Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Nightmare At Vancouver Film Fest

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Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 10-12-2011, 09:00 AM:

. . . "but digital is better"... [Roll Eyes]

Just like Toronto 2011 and many festivals over the past year, the digital evolution stumbled big when VIFF scheduled numerous DCP (Digital Cinema Projection, the gold standard of high definition digital cinema) screenings in the Granville 7, the biggest house in the Granville multiplex, only to be left high and dry with two faulty projectors. Yes, the emergency system flown in to replace the first also failed to work and in place of high quality, 4K DCP prints, audiences were left with projected DVD screeners (complete with company watermarks) of some of the most heavily attended films of the first weekend. I sat through one but couldn't do it a second time when The Front Line came out bleary and blurry, with colors off and an incorrect aspect ratio. Some of those problems were fixed a few minutes after I ducked out, I've been informed, but it's still an inadequate substitute for what was supposed to be a state-of-the-art digital presentation. I've adjusted my Sunday schedule accordingly to skip the DCP presentations entirely (unless I hear that the system has been repaired) and look to other theaters.

>Story excerpted from Film Programmers ListServ<
Original Source Link

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 10-12-2011, 11:36 AM:

What was the system?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-12-2011, 02:39 PM:

I'm pretty sure the system in question is a Dolby system that was specifically installed for the festival. Normally this theatre is all film and has no plans to go digital.....

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-12-2011, 04:26 PM:

Hmmm...4K is not released on Dolby servers yet...perhaps you are speculating? Also, the implication was that the projectors were at fault and Dolby does not make those.

I wonder what the real equipment was.

-Steve

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-12-2011, 05:34 PM:

Steve, it's definitely a Dolby server. A friend of mine is covering the festival as well took a snapshot of the screen in the cinema in question;

As for the projector, the festival is sponsored by Christie, so they might be using a Christie unit.

The 4K statement by the author of the article is most likely incorrect.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-12-2011, 06:21 PM:

How did they play the screener? Did they have to bring in a 3rd projector? I cringe at the thought that someone may have brought in a power point projector to run with in a pinch :/

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-12-2011, 07:42 PM:

quote: Mike Olpin
How did they play the screener? Did they have to bring in a 3rd projector? I cringe at the thought that someone may have brought in a power point projector to run with in a pinch :/

that's the million dollar question here, I assume the third projector was so subpar that's the reason why the projected image looked like shit.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 10-12-2011, 07:48 PM:

Screeners almost always look terrible. And I handle a few hundred each year, trust me. Almost always leterbox on 4:3, watermarked, sometimes over the top of subtitles. They never look good even projected through a DLP Cinema projector.

Of course, a low quality video projector wouldn't help. [Wink]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-12-2011, 08:41 PM:

Ron,

Note...the Dolby logo on the screen means nothing...a DCP file can play on any player but it is highly likely that it IS a Dolby server since one may not back a file off of brand A's server and put it on brand B server. That is not the case with test patterns that are on the projector itself. You can run a Christie pattern on a NEC projector...etc. I do note the test pattern is a 2K pattern, despite the 4K claim by the author.

My curiosity is definitely interested.

-Steve

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-13-2011, 03:19 PM:

I think you can extract a package from one server and ingest it in another, they should all be standard packages. I can't see any reason to do that here, but I have Doremi pink noise test files I have used on other servers. I pulled these out of a Doremi server when I needed them: the original files on a USB stick were misplaced.
Using a 2k test pattern to set up a 4k projector screen file is fine, but a 4k pattern should be used for focus.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-13-2011, 03:56 PM:

Heard some more about this last night;

They are running a Dolby Server and a Christie Projector. The issue that happened was the server and the projector would not " talk " to each other and a replacement server was brought in.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-13-2011, 05:14 PM:

quote: Ron Lacheur
Heard some more about this last night;

They are running a Dolby Server and a Christie Projector. The issue that happened was the server and the projector would not " talk " to each other and a replacement server was brought in.

how rude

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-13-2011, 05:30 PM:

Isn't it? [Razz]

That's how it was explained to me. I'm not up on DC ( obviously ) on a technical level so layman's terms it is!

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-13-2011, 06:43 PM:

Why do the server and projector need to talk to each other? Does a DVD player need to talk to a TV? Of course not and it is no worse off because of it. All the server needs to do is embed the picture format in the video signal (scope, flat, 3D, 2D, fps, etc) and then the projector automatically sets itself up for that format. How hard is that This would not take up much information or bandwidth at all. Multisync computer monitors from the 90's are apparently more advanced than a typical cinema projector because they could adapt on the fly without the BS. All of this back and forth talk does no good. But of course the industry has unnecessarily over-thought the equipment. What a surprise. The joke's on them.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-14-2011, 01:35 AM:

Joe, that' bullshit. Even the cheapest DVD Player needs to 'talk' to a TV - it either needs HDMI or analog setup properly, and the TV needs to be configured for the proper input and signal options, and in fact, HDMI itself does a lot of talking.
I don't want cinema to adhere to the same rules as domestic TV gear.

What happened there happens often on festivals - gear being installed on a temporary basis without enough testing and/or competent people at hand on a tight schedule.
There are 50.000 digital installs worldwide now. Sure they are all belly up...
Someone just took a risk there and lost.

- Carsten

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-14-2011, 01:50 AM:

Server and projector need to 'marry' to all intents and purposes, this is to establish a secure connection between them for link decryption porpoises.
Also on Series II's you have the security logs downloaded from server to projector, what can go awry, but it is not immediately obvious, is these logs not downloading.
The projector has limited memory for these logs, and once that memory is full, the projector will lock out until said logs are downloaded. This can be a real PITA, without secure connection to the projector, the server will not download logs, with the log memory full the projector will not marry up to the server... See where this is going? Yup, round and round and round.

The logs must be downloaded by a server, you can't simply connect a laptop and delete or download them. If you can't get the server to download them then it's change a card in the projector time, for one with empty log memory, then quickly sort out your downloading issue so it doesn't happen again.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-14-2011, 03:13 AM:

You oughta see the "marriages" that SONY goes through between projector and its media block...

Posted by Walter Rabey (Member # 5968) on 10-18-2011, 04:15 AM:

I remember laughing when reading over the manual for one of our Christie CP2200's. In the Marriage (Handshake) section, the manual attempts to instruct the installer to 'take a bright light and very carefully inspect' all parts and latches to the projector's secure area which holds the projector's decryption keys. Id be surprised if anyone has ever actually done this.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 10-18-2011, 12:02 PM:

The current Sony SRX is much easier to do re-marriages with now - not the old "call Sony and get an access code" routine of the past. Sony re-marriages are now no harder to do than other manufacturers.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-18-2011, 12:20 PM:

quote: Pete Naples
a secure connection between them for link decryption porpoises.

Yeah, nothing worse than an insecure marine mammal. [Big Grin]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

quote: Carsten Kurz
....in fact, HDMI itself does a lot of talking.....

So true, and a major source of headaches for me in some of my screening rooms....in more than one case, we gave up and went to RGB (I'm using the colloquial term here, not the technical one) because a minor glitch on the playback source caused a lengthy blackout on the screen as the projecor and dvd/blu-ray player renegotiated the HDCP handshake. [Roll Eyes]

One manufacturer made an HDMI switcher that could be "hotdogged" to strip the HDCP and solve the problem, but it is no longer available. [Mad]

Posted by Walter Rabey (Member # 5968) on 10-18-2011, 01:59 PM:

HDCP strippers were popular back in the early days of HDPC because a lot of people still had good DVI displays that did not support this. It's pretty well a thing of the past now. People nowadays just seem to manually remove the copy protection in software for use on older displays (fair use!) or have moved on and just bought a display that supports HDCP.

They are however, still somewhat popular I find for CRT projectors. You will never see one of those factory built with an HDMI port.

Does anyone know what went wrong between the Projector and the Dolby player here? Was it a security interlock that failed? Bad cabling?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-20-2011, 09:29 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Does a DVD player need to talk to a TV?

Indeed they do if you're using an HDMI link. There is a handshake that takes place once the two have talked together and then you have a woorking digital link. Oh and Joe... you guessed it... they are talking about you!

quote: Paul Mayer
Sony re-marriages are now no harder to do than other manufacturers.

Sony's do seem to get divorced more often though...

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-20-2011, 10:24 AM:

Our projector's enigma module died earlier this year. With nobody to "talk to," the controls on the server locked up.

But, in this case, a wholesale projector change-out ought to have cured that. Yes, it is possible that both projectors could have had the same faulty component, but it's not likely.

In both setups, the server and cabling remained the same. That's where I'd start looking for trouble.

But, then, this is only my first year with D-Cinema.

Maybe it was Mynoks... chewing on the power lines..?

And, yeah... HDCP = [Mad]

Posted by David M. Leugers (Member # 2968) on 10-20-2011, 10:02 PM:

My wife and I went to see the latest Woody Allen film this summer at one of the art theaters near us. We had no idea that the theater had changed over to all digital projection. The film started and looked terrible. Soft focus and off colors. Then it quit entirely - for the next 30 minutes. The manager said they have been having problems and to please be patient. They got it going and we were treated to the same crappy image. After it was over the manager gave out free passes. I probably won't use them. The point is this was the first time I experienced a projection issue since 1982 when a film broke in the projector at a theater in Macon, Georgia. Seems this is not all that uncommon with the "perfected" digital projection...