quote: Dave Macaulay

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They tell you the way things should work, and they aren't open to contrary opinions from us mere mortals.

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Why a few techs knows how to beat "their system" with little trick mods of their own and don't tell anyone about it...

Only thing I have to remember is to always refresh the content listing in the EDIT window after ingesting with Doremi's, since that reminds me of an old WIN3.1 operation.

Dolby, GDC and even SONY auto-refreshes content listings after the ingests are done.

Doesn't Dolby also use Linux?

I think the Qube servers are the Windows based units (but could be wrong, for I knew of one server that was different..).

-Monte
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 02-29-2012, 02:19 AM:
 
Steve, On a Doremi I often setup macros with multiple commands, say sending the projector to flat will also set the masking to flat. Granted you get the automation to do this via GPIO to the projector, or possibly having it send via TCP/IP or RS232 to the projector, but that's a lot more hassle. A lot of places like having a macro that does say, lamp on + dowser open + tabs open + lights down + sound over, with the appropriate delays. Again, granted you can do things like in something like the eCNA, but automations like that are expensive, here at any rate, and exhibitors just don't have £k sums for an automation interface.

One wee thing about the way Doremi handles trigger inputs, used for Fire Alarm. Unless I've misunderstood it from day 1, it requires you to insert a trigger cue in each and every playlist. This means it requires human intervention to work correctly (stop or pause playback) and won't be compliant with regs in a lot of places.

I designed our own automation interface from the ground up, 16 relay outputs, 4 inputs (stop, pause, play & fire). Addressable by RS232 or Ethernet. Comes in at a 10th the price of the NA10.
On Fire Alarm activation it raises lights, mutes sound, shuts down the lamp and stops playback. One could argue that stopping playback in not necessary as we've cut picture and sound, but rules are rules in some places.

My point about DSS200 and non-Dolby Ethernet devices really relates to things like the JSD80, it would make life a bit simpler if I could control them direct, like you can with a CP650/750. Also I've got a few places with TCP/IP addressable house lights which have no facility for contact-closure control. Again being able to address them directly, like you can from a Doremi, would be nice.

Totally agree with you about the Series 1 defaulting thing, this is 2012 FFS! At least you don't have to manually set the CineLink type on recent software.

Dominic, the NA10 is horrendously expensive and over specified for 99% of installs. I'm sure I heard Dolby were dropping it in any case.

Dave/Monte, Dolby servers are Linux boxes.

quote: Dave Macaulay

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consider themselves cinema gods. They tell you the way things should work, and they aren't open to contrary opinions from us mere mortals.

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Isn't that the group credentials for Film-Techer?
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-29-2012, 05:27 AM:
 
Fire trigger - With Doremi, you export a playlist to /doremi/etc and call it "default_cues.xml" (using the "export" button in the save playlist dialog). Anything in that playlist is then appended to the start of aevery playlist you run. The fire trigger certainly should be in it but you can also add exhaust fan start or anything you want to always happen on every show.
 

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Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 02-29-2012, 06:20 AM:
 

quote: Marnix Koster

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Some theaters nearby say we should choose the DCP2k4 because it will be able to play Highframe rate movies.

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quote:

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February 16th, 2012
Dutch production company 'De Productie' recently sent an email to Dutch arthouses concerning the upcoming release of the film Above my Head by Eugenie Jansen. In the mail the producers recommend arthouses Doremi servers, as these will be certain to be able to play the film. Above my Head was shot in 3D 50 FPS, a format not yet supported by digital cinema standards.

Above my Head (Dutch title: Ondersteboven) which will be released later this year is the story of a young girl who is taken from Australia to Flanders by her father after the death of her Aboriginal mother. Director Eugenie Jansen wanted to shoot the film in 3D while moving the camera in circles, in order to make it an intense viewing experience. As the regular 24 frames per second (FPS) was bound to create artefacts, stereographer Kommer Kleijn advised Jansen to investigate to shoot the film on a high frame rate.

After extensive tests they decided to opt for 50 FPS, as it made the film sharper and was easier on the eye. However, although higher frame rates are on the agenda since several filmmakers have high speed films in production, high frame rates in 3D is still a little unchartered territory.

In the mail to arthouses, intended as an inventory, production house De Productie asks for input from the arthouses, for instance about which digital cinema equipment they have. The mail states that in order to be able to screen the film arthouses most certainly need a series 2 projector. The producers also state that if the arthouses have a DOREMI server, they will be able to screen the film, most certainly if one has a DOREMI IMB.

The mail doesn´t mention any other server manufacturers, leaving arthouses that made alternative choices in the dark about whether they´ll be able to screen the upcoming film. The filmmakers do however intend to tour a mobile 3D unit in order to facilitate screenings at venues that aren´t able to screen the film with their regular d-cinema equipment.

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Sounds like these guys have only managed to test their bleeding-edge, non-standard content properly on Doremi hardware, probably for budget reasons.

As far as I know, high framerate 3D will always need an integrated media block since the data rates exceed that of dual HD-SDI. No matter which server you have.

Dolby has already demonstrated HFR 3D (48 and 60 fps) with a DSS200 and a prototype Dolby IMB.

Note that none of this stuff has been standardized yet – but it sure looks like both Doremi and Dolby will be able to handle the future standards-compliant HFR 3D content. But you will need an IMB in addition to the server.
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 02-29-2012, 08:04 AM:
 
Dave, that's a good tip. Thanks!

I learn something every day, when I know everything life will become very dull.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 02-29-2012, 02:37 PM:
 
Dave,

HFR limitations are in HD-SDI connections only. HDSDI is roughly 1.5Gbps each. HFR is supposed to be 48fps x 2 eyes = 96fps. If you check this link you can easily calculate the required bandwidth for any formats.
You can still run 48fps 2D on a doremi with no modifications required, but you need to drop the colour depth to 10bits and colour sampling to 4:2:2 (like 3D... yes, after all 3D is 48fps!). If you want go higher - say 3D 48fps (96fps in total) - then you need an external Media Block - IMB - with ANY servers. The difference is that with a DSS200 you can just unplug your LINK cable and connect the ethernet connector to the new IMB; with the Doremi I guess you need to remove the MB and install a PCI-Express card - not sure whather this upgrade is/will be available.

Also, Dolby runs on Linux. It's XDC that runs under Windows XP O_O
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 02-29-2012, 09:29 PM:
 
OK, I understand. The IMB system lets you run 3D with 4-4-4 color as well I think.
The "default cues" thing I discovered by accident. It is covered in the Doremi documentation somewhere but it is not really clear. I was doing a TMS installation on an existing Doremi server, and I could not figure out why the thing kept doing stuff before running what I wanted. Playing a sound test clip only, I would see "cuing spl black" and a few seconds wait with automation cues firing before my sound test played. I called Doremi wondering what was possessing the server: after a while the helldesk tech mentioned the default_cues.xml file. Recently delivered servers have a default_cues_xml.sample file with a fire trigger cue but I think it assumes GPIO-IN1 is the fire trigger. If you delete the .sample extension it will be active. One thing I don't know is how to import it into cinelister for editing. I can open it in a xml editor but actual editing this way is fraught with danger - the format has to be exactly right for cues to work and the generic editor is very user-unfriendly. I've come to believe that these .xml files should only be created or edited using the specific software using them.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2012, 06:20 AM:
 
Pete, just how expensive do you think eCNA automations are? Under $1K us (in fact more than a hundred less). Compared to film automations...super-cheap.

Don't get me wrong, I think macro in Dolby's GUI would be a nice benefit but I'm going to be putting an automation in there anyway.

In your case of having all of those functions happening...you can do that on the Dolby...stock though with the timing offsets, I can see it growing old with each show...then again, most folks copy one show to the next and just change the particulars.

I agree that I would like to see Dolby's Ethernet configurable to control devices...the JSD80 can be controlled via RS232, if desired though. Via a Lantronix RS232/LAN converter, one could control your dimmer too.

The NA10 is indeed gone. It was certainly overpriced for what it was (an Ethernet controlled relay box). Then again, it was the first of its kind back in the day when DCinema was very new. I think I've pulled out all of the ones I put in...not that they didn't work but what one can do with an eCNA just made it make sense.
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-01-2012, 07:52 AM:
 
Steve, we've bene here before, remember I live and work in rip off Britain!

If I convert you $1k to £ (that's before we talk about import duty, VAT, etc, etc), our in house automation comes in at less than half the cost of the eCNA. Plus it's built here in the UK, so we're doing our bit for the GDP.

Inted Jnior is a useful little box but SO expensive. You need 1 + extension module to get to the same 16 outputs ours has, and your at somewhere around double the cost.

Honestly, we've got exhibitors niggling over wether to buy a rack/pedstal, or to build something in timber themselves. Or as i have seen in one place (not our work I hasten to add), turn an old wardrobe on its side, and plonk the poor Barco on that.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-02-2012, 02:07 AM:
 
BTW - since Doremi software release 2.xx, there is an option for an 'always active' fire trigger, that is, without any show playing or loaded.

Besides that - yes, to play 3d HFR, you need an IMB, no matter what server you have.

The issue is - if you want to buy NOW, Doremi IMB+ShowVault is your only option actually on the market, and it costs you more or less the same as a classic server with built-in IMB.

If you buy a DSS200 now, you can install the Dolby IMB later this year when it is finally available, but you have to spent another 7000-9000US$ for it, which is basically wasted, unless Dolby or your integrator offers you a trade-in deal for the DSS200 media-block.

Dolby lists the Dolby DSS220 + IMB combo on their cinema products catalog since last October, but they have no information regarding final pricing or availability.
The Doremi IMB is in the market for over a year now and well tested.

Only issue is that the Doremi PCIe connection, yet a standard in itself, has to be considered proprietary as far as DCI/IMB connectivity is concerned, and the connection length constraints the server to be in the booth, not completely separated as possible with the gigabit ethernet used by all other IMBs. But for most houses, that is not a real issue.

I would NOT buy a classic server with built-in IMB anymore, it's outdated technology from my perspective, especially with HFR 3D coming. Unless you don't care about a few thousand bucks for retrofitting already later this year.

Get the Doremi ShowVault+IMB, or make sure you get a trade-in deal for a Dolby IMB system.

There are other, very different IMB approaches in the making by Christie and GDC, but they will take a while until considered market ready and available.


- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2012, 06:34 AM:
 
I disagree on the IMB thing. If HFR 3D is not on your high priority list, then the IMB gets one nothing but extra hoops to jump through. There is the fact that the sound now has to come from the projector too. One also gets into boot up sequences since part of the server is now part of the projector. Functionally, what does an IMB get you?

-Steve
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-02-2012, 09:57 AM:
 
The upcoming IMB from Dolby will be 4K if that matters.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-02-2012, 11:09 AM:
 

quote: Steve Guttag

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Functionally, what does an IMB get you?

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Essentially just what you already know.

1. An aggravation to boot up sequences, potentially including the need to reboot the server every day (not smart).

2. Additional wiring to pull the sound out of the projector.

3. It makes all of your movies look like cheap tv soap operas.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-02-2012, 11:20 AM:
 
So, what do theatres with IMB setups do? Leave the projector powered up 24/7? Reboot the servers daily? Something else?

It seems that there should be a way to have the thing re-negotiate marriage without having to reboot the entire server.
 

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Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 03-02-2012, 01:26 PM:
 
We've got a Doremi ShowVault/IMB and a Barco DP32. The Barco's power supply fans run when the power switch is off, so it's never truly off. We leave the server on 24/7 and don't have to re-marry.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2012, 08:21 PM:
 
I'll also add that yes, for 4K one is required to have an IMB...but for your average 2K 2D theatre...what does an IMB bring?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-03-2012, 08:44 AM:
 
HD-SDI is a dead end from todays perspective. Your bandwith into the projector is multipled with an IMB. Be it for HFR or future higher DCP bandwiths.

Wether you like HFR or not. Personally, I don't like HFR for 2D. For 3D, it makes a real difference on the perceptional level. If I would skip everything I dislike in the cinema business, I would have no movies to play every other week.

In near 100% of the installations, what's the big difference in feeding an AES and /or automation cable from the projector to the sound processor/AD instead of from the server? Well, you save two SDI cables AND get rid of the weird Cinelink encryption. Remember those nice LD log issues?

At least as long you are using IMBs with Gigabit Ethernet following the DCOSA standard, you have a better choice of mixing manufacturers and getting more competition, and split possible replacement cost.
If only more IMBs would be market ready. The Doremi PCIe interface was probably the easiest for Doremi to 'externalize' their existing MediaBlock, that's the reason they were first to market. I'm sure they will later come out with a DCOSA compatible unit as well.

@Sam: ALL IMBs are 4k capable, or, better said, like the Dolby, have firmware upgrade options to 4k and HFR.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-03-2012, 11:14 AM:
 
I suppose...then again, there is nothing that stops us from going to 3G SDI...which Barco has already done. That would get us 4:4:4 on a single cable.

Depending on the booth, putting the sound in the projector and routing that elsewhere can be a big pain.

Loosing the Enigma (Link Decryptor) board would be a nice thing to do though. Just had one take a theatre down. Despite the server downloading the logs, it claimed it was full. Moved it to another screen...problem moved with it.

I definitely think Doremi is furthest along on the IMB front. I also like that they seem to be thinking about Consumer 3D formats with HDCP compliance to deal with things like BluRay and even Cable/Satellite broadcasts. Not that the others wont but again, they seem to be a step ahead.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-03-2012, 11:28 AM:
 
Regarding IMB's and 4K;

It is entirely possible future lower cost projectors will be 2K and HFR.

HFR offers up many more possible movies than 4K.

If it happens you heard it here first.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-03-2012, 12:05 PM:
 
Christie has also a 3G PIB board - don't remember whether for series 1 or 2?
 

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Posted by Marnix Koster (Member # 6755) on 03-06-2012, 03:53 PM:
 
will the HFR be an issue if you don't use 3D? or will any server be able to play hfr without 3D
 

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Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 03-06-2012, 06:03 PM:
 
It is my understanding that Series 2 projectors, paired with current Dolby and Doremi servers, can play 2D HFR content up to 60 fps without an IMB. That’s as much as the dual HD-SDI connection can handle. Even then the quality has to be lowered from from 4:4:4 12-bit to 4:2:2 10-bit, although the difference is probably invisible to most viewers.

HFR is currently being pushed specifically for 3D content. We will see if 2D HFR D-Cinema ever catches on for ”major” films, but I could imagine some smaller ”festival” type films (shorts, documentaries, low-budget features) using it – the same ones that are currently sent to festivals as 50i/60i HDCAM tapes.
Personally I’m not enthusiastic about 2D HFR at all.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-06-2012, 06:34 PM:
 
Even Series I can play HFR - if you refer to 2D/48fps as HFR. For now it seems though that HFR is only pushed for 3D - and that means, minimum 96fps input frame rate.

3G-SDI only gives the same bandwith as Dual-HD-SDI .
Dual 3G is not standardized or used to my knowledge- and no server offers it anyway.

So why stick with it when 4k, higher DCP bandwiths, HFR, etc. will need even higher performance within 1-2 years?

TI established the IMB interface as THE high-performance interface for all Series-II projectors. So there IS a standard. Why not use it then?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-07-2012, 02:00 AM:
 
Because...

For 90+% of the theatres...2D up to 48fps is all they will ever play...for 10 years + to come. Reliability wise, I'll take the SDI lines and keeping the playback in the playback device...not splitting it up.

IF 4K is in your future (not an option for .98" machines unless something dramatic changes) or HFR 3D (3D is going to die like it has in the past with just an occasional "hit" to cling to) then yes IMBs are in your future...but the other 90% won't get any benefit and only headaches.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-07-2012, 06:30 PM:
 
Steve, I get back to you on this 90+% number once The Hobbit and AVATAR sequels and their followers have hit the market. I don't see ANY 2D HFR happening for a while, though. Different picture for 3D HFR.

Besides that, Doremis IMB offers HDMI 1.4 consumer 3D on it's HDMI input for alternative content, be it BluRay or DVB-S for live broadcast.

Christie, Barco and NEC start selling their projectors with their own IMBs factory built-in now.

I wouldn't care too much for existing equipment, as none of these features are showstoppers. But whoever is in the market for a new investment should know his options and not stick to an outdated equipment standard.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-08-2012, 02:41 AM:
 
I agree that Doremi's IMB has some appealing features to it. As to projector manufacturers making their own IMBs...just who's SMS system is to work with it?

-Steve
 

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Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 03-15-2012, 10:55 PM:
 

quote: Steve Guttag

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just who's SMS system is to work with it

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quote: Steve Guttag

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You are naive! (you had to know that was coming)

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