as one or two day special events with only one or two showings a day. A digital presentation of SCARFACE starring Al Pacino was presented tihis way in some Regal Theatres and I think it will be a great way to present some 3-D films from the fifties. I have never seen these films in 3-D and I would willing to pay a reasonable amount to see KISS ME KATE, DIAL M FOR MURDER, HONDO and MISS SADIE THOMPSON in that format. I have seen these in 3-D and would love to see HOUSE OF WAX, INFERNO, SANGAREE, IT CAME FROM OUT OF SPACE, THE CREATURE FROM THE BLACK LAGOON, BWANA DEVIL, THOSE REDHEADS FROM SEATTLE, ARENA and many others again.

-Claude

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-21-2011, 06:41 PM:

("Dang!" Mike, you're right - forgot about EP:1 for spring release ... here they come again...)

..and Paramount's doing "Top Gun" also..(spoke too soon..)

What I'm seeing is this: Houses are having horrible openings where theatres would like to, at least, fill them half way on a Fri night.

Studios are also recognizing lackluster opening night grosses..something has to be done..

"Let's start a new "fad" - re-releasing films in 3D. No production costs have to be done since they've already been made. Just spend a few million to have them converted to 3D and try to bank twice on the re-issues"..and the cinemas will be happy to getting their houses filled once again... a "win-win" situation here"

See what happens. - Monte

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-21-2011, 10:24 PM:

I'd rather have something old and good like The Lion King or Ghostbusters playing in my theatre to full houses than some new and crappy playing to empty houses.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-21-2011, 11:35 PM:

Now, I'd pay to see "Ghostbusters (1984)" in 3D..

Posted by Juan Carlos (Member # 5884) on 09-23-2011, 12:45 AM:

Hi Everybody!!!!...
this is not a "solution", but works, (in Mexico, Lion King 3D was released in August 26.)

In the cinema, have a Christie cp2000zx, and a 3 Barco (2 dp2k19b and dp2k20c)... in christie, select any Flat 3d channel, and change output resolution (default: 1998*1080) to 1920*1080, the pillarbox is minimal....or null. (this depends the size of the screen....in one screen we have proportion 14*9 without pillarbox, but in another screen with proportion 16*9 is minimal.) in barco, it´s much hard to make, (edit macro), and i can´t remember how to do it!!!but it´s the principal... sorry....in christie is so much easy to make !!!!

good luck!!!

Posted by Walter Rabey (Member # 5968) on 09-23-2011, 11:51 PM:

IMO The Lion King was a relatively easy choice for Disney to be a re-release candidate because, its a modern hand drawn animated film. Obviously all the original layers used in the initial production are archived. They have a ton of different layers to play around with and tweak, to produce the stereoscopic image.

Id like to see Aladdin get a re-release too. It would be spectacular.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-24-2011, 01:24 AM:

quote: Walter Rabey
to produce the stereoscopic image.

..you can do your own stereoscopic viewing:

Take two identical images and place them apart with the where each eye is seeing their respective image clearly.

Now, cross your eyes to where the two images comes together inbetween the two images as a third image..

that third image will be a stereoscopic image.

This is basically how they did "Lion King" 3D ..

It's kind of an old trick, with more enhancements.

One can do it with any clip of film with consectutive images - snip the film where you have two frames. Hold each frame up to the light and where you see two separate frames with each eye. Cross the eyes and the frames will come together in the middle as a third frame. Look at the image in that third frame ... you see a stereoscopic image.

-Monte