Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Issues, questions, comments, tips, and tricks for Cinedigm LMS (aka TCC)

This is topic Issues, questions, comments, tips, and tricks for Cinedigm LMS (aka TCC) in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-19-2011, 03:57 PM:

As with the NEC projectors, I feel we need a thread to deal with issues related to the Cinedigm LMS.

Here are several questions/issues I have after about a month with the LMS.

1. Is there an easy method for playing dealing with 5.1 & 7.1 formats for the same movie. I know I could create 5.1 and 7.1 titles on my ticketing system, but that creates other issues.

1a. Is there an easy method for re-mapping a title from the 7.1 to 5.1 content and vice versa. I only have one 7.1 auditorium and I would like to use the 7.1 format when available. However, a movie may only play in that auditorium for 1-2 weeks and then move to a 5.1 auditorium. The process for re-mapping from 7.1 to 5.1 is cumbersome as best.

2. How would you create a show play list which does not contain a mapped feature. For example, the night of the Breaking Dawn premiere I ran a 45 minute program of trailers while people were sitting in the auditorium waiting for the movie. I created a title and a trailer pack and added it to the schedule. It sent the trailers to the servers, but did not send the Show Play List (SPL), so I had to manually create it on the servers.

3. Is there a method for manually sending SPLs to the servers? Frequently when I QC a feature, I generally have to schedule a showing in order to get a play list on the intended server. Otherwise I have manually build the play list on the server(s). It appears the LMS doesn't sync SPLs more than 12 hours or so before the first show time.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-19-2011, 04:16 PM:

Justin I'm really interested in this as I am getting NEC and LMS. So I will watch this thread with great anticipation!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-19-2011, 06:10 PM:

Unfortunately any one that posts anything regarding TCC is violating the Cinedigm NDA they signed. So don't expect too much detail to get posted on here. Instead rely on your installer to properly train you. DO NOT LET HIM LEAVE YOUR BUILDING UNTIL YOU ARE SATISFIED THAT YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT!!! Expect getting used to it and it's quirks to take at least 3 weeks to a month.

Mark

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-19-2011, 06:12 PM:

Mark, I wasn't aware of the NDA on the TCC software. Given that, maybe this thread should be locked or deleted.

I will add that the installer spent what I would consider to be a more than adequate amount of time with training. Unfortunately, any training that happens before regular use of the system will be insufficient because a user doesn't yet know what they don't know and because a simulate workflow is not the same as the real world.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-19-2011, 07:37 PM:

I wouldn't lock the thread. There might be a few individuals that can contribute that have not signed an NDA. Any help on TCC anyone can offer wold certainly be advantageous. It can be a very finnikey program because of the Windows 2003 basis.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-19-2011, 10:16 PM:

Does Justin have only one brand of server per each projector, or multiple brands of servers..

As for the different content by the naming conventions, one could easily see that a '51' content has to be built in a '51' SPL and same for the '71' content.

Almost recommend making double SPL's -one for "71", and one for "51" - and have the "51" in the LMS ready to be pushed to the appropriate houses when time arises.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-19-2011, 10:48 PM:

Monte, the issue has to do with how the LMS links the title coming in from the POS system to the content. In order to have a separate 5.1 & 7.1, I would also have to have a separate 5.1 & 7.1 in my ticketing system which means more reports and the potential for more confusion with the studios. Or I could opt to not use the input from the ticketing system, but inputting the schedules manually is a very cumbersome process.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-19-2011, 11:19 PM:

True, can see that now....that's a bit of a issue.

The latter may, for now, would be the tradeoff in keeping things simple for the studios, but a headache on your end.

Question: If the feature switches from a 7.1 house to a 5.1 house, what is the wild card that the LMS and the POS system uses?

Wonder if a generic wild card that is compatible for both types of houses so that feature content can be pushed or pulled without offsetting the POS system?

Or, does the POS system use the actual feature filename (which contains the sound format) as the link between the two?

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-20-2011, 01:18 AM:

The link between the LMS and the POS system is the unique title number in the POS system. The LMS doesn't care what the title is, just the link established when you map a CPL to the title.

There is nothing preventing you from mapping a CPL for Breaking Dawn to a POS title for Happy Feet. Which raises another issue, because it is difficult to re-map the Title to a different CPL once it's been played. So if you don't discover a mistake until during the first playback, it can make it difficult to fix.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-20-2011, 11:58 AM:

Mark,

I'm not sure what in the NDA would preclude a discussion about the TCC operation from a user standpoint. I really don't recall an NDA regarding the TCC itself. It fact, it was made pretty clear...we, the certified techs WERE to provide all such support unless it was a genuine bug.

As for 5.1/7.1 This is the same thing as 2D/3D or any other feature that may be auditorium specific. The LMS (anybody's, from what I can tell) does not know the specific capabilities of the individual auditorium within a complex. The only way it can get this information, at the moment, is if you tell it via Title Mapping.

Now with 2D/3D a solution has been to keep the 3D titles only programed into 3D houses and since there is a 3D presentation obligation...it has not been a big problem. However, when one only has a very small percentage of a special format, 7.1, or XBRIGHT...etc and those are KDMed to specific auditoria then yes you HAVE to set up separate titles in your POS and map them separately.

We have theatres doing just that and the studios seem to have dealt with it just fine. In fact, it will let them know just how many of their shows are taking advantage of 7.1 or XBRIGHT or whatever comes down the pipe.

Note, the current version of the TCC will automatically switch between 7.1 and 5.1 on a clip-by-clip basis. The previous version did not and one had to create a cue to do it. This does not solve the problem of 7.1 content going into a 5.1 only capable theatre.

Now what would solve sound related format issues is if the player could down mix a more sophisticated sound format into a 5.1 output. While it could also be done at the sound processor level, this is more unreasonable since it would require a processor to know about a format that did not exist when the processor was purchased and then have suitable inputs to mix it down...etc. Whereas in the player, via meta data, a player could be told how to mixdown the content to 5.1. Or, it should be required that the 5.1 version ALWAYS accompany the movie (kinda like how BluRay always has the AC3 version available)...and via the player's software, allow it to use 7.1 (or any other new format) or force the 5.1 mix.

Having to have multiple versions of the same title should be a thing of the past in this day and age.

-Steve

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 11-21-2011, 02:32 PM:

quote: Justin Hamaker
There is nothing preventing you from mapping a CPL for Breaking Dawn to a POS title for Happy Feet. Which raises another issue, because it is difficult to re-map the Title to a different CPL once it's been played. So if you don't discover a mistake until during the first playback, it can make it difficult to fix.

There is an easy way, I don't recall the exact steps but it involves deleting the unique POS number from the wrong title mapping (leave the title mapping in place, only delete the number) and manually entering it into the correct title, then do a new schedule import (or in our case with Vista we push the schedule). I've done this a few times after opening a new building with staff that makes mapping mistakes so I know it works, the only question is will it work with your POS since Vista always does a full schedule refresh the LMS rewrites the entire schedule and "fixes" the scheduled titles per the adjustment.

If I am not mistakent the NDA I signed as an exhibitor pertains to details of our deal and not end user operation of the LMS so I am comfortable posting this.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-22-2011, 02:36 PM:

When we have LMS it will not pull shows time and auditorium assignments for the POS system. The reason is that our weekday set up is no different than our weekend on them. We have two less shows on weekdays during the winter and one during summer.

Evidently LMS can be programed with out the POS. Well so I am told!

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-22-2011, 02:51 PM:

Ron, the LMS doesn't actually pull show times from your POS system. Your POS system needs to export a file in a format recognized by the LMS. I assure you, that you want to set this up if at all possible. The manual times input for the LMS is clunky and will take a significant amount of time to enter a full week's schedule.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-22-2011, 06:16 PM:

There is at least one POS where the LMS can "pull" the schedule.

Now as to not integrating with your POS...why? It doesn't care how identical your schedules are...it can get updates as you change your schedule and if you don't change then it doesn't need to update. Once set up, it can be a real time saver!

-Steve

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-22-2011, 06:21 PM:

Justin,

Well running moves at 2:00 pm because you can't control them in the POS makes not sense at all to me. It might to you but not me.

Our system would not allow for pre-sales if we would have to set up new showtimes every single day for the POS export to work. I don't want to do that do you?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-22-2011, 06:45 PM:

I'm no POS expert by ANY stretch. However, the ones I've had to integrate tend to spit out the entire week at once and every time you make any change to it...the LMS is similarly updated. It won't put a 2:00pm show in there unless you specified that show on that day. It does not merely repeat the shows each day...it takes what is in the POS and puts them on the schedule.

-Steve

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-22-2011, 06:48 PM:

What I am trying to say is that our point of sale repeats the same schedule for every day of the week. You have to go in on a daily basis to make a change of any kind on this system. You also have to watch out for a few other glitches in it!

Unfortunately that is not true with the system we use. If you put up shows and times it is a blanket when open for a specific day you have to open all that is available in the set up or delete them from the set up every time. You can edit them on a day by day basis as you open the day.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-22-2011, 08:50 PM:

Ron, can I ask what POS system you're using? The way you're describing the scheduling process seems archaic.

Another alternative, which would still be more desirable than manually entering your schedule in the LMS, would be to use a text editor to edit the XML file as needed. Then manually import the edited schedule.

Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 11-23-2011, 09:17 AM:

You can ask but as the software author and I go back 13 years or so I think I will just say no to a public post. If you email me I will give you the name of the software. I just don't want my friend to think I was trying to stab him

I have figured how to set it up so it can do the programing to LMS don't know if the owners will spring for the utility from him. It is a lot work on ticket set up but I do all of that so it doesn't bother me.

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-08-2014, 04:06 AM:

It has been 807 days since the last post.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-08-2014, 04:06 AM:

Anyone have an answer to Justin's third question?

quote: Justin Hamaker
3. Is there a method for manually sending SPLs to the servers? Frequently when I QC a feature, I generally have to schedule a showing in order to get a play list on the intended server. Otherwise I have manually build the play list on the server(s). It appears the LMS doesn't sync SPLs more than 12 hours or so before the first show time.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-08-2014, 04:42 AM:

Stu: If you have access to higher level functions, you can change the setting for the number of minutes before the scheduled time the SPLs should be on the player.

Go to Applications>System Administration>System Options and find times_trans_start_spl and enter a value in minutes. I have mine set for 7200 minutes (5 days).

For what it's worth, this hasn't really been an issue for quite a while. The main thing is you have to remember TCC is not going to transfer SPLs until the KDMs are ingested.

One thing I would suggest is to make sure you have completed and attached your early & late pre-show, and trailers before ingesting the KDMs. This way new SPLs aren't being sent out every time you complete a task.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-09-2014, 12:25 AM:

Thanks Justin. I had a vague recollection there was a parameter for setting that but was wondering if there was a stand alone command to do it. It doesn't look like it and I doubt I still have the authority to change that parameter.

In any case, it's become academic as what I wanted to do was send an SPL early so I could post-edit it on the Doremi to add some house light cues. But I've discovered this doesn't work. TCC recognises that the edited SPL is not it's own and so sends it again resulting in conflicting sessions. The result being that neither SPL runs at the scheduled time.

The reason I wanted to add some house light cues is because we are running a 6hr ballet which has the intermissions imbedded into the one CPL. So I want to bring the house lights up (and down) a couple of times in the middle of the presentation. I suppose I'll need to nut out a show template to do this. Has anyone done anything like this before?

EDIT: Well turned out to be easy. I'll just need to manually adjust the cues for each feature but I guess there's no way around that.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 02-09-2014, 05:32 AM:

I haven't used a Doremi server so I don't know if this will work. On my GDC server I would just make a copy of the TCC playlist, and add the cues to the copy. Then delete the original show from the TCC schedule and manually schedule the copied SPL on the Doremi. This is how I've dealt with some of the double and triple features.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2014, 01:55 PM:

It really depends on the event as to what the best approach is. One can manually edit a show in the TCC using Schedule Viewer.

If this is going to happen more than once or twice then I would go through with creating a template that has pauses/intermissions built into it and get the cues right.

When some of these triple feature marathons came out I did do special templates only to run into the DCI 6-hour clause so I skipped that in the future and had our customers just load each feature in their POS individually (or if they were pre-combined as a double feature...use that). Thus they could have predictable intermissions and not have to do anything special. I think there was one site that we had to manually set the shows in the TCC due to how they wanted to sell the tickets...but it is rare enough of an occurrence as to not worry about or create a template.

There is flexibility there it is just a matter of using what makes sense at the time.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-09-2014, 03:52 PM:

I don't think it's possible to add cues from schedule viewer, though, is it Steve? It's just content, isn't it?

What's the rationale behind the DCI 6 hour limitation? Is that merely the studios arbitrarily not giving up more control than they have to? Because no show would ever, ever run more than 6 hrs, right?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-09-2014, 10:01 PM:

Stu, you may be correct on adding/deleting cues via schedule viewer...that does require a template...my mistake.

The 6-hour thing has to do with the TLS session limit.

I guess they figured the longest movie would never hit 6 hours without an intermission so they were safe...then the triple feature thing hit and proved them wrong.

Posted by Stu Jamieson (Member # 4626) on 02-09-2014, 11:16 PM:

Lack of vision for the sake of increased control.
Remember when somebody said that nobody would ever need more than 640K of RAM?