Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Audio Processors for digital/35mm mix.

This is topic Audio Processors for digital/35mm mix. in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-22-2011, 07:27 PM:

I have been looking to change some things around in our sound rack when we switch to digital projection sometime next year.

We plan on keeping one 35mm projector around along with the DA-20 and getting rid of the CP-55. The CP-55 is at least 20 years old and looking to get something new installed with the new projection gear.

What cinema processors are out there that can handle film and digital in one unit without external D/A converters, etc?

The only one I have seen so far seems to be the JSD-80, but am just beginning to look around at what is available.

We have yet to decide on what projector/server combo we will choose, but that should be figured out in the near future. It will most likely be a Barco/Dolby combo or NEC/GDC combo.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-22-2011, 07:38 PM:

All in one, you have only 2 choices.

Ultra Stereo JSD80

Dolby CP650 - Note only model CP650 has on board AES/EBU inputs. It would also replace your DA20.

Another option, Dolby CP750 or USL JSD100. Hook your existing CP55/DA20 into the multichannel input, flatten the Eq on the CP55 and set its output levels.

Posted by Alan Gilbertson (Member # 242) on 10-22-2011, 07:56 PM:

DataSat AP20, you can also hook up your DA20 to it. You will need to add there optional film card to it as well. The AP20 should take you well into the future as it is capable of 16 channels.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 10-22-2011, 08:50 PM:

I have been using the QSC DCP300 - 16 channels of digital in, up to 10 channels analog in for the old system, built in monitor and crossover; or if you need a bit of economy the DCP100 is a little cheaper by reducing to only 10 channels of digital in and 8 analog.

For a one peice unit with both digital in and film processing the JSD-80 is a good choice.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 10-22-2011, 10:14 PM:

We did what Pete suggested and connected the outputs from our existing analog processor into the 6 channel analog input of the JSD100. It works fine. The JSD 100 is really a versatile device. The new configuration software is great. Also, Our amp rack is located behind the screen so its great to have balanced analog outputs on the JSD 100. We used to have balancing transformers connected to each output on our processor. Glad to be rid of those.

I''m more impressed with the improvement in our sound (over 35mm DTS) than I am with the picture quality of our new digital projector. Picture looks great, but no better than an excellent 35mm print.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-22-2011, 10:29 PM:

Is there anything the JSD-80 cannot do that the JSD-100 can?

It would seem better to eliminate the CP-55 from the equation and go with the JSD-80, if only to simplify things. I guess I'll have to get both manuals side by side and do some reading.

I'll also have to look into the AP20.

Thanks everyone for all of the information.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-22-2011, 10:51 PM:

Adam, contact Bevan at Moving Images Technology, he gets a lot of CP-650's pulled from digital upgrades, and check the "Equipment" forum here as Brad may also still have some available at a great price.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-23-2011, 12:38 AM:

Or, even with the USL ECi60 digital interface can hook up to USL JPX1000 and Dolby 500's with proper breakout cards from Odyssey.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-23-2011, 03:35 AM:

I didn't mention the AP20, as we simply overlook it on grounds of its eye watering pricetag. [Eek!]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-23-2011, 04:39 AM:

quote:
I didn't mention the AP20, as we simply overlook it on grounds of its eye watering price tag.

The AP-20 is interesting alternative choice: fair price, may be equipped by an analog card for 35mm+digital installation, good sound processing, lots of connectivity, no trouble on the field once installed.

In France, we deploy lots of them, along with Dolby products.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-23-2011, 05:50 AM:

Not here Oliver! It's WAY overpriced.

There is also the name, customers ask, who the hell are Datasat?

Dolby sells on the name, I have many customers who are not interested in anything but the Double D.

USL is making good ground here too.

DTS was popular, of course Datasat is DTS, sort of, but it's all bu impossible to get someone to take a product that is a; unheard of, b; moer expensive than anything else.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-23-2011, 07:01 AM:

quote: Pete Naples
Not here Oliver! It's WAY overpriced.

Overpriced?! How far is an AP-16 16 channel there in USD?
In Europe, range around 3,5-4 K€ (4,8 to 5,5 K$).

quote: Pete Naples

Dolby sells on the name, I have many customers who are not interested in anything but the Double D.

I see the picture... the same in most european countries. But DTS did some marketing some years ago, and as their AP-20 is now recognized as a "not that bad" product, it's entering the market somewhat easily.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-23-2011, 10:10 AM:

Last and only price I saw on the AP20, admittedly it was over a year ago now, put it in the £12,000 ballpark. More than a fully loaded CP650! Without SR.D playback and from a name customers don't recognise. Even with all the bells whistles it has, which most people will consuider just that, bells and whistles, that's a lot of ££, when there are perfectly adequate alternatives for a lot less ££.

I must admit I did look at the Datasat sales guy in disbelief. This was at Expo in Amsterdam.
Maybe they 've adjusted their pricing now, but it was a total not starter for us. One must bear in mind that those who make the buying decisions do not do the using, nor do they really care if the product has lots of toys on board, as long as it fulfills the minimum functions.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-23-2011, 10:21 AM:

quote: Pete Naples
Last and only price I saw on the AP20, admittedly it was over a year ago now, put it in the £12,000 ballpark

Ouch!!! that's sound like a nonsense price. The guy you asked to may have been drunk or something like that? [Smile]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 10-23-2011, 11:55 AM:

Sadly not, he was definitely serious!

I suspecgt their sales bosses had not really looked at what the market will pay, thing is sadly, you only get one chance, and to pluck a number like that out of the air as your best price... You blew it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-23-2011, 08:24 PM:

When I heard the price of the AP-20 I didn't even bother to look. I have no doubt it is very good sounding but it had be for what it sells for! God help us all if we ever need 16 channels of audio in a mainstream movie theater... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-23-2011, 08:27 PM:

quote: Pete Naples
Sadly not, he was definitely serious!

I suspecgt their sales bosses had not really looked at what the market will pay, thing is sadly, you only get one chance, and to pluck a number like that out of the air as your best price... You blew it.

hum... I understand.

Nevertheless, you should have a check now, DTS prices has been reviewed and are now more in phase with the market : AP-20 prices range around 5 K$USD now.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-23-2011, 11:06 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

When I heard the price of the AP-20 I didn't even bother to look. I have no doubt it is very good sounding but it had be for what it sells for! God help us all if we ever need 16 channels of audio in a mainstream movie theater...

Well, it helps anyway: bi-amp, or 3-amp, filters... and for 500 $USD difference between 8 or 16 channel... could be an idea to be ready for more.

But I agree, for most screens, a CP750 or a 8 chan AP-20 are far sufficient, and range in the same price category - at least in Europe.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-24-2011, 07:46 PM:

Why is it so important that everything be in one box? What is so terribly wrong with adding a DMA8 Plus or the Ultra-Stereo DA converter to your favorite cinema processor?

I recently saw the JSD-80, which is an interesting unit, but it looks as if setting it up with a DA20 would be doable, but not much fun.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-24-2011, 08:40 PM:

You can certainly use existing analog stereo processors as long as they have 6 channals input. Seems like many of my customers want to retire theor 20 year old JS series Ultra Stereos though when digital is installed.

The JSD-80 is a great unit and uber reliable. I've never had one even so much as burp out of a gazillion installed units since it appeared many years back. I even have a location that has two USL DSP-60 digital processors still chugging along nicely. I am installing a bunch of JSD-100's over the next two weeks and one JSD-80 where the owner wants to keep one 35mm projector in place. Note that the JSD-100 is also capable of 16 channels with just an inexpensive upgrade card and can be fully controled by ethernet, RS-232 or 422.. It also has a built in spectrum analyzer. AND! It is about half the price of the AP-20!! JSD-100 is strictly digital only... no analog. As for crossovers I prefer to use external for bi or tri amp. It seems like crossovers go obsolete much quicker than do cinema processors. So I keep them seperate.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 10-24-2011, 09:18 PM:

The main reason is that our CP55 is over 20 years old, has been modified at least 3 times for upgrades, and looks to be no longer supported by Dolby. Not that it has had any problems though. If I already had a CP650 I probably wouldn't even think about replacing it.

Also, pricing the DMA8, it more than 50% of the price of a new JSD 80 that could do everything in one unit.

Honestly, we may only use 35mm once or twice a year after the digital installation (maybe less). It is nice to have some sort of backup for the next few years while film is still available if say the digital system were down for an extended period of time, I could still book a film print.

Thanks for all of the information everyone.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-25-2011, 12:14 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

(...)Note that the JSD-100 is also capable of 16 channels with just an inexpensive upgrade card and can be fully controled by ethernet, RS-232 or 422.. It also has a built in spectrum analyzer. AND! It is about half the price of the AP-20!! JSD-100 is strictly digital only... no analog.

Marc, you write that a JSD-100 is half the price of the AP-20: what is the price for a JSD-100 16 channels?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 10-25-2011, 12:46 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
As for crossovers I prefer to use external for bi or tri amp. It seems like crossovers go obsolete much quicker than do cinema processors. So I keep them seperate.

How do crossovers go obsolete?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-25-2011, 08:04 PM:

quote: Olivier Lemaire
Marc, you write that a JSD-100 is half the price of the AP-20: what is the price for a JSD-100 16 channels?

Yes, over here that is true. Best to check with your local dealer for your price in Europe.

quote: Ron Lacheur
How do crossovers go obsolete?

Seems like better ones appear magically every few years from most manufacturers... Because of new technology mostly. All companies have had x-overs out that are now not servicable. The most stable part of the sound end of things has been the main processor itself. They seem to stay arond for a very long time before a new one comes along.

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-25-2011, 09:08 PM:

What makes one crossover better than another? Isn't this sort of a solved problem? Are there really people who can tell the difference between two competently designed units? I understand the "not serviceable" issue, but do crossovers really fail on a regular basis?

What do these fancy units do that a (for example) Rane unit (which seems pretty common in many installations, though not so much for cinema) does not do?

Is it wrong to assume that most modern electronics (processors, crossovers, amps) are resonably decent and that the room and the speakers are the major cause of sound quality differences among theatres?

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 10-26-2011, 03:06 AM:

quote:

quote: Olivier Lemaire

Marc, you write that a JSD-100 is half the price of the AP-20: what is the price for a JSD-100 16 channels?
Yes, over here that is true.

hum... What is the price "over here" for a JSD-100 16 channels please?

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Best to check with your local dealer for your price in Europe.

I'm gonna check and will report.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-26-2011, 03:16 PM:

Do you want genuine Dolby Noise-Reduction for your analog sound?