Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: subtitles in digital

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Posted by Steve Yamane (Member # 6613) on 11-09-2011, 06:34 PM:

Any ideas what is happening when the subtitles suddenly disappear
from a film that's digital?

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 11-09-2011, 07:14 PM:

hello and welcome

a) from my very limited knowledge it can mostly happen on digital when the subtitling is done on the projector end. If you have the subtitle engine on the server end, try using that instead of letting TI CineCanvas do the job.

b) it can apparently also happen when "non-regular" characters appear. check if it always happens in the same spot, search the xmls for the culprit, then inform you distributor.

c)It would be most helpful if you specify which projector and server you are using.

d) this should be moved to the Digital subforum.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 11-12-2011, 12:55 AM:

Hey,

We've been wondering the same thing. We had a theory of the CineCanvas system just malfunctioning and thought maybe it could be turned back on during the run, but finally once we got a test situation it didn't work that way. So we have no idea what's wrong either, sorry. Rebooting usually takes care of the problem but it's annoying having to do that.

We have three Barcos, one series II and two I's (DP1200's) with Dolby servers and they all have this problem, the series II more than the others. Maybe happens once in every two weeks, sometimes three days in a row and sometimes a month goes without an incident.

We have not figured out any pattern to how and when this occurs, only that it's usually from the beginning of a clip, not in the middle of a feature. Sometimes just starting the clip over helps, but rebooting is the surer fix. Just, as said, annoying.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 11-12-2011, 03:16 AM:

Elise,
try changing the network cable between the projector and server.

Try to find a very good one.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-12-2011, 04:19 AM:

Make sure that the TI firmware is up to date. As they seem to have done a lot of work on CineCanvas lately.

Series 1 current is version 15.01

Series 2 is on 3.1.324

In the early days of Series II, we saw a lot of DCPs which the subtitles simply didn't work. This was down to missing fonts and other bugs in the CineCanvas part of the TI firmware. it would appear that if the DCP calls for a particular font/size, and the projector doesn't have this, the CineCanvas just stops working.

On current firmwares I've heard no reports of subtitling errors, for some months now.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-12-2011, 05:09 AM:

If one looks at what is fixed in the various updates...CineCanvas seems to be on damn near every one for TI. One would think that moving this sort of thing would not be so hard.

A better scheme would be to have every projector have a default font...in the absence of a designated font, it uses its default font. The same with the player...it should always send the ASCII characters and if there is a designated font to send...so be it...but in absence of that, just send the ASCII and let the projector use its default font.

Readable text is better than no text.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-12-2011, 05:20 AM:

Amen to that Steve!

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 11-12-2011, 06:33 AM:

Not so long ago we had some issues with subtitles.
The probleme was that they were in version 1.1 in stead of version 1.0. (dolby servers)

Not sure why or how this changes much. But why always changing thing that work? Somebody can explain what the differences are between both?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-12-2011, 10:08 AM:

It is true, as Steve mentioned, that a lot of work is being done currently on subtitling and closed caption/HI/VI support, also by SMPTE. I guess we will have to live with some issues for a while. I think the server generated titles can still be activated on the Doremi servers. Maybe that is a more stable solution. Doremi implemented it when series II in the beginning had no CineCanvas at all. And now it certainly depends a lot on TI software version in the projectors.

- Carsten

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 11-12-2011, 12:22 PM:

I'm in the same boat as Elise with the subtitle (un)reliability.

The latest TI update has not proven to be any more reliable than the .314 release was and has problems with font rendering (which looks something like this simulated picture - pay attention to the letter "a"):

When the subtitle failure occurs, I've spied something along the lines of "NO SUBTITLE" being logged on the Dolby DSS200 log console (Ctrl-Alt-F5), so maybe the problem is with the server software rather than ICP software after all.

We are still running 4.2.1(3), which is at least three GA releases behind the current version (4.3.5(6), I think...). Upgrading might improve the subtitle situation, but would introduce potential boot volume corruptions and other show stopper level issues I don't need anywhere near the operations I support.

I mean, seriously, talk about "out of the pan and into the fire"... I'll be upgrading servers as soon as it's either enforced due to compliancy reasons OR Dolby does a release which doesn't [sex]

you, thank you very much.

<rant>I think all these problems are due to the subtitler apparently being nothing more than a mandatory evil for the software makers (yes, that would be you Dolby & TI) -- a feature that is a mandatory part of the DCI spec, but is virtually unused on their largest market (USA).

If it happens to be a mission critical feature on *your* particular market -- well, sucks to be you!

The fact that Series II projectors were on market for 6 months or so without a working Cinecanvas implementation serves to illustrate just how unimportant it's considered to be.

Take note how web browser makers bend over backwards to make sense of just about any stinking heap of [bs]

HTML and display at least SOMETHING.
</rant>

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-12-2011, 01:33 PM:

There is the problem right there! It isn't English! Perhaps if you needed English text it would work [Wink]

As to Dolby's releases...you are only one GA behind. The current GA is 4.3.0 (36). 4.3.5 (6) is not going be the next GA but it is a good version. 4.3.0.36 was mostly good...the only problem I've had with it is a potential corruption on boot up. It is VERY random (I've had exactly two servers have it happen) and one needs to run the "Upgrade" disc on it to fix it. The problem is corrected in 4.3.5.6 but I think there are one or two additional tweaks before the GA. Note, the next release will also allow remoting in via VNC.

4.2.1.3 was a good release but the auto-3D feature of 4.3.0.36 was the "sell" for me to make the jump.

As to the whole subtitling thing...it has not come up for me...being in the USA market so I can't comment on ANY version or system's particular reliability on it.

The whole rushing of series II machines to market one can not blame any of the player manufacturers...they were having to design software without any means to test it on actual units. Series II was definitely rushed and forced. VPF plans were pretty much tied to it. For me, and many others, it was a nightmare as both projector and server software was changing almost daily.

Believe it or not, we are STILL dealing with the issues that started in 2010...every ICP that came out before TI version 3.0.x should be on a suicide watch...any one of them can crash and is actively trying to do so as a corruption builds. Barco and Christie have a plan/procedure to reflash the ICP and start it on 3.x.x and not have the problem (we are waiting on NEC to have theirs). Series II was definitely not ready for prime-time in many areas, not just Subtitling, when it came out.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-12-2011, 02:32 PM:

Steve...

Since the automatic update appeared on the NEC DCC app in conjunction with SP-3 I have not had any real issues loading firmware into ICP's or with them being stable or not afterwords. I have taken well over a dozen ICP's all the way from version 1 firmware up to the current version and all of them are stable and another 50 or so projectors from 3.00 up to the current version. I had three or four ICP's that were difficult to get to load but they DID eventually take the update... on perhaps the third or fourth try and they too have been just fine. Mike's was one of those, his original firmware upon installation was version 1.0! The DCC also still offers manual update and if an update hangs at one of the levels NEC reccomends that you do that level manually as it will eventually load just fine.

I have had more trouble installing Gore Boards in Series 1 Christie's than any other single problem or issue out there... Talk about flakey!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-12-2011, 03:49 PM:

Mark,

The ICP problem is not about taking updates or not it is about an inherent corruption problem in the ICP software 2.x.x and it affects ALL ICPs that had firmware less than 3.x.x...NEC included and, if you ask, you will get it confirmed by NEC. NEC does not, as yet, have a field reflash procedure for ICP.

I have had NECs with SP3.x.x cease to communicate with the the projector. Though the DCC was unable to do anything about it (but confirm it couldn't update), I was able to get the ICP to take a ICP firmware update to restore communication directly...However, it has been confirmed by NEC that while I got the projector going, that the underlying problem remains.

The difficult to take an update is indicative of the problem...getting the SP to take did not fix it, however. The only thing that is going to fix it is to REFLASH the ICP back to nothing and then reload EVERYTHING back on. The more times you reboot the projector, the greater your chances of corruption.

-Steve

Posted by Jorgen Larsen (Member # 5302) on 11-12-2011, 04:45 PM:

Here in Denmark are several cinemas hit by this text problem. It is a big problem and everyone is trying to solve as soon as possible. Here in Denmark has several cinemas restored texts by restarting the system and more strange, remove certain trailers especially ID:A. Maybe it's a coincidence that it helped to remove the trailer, but it helped. Poorly copied content delivered on USB sticks and small hard drives instead of CRU drives may be the problem in conjunction with a highly sensitive Cine canvas. We are waiting here in Denmark for an update to cinecanvas from TI. Asia and Japan are also aware of this problem as it is global. TI must urgently come up with a solution to this problem.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-13-2011, 08:51 AM:

Steve.... I just have not seen that problem and all of my customers do reboot theor projectors every day. The ones on VPF leave them on standby though as you know and the rest power down all the way. It will be interesting to see if NEC does indeed come out with a fix... for a problem I have yet to see in any of the ~50 projectors I have installed. If there is really a problem to me this seems like it should rest in the hands of T.I. and not the individual projector manufacturer... all the ICP's are more or less the same T.I. circuit anyway and the NEC ICP board is actually built by T.I. for NEC.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-13-2011, 10:23 AM:

Each projector company loads their own baseline in (how it is delivered when factory fresh). It is indeed a TI issue but, thus far, only NEC has not addressed it. While YOU may not have had an ICP crash (and I have yet to get one so bad I couldn't recover it), it does not negate the existence of the problem, that TI acknowledges.

It is something you should be concerned about, since you have so many NECs and they are the only company that does not, yet, have a recovery plan.

-Steve

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-13-2011, 02:27 PM:

Note...the problem ONLY affects ICPs that had version 2.x.x software on them...any that started with 3.x.x will not have the problem. This will affect most NEC's installed before January 2011. Starting with SP 2.32 ICP version 3 was used. SP 2.3 still had 2.2.291 and if you had subtitle issues 2.2.294.

Other brands will be less affected (date wise) by a few months only because they were quicker to release the later ICP versions.

-Steve

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-13-2011, 04:35 PM:

We had reports here in Germany as well about unusual high numbers of NEC ICP failures. Glad they seem to have solved it. As they know about the problem - shouldn't they have rushed to solve this for all machines with these problemativ software versions? I heard of many NECs with their ICPs being replaced after a failure.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-13-2011, 05:06 PM:

They HAVEN'T solved the problem (NEC). The solution exists for Barco and Christie, not NEC, though the procedure will be the same...reflash the ICP with a factory base line and then reload one's saved settings.

This is not an NEC thing...it can hit ANY DLP series II projector installed in 2010...updating firmware will NOT fix it.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-13-2011, 08:13 PM:

It will be interesting to see if it does hit any of the 12 or so projectors I installed with the 2.x.x versions in them. I will be visiting two more in the morning here in Elko that have actually been running just fine. The only issue so far which caused an NEC to stop deaad in it's tracks was the enigma error I told you about the other day at U6. That did indeed stop the projector dead in it's tracks, red lights and all. An update did fix the issue and I have now updated all other projectors out there with the latest 3.004 release except the two I'll be doing in the morning. Interestingly this release was a fairly large T.I. update and also had an enigma update in it... go figure.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-14-2011, 07:02 PM:

Pssst. SP 3.3 is now the latest! 3.004 is hold hat [Wink]

From what I've been told, it isn't a matter of "if" but when. I have yet to have any of the machines I'm responsible for (except a single NEC that claimed ICP communication error) completely crash...I had one Barco that was in the process of it though! The ICP started to not take commands and give proper feedback. When I went to do the "recovery" it did require doing the manual "boot mode" procedure...which is a big pain if your fingers are about 8" long with very thin fingers so you only press the correct button!

-Steve

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-14-2011, 07:33 PM:

Here is a pdf describing the issue and solution - and it is from Barco:

http://www.tristatetheatre.com/InfoT988.pdf

- Carsten

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 12-08-2011, 10:56 AM:

ICP Release 3.2.340 (as well as updates for Communicator, Communicator Touch Panel and the DP2K/DP4K sw package) landed yesterday on the Barco support web.

ICP fixes include "Corrected an issue causing the rendering of some characters to be dim or jagged when used multiple times in a string", which sounds like this release should fix the font rendering issue I reported earlier in this thread.

Mostly this set of updates seems to improve HFR support, though.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-08-2011, 12:16 PM:

I think I've mentioned elsewhere...that it seems that most ICP updates somehow address CineCanvas/caption/subtitles in some manner. You'd think putting text out for a digital display would be so hard!

Note, NEC has now FINALLY issued its Recovery package so all three DLP companies have one. If your projector was installed in 2010, then I strongly suggest you have your tech perform the recovery procedure as per manufacturer's instructions for the particular brand of projector. This should be treated as a proactive fix rather than wait for the inevitable.

-Steve

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-27-2012, 11:03 AM:

How do I know if my system is using Cine Canvas or the DSS200 to generate the subtitles?

We had a glitch where one show started without subtitles. The previous show (same movie) played fine.

(FWIW, simply restarting the 2nd show brought the subtitles back.)

On the projector (Barco DP2K-32B) I looked at the Cine Canvas tab and it says Subtitle Status is Enabled. Metadata Status is Disabled. (Not sure where this would be indicated on the DSS200.)

I'm digging through the manual now but I'd like to hear more about this issue...

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 01-27-2012, 03:33 PM:

AFAIK, DSS200 doesn't have tje capability of rendering subtitles and "burning" them to the image stream going to the projector.

So, CineCanvas it is.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-27-2012, 05:54 PM:

I found the following message in the DSS200 "Screen Server" logs:

"There was a subtitle error, will disable subtitles"
(priority: warn / thread: TIProjector)

Date/Time stamp associates it with the troubled screening.

I started the movie a few times today and it ran fine each time. I could not duplicate the problem.

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 01-28-2012, 08:15 AM:

Sporadic and un-repeatable - that seems to sum up the nature of this particular beast.

So at least in this case your server noticed there was a problem. Did you happen to take note at what point this was - show already in progress or during prep (when the Show Manager shows "Selecting...")?

Logging more diagnostics information would have been the sensible thing to do here (anybody from Dolby lurking here, take note), maybe then this would eventually get fixed instead of everybody just shrugging, blaming solar flares and rebooting - which seems to be just about the only fix when you find yourself in this situation.

All in all, D-Cinema software is still severely "under-cooked". Just this week I've had the dubious pleasure of personally experiencing one case of the amazingly vanishing subtitles and *two* cases of sound and picture getting out of sync when ingesting content while a show is running.

With the audio sync problem, in both cases the server/mediablock logs showed a "MainApp;Streaming.RunningSyncHandler:Not enough frames in the vbv buffer to be decoded" and then "CPL Validate Successful" within less than one second from each other, CPU or I/O saturation being a likely culprit. I suppose one shouldn't be ingesting content while a show is running, but this has never been a problem before [Confused]

The reason for the subtitle problems, alas, remains as elusive as ever.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-28-2012, 08:48 AM:

I know I've mentioned it before...it seems that TI does something to CineCanvas in just about every update. Just what is so hard about putting text up?

I recently was sent to a theatre that was not putting up text...come to find that any projector running TI's ICP 2.2.294 would not put up the text. And, as I have posted before...anybody that has had ICP 2.x.x on their projector will eventually have a ICP corruption issue (unless you run the Recovery package for your specific projector brand...All three have a package now).

Running the ICP recovery put on version 3.x.x (3.2.340, I think is current though I think NEC is on 3.3 of some sort). Problem solved. Note too...everyone will need to load ICP 3.2.340 or greater to be able to handle the HFR movies coming out...even if your player also handles it.

I just don't get why Captions are so hard when TVs/DVDs...etc have been doing it for decades.

Perhaps it has to do with the delivery method...the files are stored as separate text...which I kind of understand since that means each movie is not tied to a specific language. Then again, if the regular audio files had this same issue, the problem would be addressed MUCH faster.

-Steve

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-11-2012, 01:08 PM:

It happened again yesterday. Show tested fine during the afternoon. Alas, no subtitles at showtime. [Frown]

This time I did not see anything in the Screen Server logs (DSS200).

However, I did note that during the "down time" -- between testing and showtime -- the Barco projector logs jump from the current date (May 10) to Dec 31. So it kind-of looks like it may have rebooted. But all by itself?

Unfortunately, the projector log does not go back far enough to compare the earlier (January) event.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-11-2012, 02:01 PM:

Do the projector have no way to set the time/date through NTP upon reboot? Because if it's an issue of having the server and projector mismatching on the dates, that would be something to look into.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-11-2012, 02:13 PM:

What kind of font format is CineCanvas using? Something proprietary or a mainstream format like TrueType or OpenType?

The OpenType font format can support far larger character sets than TrueType or Postscript Type 1, up to 65,536 glyphs. Even with that capability it is impossible for a single typeface font file to support all the world's languages. Any "one size fits all" solution for displaying subtitles anywhere in the world would need a serious set of typefaces to cover every language along with the appropriate setup on both the provider and end user level. It sounds to me like this isn't happening in digital cinema installations.

Computer typefaces can have tremendous differences from one font file to the next. Some have built in support for Latin, Cyrillic and Greek character sets and appropriate accents to cover all the languages in Europe. Most fonts distributed in the United States are geared only for the Latin alphabet.

Some of the commercial font files I have feature lots of design extras (small capitals character sets, alternate characters, swash characters for script faces, etc.). It's great for a language using the Latin alphabet, but it sucks if you need it to spell out something in Korean or Tamil characters.

Not only do the right font files have to be present, but someone has to correctly make the subtitle file(s) and include that with the DCP.

quote: Steve Guttag
I just don't get why Captions are so hard when TVs/DVDs...etc have been doing it for decades.

Television sets, DVD & Blu-ray discs and disc players are all make to work in specific regions of the world. There is no single retail Blu-ray disc or player that is going to work flawlessly for every international market.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-11-2012, 02:52 PM:

Synchronizing the date is the 11th step in a process that begins with "main - starting application (version x.x.x)"

Obtaining an IP address is the 8th step, so it probably has to wait for that to happen before it can sync date/time. I wonder what the clock source is..?

(FWIW 18 seconds elapse between step 1 and step 11.)

After the date is set, the next step is to login the TI link decryptor.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2012, 03:56 PM:

Typically, the font is transferred with the DCP (each "reel" is supposed to have its associated font file). 99-100% of the time it seems to be Bobby's favorite...Arial.ttf!

The problem I find is that it botching the subtitle this is as Manny describes...completely random...it will work, and then it won't If you look at the logs...there seems to be this pre-disposition that if the subtitle thing doesn't work right away or glitches...the system turns them off and stops trying.

I hear that the industry is going to move from the "interop" standard to the SMPTE standard that "should" improve subtitle reliability. It just seems hokeyer than it should. Again, every ICP update seems like they are trying to make it work so it could affect any DLP based projector (Don't know about Sony).

It really shouldn't be this hard.

Manny, to re-establish subtitles...did you just stop the player (by using the actual stop (not pause) and restart or did you reboot?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-11-2012, 04:16 PM:

Yes, I hate Arial. It's an ugly Frankensteined hodge podge that grabs style cues from Helvetica, Akzidenz Grotesk, Univers and News Gothic without generating anything eye-pleasing. And it's made to fit the same default tracking of "old" Helvetica found on a lot of Mac-based computers over the years.

If they're using a basic TrueType version of Arial that could be part of the problem. Lots of computers running Windows XP or earlier have the TrueType version of Arial installed. PCs running Vista or Win7 have the OpenType version which features a much expanded Unicode-based character set. If someone authors subtitles basing them on arial.otf and the server is playing the titles via arial.ttf chances are good a lot of characters may be dropped or wrong characters are displayed.

Given how much money movie productions spend on production and advertising it would seem like they could pony up a little scratch to license better subtitle fonts than Arial, maybe even use something thematically appropriate for the movie instead of something ugly and generic.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2012, 05:01 PM:

See now...this brings up a bit of controversy in the caption market...the DCP is supposed to have its OWN font file with it and a file for EACH real. As such, the movie should not be able to have insufficient front description since the movie can have any font it wants/needs.

However, some authoring systems are quite sloppy and do NOT include the font file...this is in violation of the DCI spec...Dolby will simply not show a caption since there is no font file...Doremi and GDC will have cached the Arial.ttf from a previous file and substitute it...in violation of DCI spec...this will give the Dolby player the illusion of being fussy (for following the rules...if you want text on the screen...give me the text)...

However, what Manny is describing is something completely different. This is a VERY random occurrence where just one show (not movie) will either not show the text or will have issues with the text. I have one art house that has had two botched shows now out of about 155 and counting. Of those two, they were different titles running on different servers and different projectors...all other shows of those titles ran without incident. So we are down to 1% issue and falling but even that is way too much. There shouldn't be ANY subtitle/caption issue in this day and age...the technology should be simple, not complicated. And, quite frankly, a "default" font should be in the DCI spec so a player can fall back on that if none are present in the DCP...furthermore if one is trying to have subtitles, the system should try like heck to resync if there is an issue not just throw up its hands and thing "oh well."

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-11-2012, 05:59 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Manny, to re-establish subtitles...did you just stop the player (by using the actual stop (not pause) and restart or did you reboot?

I tried the easiest (least time-consuming) thing first -- stop the movie and then re-start it. That didn't resolve it. (Although this is how we resolved the issue back in January.)

Next, I tried rebooting the projector. Still nothing.

Rebooted the DSS200 -- which takes 6 minutes -- "Transport Not Available."

Rebooted the projector a 2nd time, and it finally worked.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2012, 08:59 PM:

Manny...which software are you running on the DSS200? Also which softwares are you running on your Barcos?

For Dolby, you should be AT LEAST on 4.3.5.9 though you are entitled to 4.3.5.13 as well. For Barco 1.8.85 on the projector a 3.2.340 on the ICP. The Barco software will have the least affect here. It should be noted that 4.3.5.13 will greatly improve the CAT 862 connecting up (transport not found). You will need a KDM for 4.3.5.13 since the mediablock software is changed.

The most current Dolby software is 4.4.0.48 and is DCI compliant...no new features are added on that but restrictions are put in place on Cinelink and the amount of "nudging" that can be done to the secure clock. I see no point in upgrading unless you are required to for VPF arrangements.

Also...please, please...send your logs to Dolby (I'll assist if need be) so if there is a trend as to why this is happening, it can be found.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 05-12-2012, 04:36 AM:

quote: Bobby H.
Given how much money movie productions spend on production and advertising it would seem like they could pony up a little scratch to license better subtitle fonts than Arial, maybe even use something thematically appropriate for the movie instead of something ugly and generic.

That is a superb idea! Obviously the server/projector will not be capable of dishing up brilliant subs like that in Nightwatch/Daywatch but, man, why the hell not make the subs part of the movie experience?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-12-2012, 09:29 AM:

It would be a heck of a lot better than having a computer throw rough looking Arial-based titles on the screen. I have a big problem with Blu-ray players doing the same thing. The type isn't anti-aliased, giving it an ancient console video game look. Player/server generated subtitles usually have default letter spacing which makes the on-screen type look even worse.

With film, the subtitles were baked into the print. Typefaces other than Arial were used and the letter spacing was usually properly adjusted -like what is typically seen on opening and end credits of most movies. If a little more work was put into it a d-cinema server could do a great job with displaying subtitles.

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 05-12-2012, 11:22 AM:

About fonts (from the TI Subtitle Specification document v1.1):

quote:
The LoadFont tag is used to load a TrueType or OpenType font used in the subtitle file from the server. It specifies the font location as an URI (URL) and identifies the font with an ID which is used as the reference in later Font tags. LoadFont, if specified, must precede any Font element and Subtitle element. If no LoadFont element is present in the XML file, then a default font will be used. The LoadFont element has only attributes, and no values, so it can be specified as an empty tag as shown below. Note: In the current version of the spec, only one (1) font can be loaded for a presentation. If more than one font is specified, only the first will be used. In addition, the size of the font must be 640KB or less. Fonts that are larger than 640KB in size may be reduced, see Appendix B for details. These limitations may be increased or eliminated in future releases.

I.e. you can choose not to include a font file and you don't even have to do a LoadFont. But if you don't, then the unspecified "default font" is going to be used - which is likely to be both a) ugly and b) contain only the glyphs necessary to render english text (no umlauts, accents, EURO symbol, etc).

Regarding the use of the Arial font: I'm not actually sure, but I have a feeling this may a copyright violation (Monotype Corporation holds the copyright for Arial). The license does allow you to "temporarily download this font to a printer or other output device to help print content".

The whole debate could be side-stepped by using free fonts, e.g. the Liberation fonts suite.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 05-12-2012, 11:35 AM:

I work on closed captions, not subtitles, but both use the same XML format for the timed text files. I'm on a SMPTE ad hoc group that is very carefully going through the current standard for the timed text files to try to make it more clear and to get more uniform rendering of subtitles by various systems. In addition, ISDCF holds several plugfests each year (another one in a few weeks). A substantial portion of each plugfest is devoted to subtitle rendering. ISDCF Subtitle Compare shows some results from January where differences in rendering are flagged. These were reviewed to determine if there is a problem in implementation or a problem in the standard.

So, there is recognition that there are issues with subtitles, and they're being worked on.

Harold
(designer of USL Closed Captioning System)

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-12-2012, 12:14 PM:

Steve, my software is as follows:

DSS200...............4.2.1 (3)
(I'm installing a version of 4.3 next week. We didn't want to do it in the middle of a semester.)

Barco................1.8.85
TI...................3.2.340
TI Link Decryptor....1.4.19

For something like "Aliens" I like the idea of subtitles appearing on-screen with the "whoosh" of a flamethrower. The words could then burn out just in time for the next phrase to appear.

For "The Exorcist" they could appear to be scratched onto the screen by some unseen evil force, like the words "Help Me" appeared on Regan's tummy.

Or, in "Se7en" they could replace e7ery instance of the letter "V" with a "7"

For musicals - revive the "follow the bouncing ball" idea

3D titles SIMPLY MUST leap off-screen and land in your lap. (That one's a no-brainer.)

I kid! I hate the idea.

It's right up there with fancy menus on DVD's and Blurays that take forever to load and can't be circumvented. Oh, sure! It'll start off innocently enough. (Like CGI.) But it will only be a matter of time before the concept spirals out of control and ends up hindering enjoyment of the actual movie.

Subtitles are a "necessary evil." They are not intended as an integral part of the experience. I just want to be able to read them. That's all.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-12-2012, 02:16 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
It's right up there with fancy menus on DVD's and Blurays that take forever to load and can't be circumvented. Oh, sure! It'll start off innocently enough. (Like CGI.) But it will only be a matter of time before the concept spirals out of control and ends up hindering enjoyment of the actual movie.

Who said anything at all about animating subtitles or applying all sorts of special effects (or even 3D) to them?

The only thing I'm asking is that the subtitles actually look like they used to look when they were baked into film prints. I'm not asking for anything obtrusive. But I absolutely would prefer professional level typesetting like you see in the body copy of a magazine article or something like that. Default spaced Arial does not qualify at all in this regard. It looks like shit on the big screen.

quote: TI Subtitle Specification document v1.1
In addition, the size of the font must be 640KB or less. Fonts that are larger than 640KB in size may be reduced, see Appendix B for details.

Well that's not good. It's easy for an Asian language font file to surpass 640KB in size. For example, Kozuka Gothic Pro, an OpenType font supporting Japanese, Latin, Greek & Cyrillic alphabets (including a few others) is 3.5MB in size. That's one of the fonts that gets installed with Adobe Creative Suite software.

quote: Jussi Siponen
I'm not actually sure, but I have a feeling this may a copyright violation (Monotype Corporation holds the copyright for Arial).

It's possible. But Arial is so common I doubt if Monotype would even want to bother with pursuiing any legal action. With Arial being installed on virtually all Windows-based PCs and quite a few Macs as well it would make it tougher for Monotype to make a case a violation took place. It's a lot easier for a type foundry to prove a violation took place if the font being used is expensive and not bundled in any mainstream OS or office productivity software.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2012, 02:45 PM:

The DCI spec and TI spec are not one and the same. The DCI spec definitely seems to allow for a "default font" and furthermore seem specify what the default font must have in it. Naturally, the default font may not convey the same impression that a specified font will.

That said...it does not seem like this is what is happening.

I'll "settle" for just VERY reliable text, of any quality for now.

-Steve

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-12-2012, 04:10 PM:

This thread is hilarious, in that it sounds exactly like a standard software support issue:

Customer: Feature foo doesn't work. I am running version X of your software.

Vendor: You should be running version Y, patchlevel P. That will fix feature foo.

...time passes...

C: I upgraded to version Y, patchlevel P. Feature foo now works, but features bar and baz are now broken.

V: You should upgrade to version Z, patchlevel Qa17T, which was just released yesterday. That will solve all of your problems.

...time passes...

C: I upgraded to version Z, patchlevel Qa17T. It worked for ten minutes, and then everything crashed and the system will not boot. What should I do.

V: Restore from backups from when you were running version X. We are working on a fix. We will get back to you in two weeks. But it will require upgrades to your firmware and operating system.

I have little patience for vendors who inflict beta-quality software on the public, and then expect their customers to pay for upgrades and support contracts to make the software do what it was supposed to do in the first place. Is this really the future of cinema?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-12-2012, 04:45 PM:

For the time being, I am going to make it a habit to check the projector logs just prior to showtime, for signs of the pesky "reboot" or whatever causes those events to appear in the log.

I'm also monitoring the CineCanvas screen on the Barco touch panel as the show gets underway. When things are working normally, "Subtitle Status" changes from "Disabled" to "Enabled" when the show starts.

I don't know what happens when we have a subtitle failure, but I'm guessing CineCanvas might show Subtitle Status stuck in the "Disabled" state. If that does indeed happen, then at least we have a more convenient means of knowing that there's a problem. We can then stop and restart before anything hits the screen. (All my shows have 17sec of black before dowswer open.)

But this is just something I'm prepared to do "for now." This is no way to live.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2012, 05:37 PM:

Scott...it is this whole subtitle thing that is just so hokie. What has to transpire for it to work is just too complicated. To the best of my knowledge, no vendor has charged to make an existing feature work.

But if you look at the Release notes from TI...it seems like EVERY release they are messing with CineCanvas. As for Dolby (or the others)...they are steadily improving their stuff and getting it the way that customers want. The software updates really do start slowing down once things get stable. When series II first came out...software updates were daily (no kidding). The latest TI software main "feature" is allowing Series II machines HFR 3D. There are always "enhancements and bug fixes" but 3.2.340 came out at the end of 2011. Likewise, Barco's firmware has been at 1.8.85 for about 1/2 a year now...it mostly brought features, not fixes...but like others...they always sneak fixes in there.

The big thing from 4.3.5.9 to 4.3.5.13 is more stable mediablock handshake. 4.3.x.x has been out for quite some time now...4.3.2.2 was the start of "VNC" capabilities on the Dolby (a feature I use only occasionally...I much prefer Jupiter client unless I'm showing a remote client something). 4.3.5.9 fixed a "feature" that was only shown when working with another company's product. So there are various reasons for updated software...fixes normally come along for the ride (unless they are major and affecting the masses). And since Manny would be able to load 4.3.5.13 on for no money...why not?

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 05-12-2012, 05:56 PM:

Regarding fonts, character spacing, etc., one way to get the "burned in" subtitle look is to use png images for each subtitle. Both CineCanvas and SMPTE timed text files allow a subtitle instance to reference an image instead of text. This seems to work well except that currently there may be an issue with some systems if the png is designed for a 4k projector and running on a 2k projector and possibly the reverse. At the plugfest, I saw some really big pngs where the 4k targeted image ended up on a 2k projector.

Harold

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2012, 08:21 PM:

Harold,

You all need to change the p to an s and have a slugfest.

Honestly...I don't give a flying fu.. about the burned in look or the font type...I'll settle for ugly OCR or the like...I want it to WORK EVERY EFFin TIME!!!!!!! Once you all get that happening on EVERY DCI compliant server...then worry about the appearance of a font...because if it does not (reliably) show...it doesn't have an appearance.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-13-2012, 11:11 AM:

The method of using raster-based .png images to display type on screen is just not very practical.

If the software was really good it would work with vector-based OpenType font files and display anti-aliased edges to type on the fly in real time. I don't care about adding effects like drop shadows, block shadows or outlines. It would be nice if the type didn't have the jagged, pixel-laden look of some console video game.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 05-25-2012, 06:09 PM:

Latest variant here:
For a week now, I have a film running a single show every afternoon. -That is: No audience for three days in a raw, so I go to stop the show after ten minutes or so, -whem I'm sure nobody wanna se it today. Every time, I have made this break in the scheduled show, the following show (different film) looses subtitles. -Tonite, I let it run for an empty house, and nexr show (same film as the other days) kept it's subtitles.
Whichcraft or just DSS200 getting girlie-offended [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-25-2012, 06:25 PM:

Interesting pattern. There's no such rhyme or reason when it comes to my setup though.

I always do a quick test-run a few hours before showtime, so I'm frequently stopping the show prematurely. Doesn't seem to be a factor here.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-25-2012, 08:21 PM:

Is there a way to disable subtitles on purpose?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-25-2012, 10:17 PM:

Never tried but I'm betting via CineCanvas it can be done.

Are you all submitting your logs to Dolby on EACH occurrence of a blown subtitle show? I can't emphasize enough the importance of being diligent on this. I will assist in this matter as it is a serious one and the more data collected the better. We are batting now at about 97.2% success. Though after this week we might eek back up to 98.1% success.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-01-2012, 08:39 PM:

Happened again tonight -- this time we lost subtitles DURING show -- until tonight, that had not happened -- if they failed, they failed right from the start.

DSS200 logs indicate that a RAID verification had just taken place, and the Barco log shows "Subtitle Error - File Not Found" around that same time.

This is now the 3rd instance this year. All 3 times I see different things in the logs, so there doesn't seem to be a "magic bullet" for this issue.

Is this happening with other servers/projectors? Or is it limited to the Dolby+Barco combination?

BTW -- followup on my CineCanvas observations -- I checked while the show was still on-screen WITHOUT the subtitles and the subtitle status was still showing as "Enabled" so that isn't as helpful as I hoped it would be.

What I'm doing about this:

Sending logs to Dolby and Barco
Format, Repartition and upgrade Barco Flash Disk, pursuant to Info-T 988
Upgrade DSS200 to current software (4.3.5.x)
Change Ethernet cable between Barco and DSS200 to Shielded (STP)
Wait-n-See...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-02-2012, 11:54 AM:

Manny,

If Info-T 988 is the recovery one...be VERY careful. It will wipe your settings (all). Make sure you clone your system (do a full clone including projector specific presets). At that point, you should be able to recover everything. I have had zero problems with it. The current instructions have you make just an ICP clone...which is fine IF (and only if) you do NOT load the base clone. If you instead load the ICP clone YOU made after the update, then you will be fine. I, on the other hand, make a full projector clone, load in the base clone and then reload the projector clone I made...this will get you all of the latest test patterns too (including 4K ones if you ever upgrade).

-Steve

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-02-2012, 01:49 PM:

Steve,
I'm a bit lost here.

Could you possibly explain what you mean when you say

quote: Steve Guttag
At that point, you should be able to recover everything. I have had zero problems with it. The current instructions have you make just an ICP clone...which is fine IF (and only if) you do NOT load the base clone. If you instead load the ICP clone YOU made after the update, then you will be fine.

Thanks!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-02-2012, 06:28 PM:

Dolby reviewed my logs and they believe I may have a network/connection issue.

I'm going to wait until Tuesday -- when we are "dark" -- and then update software (Barco and Dolby) and replace that UTP Ethernet cable with STP.

quote: Manny Knowles
DSS200 logs indicate that a RAID verification had just taken place, and the Barco log shows "Subtitle Error - File Not Found" around that same time.

BTW the file that the projector lost track of was the arial.ttf file.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-02-2012, 09:30 PM:

Marco,

Not wanting this topic to stray too much...

The current ICP Recovery package from Barco is 1.02. The instructions has one make JUST an ICP clone (see the instructions for more details). However, within the instructions that have the user load a "BASE" file onto the projector after the ICP Recovery program does its thing. The BASE file is what the factory loads on when the projector is new. As such, it will over write all of settings done during installation. If one installs the clone of the ICP files that were made before the update was done, then only your ICP files will be restored and it will work.

Alternately, one can load the BASE files on and then use a projector specific preset clone on. This has the advantage that you get all of what is installed on a current projector.

Note, it is good practice to always have a projector specific preset clone before any serious work (updates included) are done on the projector (or be prepared to reinstall/calibrate everything).

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-03-2012, 01:01 PM:

Thanks Steve,
I have also read the recovery tool instruction and it's very clear now. Thanks and sorry everybody for drifting the topic a little bit!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-12-2012, 09:07 AM:

Getting back to subtitles.....

Here is an update:

Dolby analyzed the log files from the DSS200 and found a number of communication errors between server and projector. (Failed attempts to establish TLS sessions.) To address this, I changed the 50-foot Ethernet cable between projector and the DSS200. The original was unshielded twisted pairs (UTP), so I changed to STP. After a few days, I sent Dolby another set of logs and they wrote back saying that they don't see the connection errors after the cable change.

I don't think this is a total solution to the subtitle issue, but I'm optimistic that my system will now be about as stable as anyone else's, now that I've strengthened this particular weak link in the chain.

Question for the "computer people" -- should we even be using UTP for any length run? I'm not inclined to ever allow it again.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-12-2012, 09:18 AM:

UTP cables run a bit slower max, than STP due to the capacitance of the shield. Apart from that, it might be a good idea for noisy locations.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-12-2012, 11:04 AM:

Sam -- I think you might have mis-typed -- did you intend to say that STP runs slower?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-12-2012, 03:31 PM:

Yup, I got it exactly backwards: got to stop writing before two cups of tea.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-13-2012, 11:18 AM:

Update: Barco released (within the last 24-hours) 1.9.95 of their firmware. Among other things, it is said to improve subtitle reliability.

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 06-15-2012, 08:15 AM:

Excellent!

Still waiting for the Communicator Touchpanel 4.6 to land on Barco's support website before applying the updates ("The enable all features it is recommended to use the combination of ICP 4.0, DP2K/DP4K software 1.9 and Communicator 4.6 as one package.").

The Touchpanel software release typically lags a little behind the PC/Mac/Linux Communicator.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-15-2012, 10:59 AM:

I have heard, unofficially, of issues applying ICP 4.0.420. Proceed with caution.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-15-2012, 11:54 AM:

Proceed with caution indeed [Wink]

Posted by Jussi Siponen (Member # 5572) on 06-29-2012, 07:12 AM:

I've now installed the updates on two C series projectors and heard of installation on one B series projector:

- No issues in the installation process itself.
- On the C series machines, LENS files had to be recreated -- picture was all over the screen and walls with projector complaining not being able to reach lens target.
- The LENS issue did not occur on the B series projector.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 06-29-2012, 12:18 PM:

Given that my 32B needs constant tweaking to keep the focus sharp, I'm actually looking forward to remaking all of my lens files after upgrading the software. Hopefully they will "stick" this time around.

BTW still no connectivity errors since the cable change. Fingers crossed!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2012, 03:12 PM:

I have found hat with ICP 4.0.420...on really should use the "Install Me first 4.0" if coming from ANY version of 3.x.x or lower. My success rate is much higher than others in doing so. I believe Barco firmware 1.9 addresses some lens calibration issues in addition to subtitle issues.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 06-29-2012, 04:49 PM:

100% success rate on the ICP update using the 'installmefirst', regardless of if it's officially required or not.

100% failure rate doing the update without the 'installmefirst'

No brainer really.

The additional timing info now available in the Video Path tests is quite interesting, the improved features when calibrating light and colours are good too.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-20-2013, 06:04 PM:

Update -- No subtitle failures since changing the Ethernet cable to shielded -- also Dolby and Barco software have been updated.

(Barco update did not resolve my drifting focus, so I'm still remaking files on a regular basis.)

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-20-2013, 07:23 PM:

If you are on Dolby 4.4.2 or higher and Barco 1.9.104...I've yet to hear of subtitles going away (or staying away). Barco did some extensive reworking on the path for the subtitles in 1.9. Dolby, in 4.2 and beyond attack it from their end by noting if the subtitles stop being asked for to try and re-establish them within 30-seconds. So, between the two, it should be MUCH more robust.

Don't know what to say about your focus drift. I've seen it in all projector but it normally takes a month or two before it shows up enough to be annoying. Have you installed the lens stability kit? That "may" help with focus drift on your machine. Since focus is a function of lens mounting plate, having pressure on the top of the focus rack may tend to hold it in the proper place better.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-20-2013, 10:01 PM:

What is this lens stability kit you speak of Steve? Is it for the Invision lenses?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-21-2013, 06:35 AM:

No...the stability kit (which is only needed for earlier "B" projectors) is a spring loaded apparatus that applies pressure to the top of the lens mount via ball bearings. Since the whole lens mounts moves fore/aft for focus and since it is entirely supported from the bottom, the lens mount was/is susceptible to vibrations. By applying pressure to the top of the mount, these vibrations can be reduced.

I would think that the InVision lenses would exaggerate the negative effects since they are so heavy and their center of mass is outside of the projector.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-21-2013, 10:13 AM:

Brad -- here's the part number

BME K LENS STABILIZER UPGRADE
E-Item: R8760143K

There is a sweet spot with this -- too loose or too tight, and you'll reveal the vibration.

My lens is an InVision product.

Barco 1.9.95
Dolby 4.3.5.13

Unless we're actually experiencing problems, I'm reluctant to update software mid-semester.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-21-2013, 11:10 AM:

The sweet spot will vary based on lens and down angle too. I would not call it "ideal" but a kludge-fix.

As to software...1.9.95 was the biggest hurdle (time wise and could also revel/cause corrupt lens files created with earlier versions. 1.9.104 is current and brings desired improvements...no negatives that I am aware.

4.3.5.13 is not as stable as 4.3.5.9, in my opinion. Note, a KDM is needed to go from 4.3.5.13 back to 4.5.3.9 but it is a painless "downgrade".

I don't think any version of ICP 4.x (as of this writing) is as stable as 3.2.340. But, if you have made the jump to 4...then I would be on 4.1.1 by now. 4.0 is not as stable. However, for 4K systems and some IMBs as well as HFR...4.x is pretty essential. 4.1.1 has subtitle fixes in it too.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-21-2013, 11:20 AM:

Thanks, Steve -- I'll come back to this when I get into planning the updates -- end of semester will be here before we know it -- or if I spot a problem before then.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-21-2013, 11:43 AM:

I'm sure they'll have new version to fix the current problems and add some new problems then too!

Remember, software guy's credo: "we're one revision away from perfection" (unfortunately, this is always the case).

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-10-2013, 07:08 PM:

Over a year since I changed my Ethernet cable to STP (was UTP) and finally had a subtitle failure.

The film is called THE MACHINE WHICH MAKES EVERYTHING DISAPPEAR

There is a chance the DCP is at fault because I consistently have issues with this title (during testing and now during screening) and not with others shown the same day (and several times this week).

Maybe it's just our copy. Maybe other people are having issues.

It would help to know about other people's experiences with running this title.