Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Slow transition to digital

This is topic Slow transition to digital in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001006

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-25-2012, 02:44 PM:

From reading about your theatre operations, most of you seem to have just about converted over to digital . As far as I can tell,the Regal Pearl Highland Theatres in Pearl City near where I live also have switched over completely to digital with Sony 4K systems. I am sure their Dole Cannery and Windward Mall in Honolulu and Kaneohe has too as well as as their other theatres in Hawaii. For some reason, Regal International seem to be taking their time converting their Consolidated Theatres here in Hawaii to digital. Of all of their eighteen auditoriums, at their flagship theatre, the Ward Centre, only four of their houses has digital, Most of their other theatres on Oahu each has only one except the Mililani which has two . The Koko Marina 8 and the Koolau 10 has none. They both have a 3-D auditorium but uses the Technicolor film system.

I wonder if Reading is also holding back with digital projection at their other theatre operations in the other parts of the U.S. and the world? It is mind boggling when I think about the how much Reading will have to spend converting over all of their film houses to digital at the same time when they are forced to do so when film is replaced with digital.

Are there any other major chains dragging their feet converting to digital that you know of?

-Claude

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-25-2012, 02:59 PM:

Yes some are certainly waiting.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-25-2012, 03:31 PM:

Probably economics, priority and lastly, VPF deals to secure - very costly to do a sudden full conversion, esp with Real D to add in which includes installations of silver screens, and these alone are not cheap in themselves.

Carmike took the plunge early to do a full conversion since they got ahead before the economic dive in 2008.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 01-25-2012, 04:17 PM:

...leaving Carmike with a bunch of Series 1 projectors which are considered by some almost obsolete in the new electronic world of cinema. In the 35mm days, that would have not been the case.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-25-2012, 04:40 PM:

Dunno. The fact that some converted earlier doesn't mean the others are 'slow'. We're only half way through the transition. I would consider 2013/2014 conversions als 'slow'. After introduction of series II projectors, we are currently in a technical transition phase again - IMB, 4k, upcoming laser light sources, >5.1 sound installations. I would think it is not a bad idea to consider your options carefully before you buy.

- Carsten

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 01-25-2012, 04:57 PM:

Your mention of laser light sources interests me. Does that mean that at some point we'll be changing out the xenon bulbs that we have now and replacing them with some kind of a "laser pack"?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-25-2012, 05:15 PM:

Laser Projection would be a whole different animal - a completely new projection design using lasers as the direct source of light ..as mentioned in this previous post.

Then, the concept of projectorless OLED displays, et.al. - anything to eliminate the projector all together.

With this digital stuff, it looks like a whole new "can of stinky worms" has been opened up where the dollar bill will always be chased to keep up with the advancing technology where one technology will always outdo the other.

(remember I8088, 286,386,486,et.al.? looks like digital is heading in the same direction as with the computers: never ending advancements and just more to spend monies on..)

This will definitely do some serious separation or forced conversions for the cinema owners-a choice will have to be made: to buy, or to head to lease agreements.

..to where it looks like they should have left film alone...and I'm building four film prints today... [Smile]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 01-25-2012, 05:31 PM:

If enough theaters stay with film, even a good bit of just one major chain, the studios will HAVE to continue producing film prints. Remember red light readers? Remember when the "new" Star Wars fick was only goin to go to digital screens?

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 01-25-2012, 05:59 PM:

I made a error when I started this thread. The chain that owns Consolidated Theatres in Hawaii is Reading International and not Regal International. I read my thread again and discovered the error.

-Claude

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-25-2012, 06:11 PM:

I think that before we see widespread deployment of laser projection we will see a transition to high-output LED modules as the next light source. Prototypes of these are already in development. These LED modules will replace the present xenon lamps. I'm pretty sure we'll see field deployment of this in just the next couple of years.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-25-2012, 06:38 PM:

One amazing thing about the Runco LED home theater projectors is the speed of the LED! Single chip DLP without need of a color wheel!
The latest model looked better than any DLP I have seen in a commercial theater!
On a 100 inch screen that is. With top of the line stuff behind it.
One problem right now is they cannot go much bigger because the LED lights are not strong enough.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-25-2012, 11:00 PM:

I can almost see a good number of years before these LED modules needs replacing...but as with LED's, light output will have to be closely monitored since with LED's fade with age.

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 01-26-2012, 12:38 AM:

Here in Bakersfield, the Regal Edwards Marketplace 14 finished going all digital about two weeks ago. SO they have 1 theatre with an NEC 2K (Real-D XL), 5 screens with Sony 4K (set to 2-lens 2-K for BOTH 2-D and 3-D), and the 8 newest screens are all Sony 4K 2-D.

The late-run Starplex 6 ($1.00 before 6p, $1.50 after) is also 100 percent digital, with 4 screens featuring Real-D XL.

feet dragging is going on with the other theatres. Maya Cinemas 16 (a tiny chain with only one other theatre in Salinas) has digital in only 3 theatres, the same number when they first opened (all with Dolby 3-D, 1 with two rows of D-BOX Motion code seats).

The Reading 16 Cinemas has only two digital screens (both Dolby 3-D). Strangely, these auditoriums use common height masking when in 3-D mode, and common width when in 2-D mode!)

A discount theatre in a banrupt mall is a former UA 10 (now Regency). It is all 35mm with one Technicolor 3-D screen.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-26-2012, 05:29 AM:

As discussed before, there are very different ways to implement laser technology for cinema projection. Barco, e.g. recently announced their solution as a drop-in replacment light source for their existing DLP projectors. Completely redesigned projectors may utilize laser light sources more specifically, like e.g. the Kodak/IMAX approach.

There are a couple of high-power RGB solid-state laser sources available, e.g. Sony makes stackable RGB packs. So wether LED or Laser might not make such a big difference. For power stacking, Laser is easier to implement.

Whatever - when Series II came out, I thought that would set the gold standard for at least 5 years or so, including the later 4k variants. However, it is moving fast to IMB, HFR, laser, and possibly other 3D solutions as well. Not a bad idea to wait a little longer with your investment, as long as you're still supplied with 35mm or you don't miss your VPF deal.

- Carsten

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 01-26-2012, 09:52 AM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
Are there any other major chains dragging their feet converting to digital that you know of?

None in the Midwest.

Claude I would factor in geography why Hawaii might be slower in the conversion. Much more costly to get equipment there.

In my market, we are the only first run not converted. 38 screens out of 42 converted. 3 different companies operating 4 locations. The largest of the 3 is Hollywood, then Goodrich, then B&B.

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 01-26-2012, 09:58 AM:

From what I've seen, all 1st run "major" chain theaters are 100% converted and the discount sites have a couple digital screens, but still run a majority of houses in 35mm

Posted by Tim Asten (Member # 4051) on 01-26-2012, 06:33 PM:

Perhaps now all the dollar houses are getting new prints instead of scratched hand-me-downs [Smile]

Posted by Tom Mundell (Member # 4555) on 01-27-2012, 09:32 AM:

quote: Jonathan Althaus
From what I've seen, all 1st run "major" chain theaters are 100% converted

That definitely varies by area, around here Regal and AMC still have more film than digital, other areas I've been to are mostly/all digital.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 01-27-2012, 04:22 PM:

I hear ya Tom, it's really annoying that AMC is being really slow in converting the two large screens at Mazza (Friendship Heights - DC) - management said screen 1 is too large for Sony 4K, and getting a Christie unit is on order - and... ?? well hurry up then.

Landmark is the other chain that's been resistant to the digital conversion, but I've heard that the DC area, they will start converting late this spring (at the earliest)

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 01-27-2012, 04:46 PM:

I take it their film presentation is horrible in DC?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-27-2012, 05:22 PM:

quote: Jonathan Goeldner
management said screen 1 is too large for Sony 4K, and getting a Christie unit is on order - and... ?? well hurry up then.

Give the manufacturers a million and they will speed things up for you...they're not like a McD's hamburger factory, or a FORD auto factory - takes time to build/test/certify these units before rollout.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-19-2012, 11:29 PM:

Of all the five years that the National Geographic here in DC has hosted the annual 'Global Glimpses' series which showcases all five foreign film Oscar nominated films - this was the first year that of the four films I saw (I didn't see last Friday's night screening of 'A Separation') all were digitally shown through the Nat Geo's Sony 4K projector - and they all looked top notch - even 'In Darkness' which as it title implies a lot of scenes were shot in very dark tunnels, the Red Camera photography of the above outdoor scenes looked ultra sharp and DI'd to almost monochromatic color schemes. This was D-Cinema at it's best and flawless presentations [thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-20-2012, 06:28 AM:

It was E-Cinema. the Nat Geo has an "AV" version of the Sony 4K and their content delivery methods, unless something has changed, does not include DCinema...they do have an HDCAM-SR deck though.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-20-2012, 12:08 PM:

^ well it could have fooled me, but the presentation was stunning to say the least. The pre-Nat Geo slides/video was projected through another projector in the booth below the main booth - the features though were projected from the main booth if that was 'A/V Sony', that was damn impressive - it looked the same as the features I've seen on AMC Mazza's Sony projectors.

Posted by Steve Wilson (Member # 2411) on 02-20-2012, 10:00 PM:

Personally, I think the massive roll out is nearly over. They have already equiped the all the big boys and the left over little boys have no money or access to capital and if they did, they still cannot afford the much added overhead of digital. We will see what happeneds in the next 12 months.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-20-2012, 11:21 PM:

^ yeah I was surprised to hear that Regal Gallery Place's 14 screens (here in DC) were converted to all digital as of February 7th - wonder what that will mean for DC FilmFest since it's one of the venues and 35mm is no longer an option there.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 02-21-2012, 02:46 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Laser Projection would be a whole different animal - a completely new projection design using lasers as the direct source of light ..as mentioned in this previous post.

Then, the concept of projectorless OLED displays, et.al. - anything to eliminate the projector all together.

With this digital stuff, it looks like a whole new "can of stinky worms" has been opened up where the dollar bill will always be chased to keep up with the advancing technology where one technology will always outdo the other.

(remember I8088, 286,386,486,et.al.? looks like digital is heading in the same direction as with the computers: never ending advancements and just more to spend monies on..)

This will definitely do some serious separation or forced conversions for the cinema owners-a choice will have to be made: to buy, or to head to lease agreements.

..to where it looks like they should have left film alone...and I'm building four film prints today...

Lemme get this straight. I really want to understand. Are you really saying that even before the massive rollout is complete, that it's already becoming obsolete? Who's going to be able to afford yanking out all the existing digital stuff that they just bought, and buy and install the new? Wouldn't that be no one? Really?

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 02-21-2012, 03:43 PM:

quote: Jim Henk
Lemme get this straight. I really want to understand. Are you really saying that even before the massive rollout is complete, that it's already becoming obsolete?

Perhaps not "obselete", but certainly "last years model". There will come a time when something other than the current crop of DCI compliant projectors becomes more cost effective when looked at from a TCO perspective by the big chains, and when that happens the current technology will dissapear from the marketplace in less than six months.

Given that Series Two projectors are just starting to appear, you have to think there wont be a lot of them around if laser tech really is nibbling at the heels.

quote: Jim Henk
Who's going to be able to afford yanking out all the existing digital stuff that they just bought, and buy and install the new? Wouldn't that be no one? Really?

If ripping out the existing stuff and replaces it makes sense in dollars and cents, then ripped out and replaced it will be. Money never was a problem for the big chains.

But its looks more likely that the two technologies will co-exist for a while, as it doesn't look like there would be massive financial advantages to replacing existing kit.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-21-2012, 03:57 PM:

quote: David Buckley
Given that Series Two projectors are just starting to appear

Just starting? We've had one since June of 2010.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 02-21-2012, 04:41 PM:

quote: David Buckley
Money never was a problem for the big chains.

That's just so odd. Wasn't that their rallying cry? They couldn't go digital without VLMs, which paid for most of the cost, because they simply didn't have it.

???

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 02-21-2012, 07:06 PM:

I think the big buzzword in another few years is going to be:

(drum roll)

Retrofits.

After all, why shouldn't it be possible to use the same lens, power supply, cabinet, server, and who-knows-what-else and turn it into a wonderful new laser projector? If nobody is working on this I would be astounded.

Since there won't be VPFs to help the big chains (that didn't need any help in the first place, but I digress) the next time, they'll need SOME way to upgrade on the cheap. The Carmikes of the world certainly aren't going to actually BUY new $60,000 machines in a few years.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 02-21-2012, 09:21 PM:

$60,000? I just read that Runco has a (admittedly state-of-the-art) home projector for $200,000. Are theatre machines really as cheap as 60K?

Runco link

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 02-21-2012, 10:00 PM:

Runco has long been at the forefront of way overpriced home theater projectors. I remember one costing $150k (I think) at a local AV store about 10 years ago.

Posted by Jim Henk (Member # 3628) on 02-21-2012, 10:33 PM:

Oops - hit refresh and it re-posted. Sorry.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-21-2012, 11:12 PM:

Word on the street is that $60k should be in the general ballpark for a 2D setup with the small Christie plus a server plus installation with an existing sound system in an existing booth. Presumably the price goes up if you want automation. For home use, you wouldn't need the server, so the price drops by about $10k. Add $5k or so if you want a scaler, but that is actually unnecessary if you just want to use Blu-Ray via HDMI/DVI.

I have no idea who buys $200k video projectors for home use, but--even if you have the money--it doesn't sound like a very good deal for something that will be obsolete the day after it is purchased.

(Don't quote me on prices (I don't sell or buy this stuff), but they should be in the general range.)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2012, 05:46 PM:

One thing that I've noticed is that the print numbers are in the lower digits for new film releases - definitely on the decline of new prints being struck.

-Monte

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 02-22-2012, 07:15 PM:

Jeremy Kipnis's $6 MIL home ET system Jeremy wouldn't mind Runcos for his display units if it wasn't for the Sonys.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-17-2013, 10:01 PM:

so referring to a prior comment I made a year ago about the National Geographic digital projection system, this year's Global Glimpses foreign film showcase - the system I found out last Friday night is a Christie 4K unit. The 2K DCP image of 'Kon-Tiki' was simply outstanding. The system is also able to present 3D as they are currently showing 'Sea Monsters 3D'

as to new news of theaters transitioning to digital, the National Gallery of Art on the National Mall has been upgraded to playback DCPs - out of all the forms of film delivery/presentation, the ONLY form that is not able to be played back at the museum is 70mm

Both E Street Landmark and the Angelika Mosaic - are technically all digital - but also have one screen set up to playback 35mm when ever the opportunity presents itself.

The non-profit Avalon Theater is the one stalwart in delaying the change over as long as possible. I don't expect to see 'digital' til the Fall (at the earliest).