Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The negatives to booth less digital theater

This is topic The negatives to booth less digital theater in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000980

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 12-15-2011, 10:47 AM:

Went to the new B&B theater in Ozark Mo a couple of nights ago. This is like a couple of the other new ones they have recently built is booth less. I understand the possible savings with new construction, but what are the disadvantages of this design. The racks of the booth equipment are now in a room off of the main hallway. (amps too).

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-15-2011, 10:53 AM:

It's been mentioned before, but with boothless you have one quite small room for each projector, which means that any AC problems will be exacerbated big-time. Those rooms will get roasting really quickly.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 12-15-2011, 10:54 AM:

Why is the location of the racks a disadvantage? I have been on cruise ships where the video projector is suspended in the auditorium and the electronics located elsewhere. The picture and sound were fine.

Sunset Theater - Norwegian Jade - November 2011

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-15-2011, 11:33 AM:

I have never seen one of these theatres, but I can imagine that any sort of event that requires that additional projection and/or sound equipment be brought in would be made much more difficult with this sort of arrangement. As one who has done work for a number of film festivals, most or all of which now involve various video formats, I can say that this can be a problem even in a conventional booth and would be made worse in a booth-less arrangement.

Similarly, it would be very difficult or impossible to install 35mm equipment in this sort of venue.

It is possible that neither of these would be an issue for a mainstream multiplex that does not do much in the way of rentals or special events, but it does reduce the possibilities for alternative uses for the space.

[ 12-15-2011, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Scott Norwood ]

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 12-15-2011, 11:41 AM:

quote: Chris Slycord
It's been mentioned before, but with boothless you have one quite small room for each projector, which means that any AC problems will be exacerbated big-time. Those rooms will get roasting really quickly.

Since these have been around for a couple of years, might this problem have been fixed? I believe at this location I was at, each small proection room is open above across the entire theater. So there is quite a bit of space for hot air to rise?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-15-2011, 12:06 PM:

I can put up with a video projector hanging from the ceiling in a sports bar. But I won't stomach one hanging from the ceiling in a commercial movie theater, especially one with stadium seating. The projector would be far too much of a visual distraction.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-15-2011, 12:28 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The projector would be far too much of a visual distraction.

They hang the units up on the back wall above the back row of seats suspended on cables allowing the unit to be raised and lowered for maintenance.

Heard that at Showeast, that there were some displays of construction pics of auditoriums without any booth construction.

One of the ideas behind this is so the building can be used for something else if the cinema concept in the building dies off and no wasted space is the results.

Put the amp racks behind the screen. Then the speaker runs be a lot shorter for better sound and the signal wires in one conduit above the tiles from processor to rack.

Goodbye booth.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 12:43 PM:

Well we sure know the Grand Poo-Bah's opinion on this:

http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000667

- Carsten

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 12-15-2011, 01:12 PM:

Last summer I drove out to Rio Vista (Albuquerque area) to do a Technicolor ScreenVision service call at a then brand-new multiplex build. The 'plex was either a 14- or 16-screen build with all of the equipment racks located in a glass room along the main corridor across from the snack bar. In each stadium auditorium the Barco projectors were housed within black box enclosures that were mounted to the ceiling above the last couple rows of seats. These enclosures did have air conditioning and return air vents.

From a service tech's view, this set-up is a royal pain in the ass. To gain access to the projectors there, one must use a ladder about 12' tall. The operator side of the black box does slide towards the screen (or better yet, remove and lower it to the floor) to provide access on that side of the machine, but it's tight in there. I imagine lamp and air filter changes will be fun, let alone any future lens work to be done.

That and having to climb up/down and walk back/forth 300' to the rack to roll test content and verify it's showing properly. And having to keep the house closed during troubleshooting, unless the theater is OK with having audience in there while the tech is running back and forth and up and down the ladder in the seating area. To me at least, servicing such a place is needlessly tedious.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 02:20 PM:

The only real way to this properly is to always have a spare projector sitting around, swapping out the malfunctioning machine and service it elsewhere ;-)

Maybe one should refuse service to these installations. Although there will always be some pure guy who is not in the position to refuse.

- Carsten

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 12-15-2011, 04:04 PM:

Is it hardly surprising that the servicing aspect of these units are far from the thoughts of building designers?

Digital is perfect y'know.

My guess is that this style of design will fade rather quickly when the servicing cost escalations appear on the invoices the theatre suits receive.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 04:12 PM:

Well basically I get the idea of boothless for streamlined new plexes, with LMS/TMS, IMBs, etc. But why fly them? They need to be adjusted properly, so bringing them down will always need a new format adjustment. What about simply having a steel platform on which the technician is at least allowed to walk around the unit and have a safe rest from time to time. Could hardly be more expensive than the hanging. Well sure enough they will learn their lesson. But technicians need to protest against that kind of work. Is anyone at all allowed to carry out this kind of work under these conditions?

- Carsten

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-15-2011, 04:12 PM:

At least with those BARCO installs, the bulb changes wouldn't be that all bad due to the usage of the lamp modules...and that location would prob have a couple of spare modules on the shelf with new bulbs in them ready to go when the time comes.

Thus, when it's time for a change, pop off the side cover with the two captive screws, undo the three captive screws on the module itself and out comes the module. Put in the replacement module tighten down the three captive screws, close it up and you're done with that section..and down the ladder you go.

I can see 15min at the most doing this swapout.

Now, you can head to a more comfortable place where the projector control touch panels are at and to the bulb alignments for either standard or CLO mode.. and even check display focus, run test patterns, et.al., during this time.

They could have an access panel on the back wall in the auditorium below the digital unit where the control panel is located at to do these tests by the technician, or qualified employee that is in charge of this procedure.

BARCO filters: stainless steel, extra fine mesh screens that you can take out, take them to the kitchen and wash them, let dry and pop them back in. The two covers are a sinch to remove and the filter units are right there..

Only thing that is a pain is when you have to do an igniter changeout (BARCO calls the igniter a "Start Pulse Generator"). The cover plate for the unit is a trick in itself to take off to remove the "SPG", and you have to remove the module first since the "SPG" also contains the two DC probes for the bulb power connections on the module.

They were smart using the BARCOS in this location setup..definitely had a technicial department in the say with this new design-not a straight boardroom decision.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-15-2011, 05:52 PM:

I can't imagine a theatre without a booth. Where would I keep the tools, Christmas decorations, old cash registers, etc?

Seriously --- there's just something about the beam of light coming from that little window high in the back of the auditorium that adds to the magic and mystery of the movies. If the machine is hanging in the auditorium it gives the whole enterprise an A/V room/sports bar feel, like Bobby said. Doesn't matter if it's over the seats or behind the seats.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-15-2011, 06:04 PM:

Much as I can gather and from a friend of mine who went to Showeast and met a theatre construction representative, is that with the concept of a no-booth building concept, it reduces interior construction costs and along with allowing the building to be converted to anything else if the cinema business needs to end, or have failed.

..what I heard though, thus someone can clarify this portion of the topic.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 12-15-2011, 06:05 PM:

It's also a target. How many kids will be throwing popcorn at that projector....

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 12-15-2011, 06:13 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
there's just something about the beam of light coming from that little window high in the back of the auditorium that adds to the magic and mystery of the movies

Spot on.

THIS is what we are selling - the magic and mystery of movies.

A popcorn target hanging from the ceiling just doesn't cut it.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2011, 06:57 PM:

Well, with a hanging Barco, there is still magic light coming through a little windows in the back of the auditory...

And, I mean, how far can you throw your popcorn? Fan noise would be more of a concern for me.

- Carsten

Posted by Robert Grandrath (Member # 6483) on 12-15-2011, 10:45 PM:

I have several small boothless auditoriums that I service. I have a few that are an "attic" type set up and a few that are on lifts, suspended in the auditorium.

The "attic" type set ups are fairly easy to service, its a pain to get up there but once the tools and I are up the ladder its really no big deal to do most things. As a bonus most tasks are accomplished siting as opposed to standing next to the unit.

The lift projectors can be a pain, not because its hard to move the projector up and down but because no work can be done while the back few rows (and preferably the entire auditorium) are occupied. Also the issue of air flow is crucial if you plan to box a projector in. Besides the bulb extraction each of my systems that are suspended in a box have a fresh air supply and return to eliminate any whistling. Initially the inlet for the box air was fed from the auditorium HVAC unit. It ran fine this way until winter hit and the heaters came on... Needless to say that has been changed. The boxes have curtains and trim to match the auditorium decor and most people hardly notice them to my knowledge. It is nessecary to make a lens adjustment after using the lift some of the time but its not a huge deal because in most cases I would be touching up the image on screen anyway during the service visit. If you plan to use lifts invest in a few wireless access points for painless adjustment after lift use.

We chose to put our racks in a single "server room" and run video and audio wire to each auditorium. I would reccomend using a panel in the auditorium for surrounds if you plan to do long runs like this. Also cooling of the countless electronic devices in our server room is a concern. I would reccomend a dedicated AC for this type of application. As for alt content i would imagine video over network gear would be sufficient.

The downsides are definatly there for non-booth systems. I can imagine that a bare projector would be a target for youngsters looking for trouble though my boxes have yet to be targeted. Also with out the ability to push physical buttons in a pinch can be a disadvantage for some of the theatre staff. Many times I have had to remote in to strike a lamp because the staff are unable to navigate the software to do so. The "hey the light on the back is red" phone calls do not happen for these auditoriums so thats another layer of protection gone though with an NOC this won't be an issue (hopefully). Lastly i would say that the booth was not only a place to run movies from but really a nerve center of the building. Checking auditoriums from the booth is pretty handy. You can see whats going on in your theatres and in most cases, make a round trip much faster than if you walked the theatre from downstairs. To many times have I seen a total of 2 tickets sold for a remote auditorium and walked in on something more than PG-13 or had to clean up after a popcorn fight that ran unchecked for a long time...

Lastly I would say that systems like this do lose out on some of the "magic". The booth has always been the place where the most respected staff work. New employees are always amazed by the booth. There will be no respite for those that are boothless, imagine trying to build a playlist with the typical managers office traffic, annoying. The booth is not only the nerve center of the theatre but the heart aswell. Until one of the major projector makers comes up with a system that can smile and wave at curious theatre goers through that tiny window on the box I will be on the fence about going boothless.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 12-15-2011, 11:15 PM:

At this location, the projectors were not hanging from the ceiling. Instead they had their own mini-booths. To see a picture of one roughed in framing wise go to Facebook, search Sonic Equipment, it shows the small space being built in pictures from 9/20 (the first picture). Also in the "new theater builds..." album. access is gained from inside the auditorium. Maybe someone else could add the photo as I am not sure how to add it.

2 auditoriums at the end of the hallway shared a space and the mini-booth went into one of the auditoriums as there was not enough room for them both to be going into the hallway.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-16-2011, 04:21 PM:

So in the boothless theatre...how does one boresight/Scheimphflug the image for uniform focus from the projection position? Even converging the projector has to be a pain.

-Steve

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-16-2011, 05:07 PM:

I hated screen rooms with projector hanging from ceeling, okay for some presentation or so.....but barco 19 or 23 makes noise when you power on lamp because of fan's......and that can be anoing!

Posted by Robert Grandrath (Member # 6483) on 12-17-2011, 03:39 PM:

An even focus and convergance can be roughed out prior to putting the projector in its final position. This applies to any digital projector, not just booth less projectors. Often times the weekend before a digital conversion, with the film still running a few feet away, I have powered up my digital equipment ahead of removing the film equipment and shot an image at the wall to make these adjustments. Of course the fine adjustments will still need to be made once the projector is in its place but doing the rough work ahead of time means less time on a scaffold or ladder.