Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 11.1 discrete audio Barco 'Auro-3D' debuts with 'Red Tails'

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 03-11-2012, 11:36 PM:

so it happened for better or worse - a soundtrack featuring 12 channels of sound. The extra channels of sound are placed above the main 5.1 channels: left high, center high, right high, left surround high and right surround high and ceiling 'voice of god' speaker. Sound is being processed via DaTaSat's AP20 processor

Theater's that featured 'Red Tails' as such were:

Regal Edwards Stadium
AMC Aventura 24
Cinemark Plano North
Moody Gardens
Santikos Paladium

Five additional titles are planned to be released in 'Auro-3D' in 2012

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-12-2012, 01:04 PM:

Going backwards again. Looks like going back to "matrix" sound.

Maybe taking the discrete, wideband channels and sending them through an EQ device to separate and send certain frequencies to their respective channels.

Another gimmick that'll fade with the other sound gimmicks.

linky

quote:
Creating a new dimension in cinema sound
Auro-3D is the next-generation 3D sound format for the cinema industry. Developed by Galaxy Studios and powered by Barco, Auro-3D turns conventional cinema audio into a fully immersive 3D sound experience, with sounds coming from all around and above the listener.

100% compatibility with existing standards
Auro-3D improves the audio experience by making intelligent use of the headroom in today's audio standards. This means that the current formats and channels can still be used for content generation and distribution. No changes to SMPTE standards or the DCI specifications are required. As an exhibitor, you will still receive 1 DCP containing the movie content – your Auro-3D decoder will simply extract the extra sound information from the existing 5.1 or 7.1 track files, when present.

Commercially viable
Auro-3D can easily be installed in new-built or existing theaters, in most cases utilizing components from your current audio system. According to your speaker layout, simply adding height speakers can bring real 3D audio to your theater. Moreover, Auro-3D sound processing is similar to, and compatible with, existing set-ups.

A unique differentiator
Auro-3D creates a unique differentiator – allowing you to maintain your premium 3D revenues and differentiate yourself from the competition.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 03-12-2012, 01:10 PM:

The question is: does it make a difference?
Customers ask from time to time if we have 7.1 (which our bigger screens do) but I'm not so sure they can really tell.
To me it's pretty darn subtle.

The best use I ever heard was the closing of Super 8 when they show the film the kids were making and you hear the projector directly behind you.
Other than that...So what?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-12-2012, 01:17 PM:

Simple. It's a "Numbers" game.

You show a series of numbers to the individual/public, and if the next series of numbers are larger than the previous, it shows improvement along with something new.

As with computers (to start an example): started out with 8088, then 286,386,486..et.al.

..and it goes from there with anything that has a number attached to it.

-Monte

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-12-2012, 01:33 PM:

Barco debuts with their new sound with a film called "Red Tail"???

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-12-2012, 01:33 PM:

All channels are discrete, there's no filtration goign on. Remember server carry effectively 16 channels of audio.

I've heard 11.1, it is effective, but will require extra speakers, amps etc. I guess not every auditoreum has room for them, not every auditoreum would benefit.

Then there's the processor, if only the Datasat can presently do it, then it's a non starter on cost grounds.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-12-2012, 02:32 PM:

quote:
your Auro-3D decoder will simply extract the extra sound information from the existing 5.1 or 7.1 track files, when present.

..this is where I got the "matrix" format-from existing files.

Bet their banking on "The Hunger Games" to really show off this new process then...and "The Dark Knight Rises".

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 03-12-2012, 03:18 PM:

they can add all those height channels of sound, but not re-add the left/center, right/center speakers, why go 11.1 when you go two extra for 13.1 [Big Grin]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-12-2012, 03:36 PM:

Monte, in that case, I have not heard Barco's process.

What I head, if I remember rightly, was using 2 x CP650/750 running in parallel effectively.

This seems rather a retrograde step, when discrete channels are available. You could use the Yamaha DME as a CP, if the usual suspects don't come up with a solution.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-12-2012, 06:59 PM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
The question is: does it make a difference?
Customers ask from time to time if we have 7.1 (which our bigger screens do) but I'm not so sure they can really tell.
To me it's pretty darn subtle.

You hit the nail on the head, the difference is almost innoticable for 95% of all movies. Most sound mixes tend to totally neglect the surround channels alltogether. And actually, surround sound is generally bad in most theaters I know, even those that got the "THX approved" stamp all over them (not that that's really worth a dime nowadays, your $100 Logitech 7.1 home cinema set boasts the same logo).

This Barco system introduces new speakers closer to the ceiling, alongside a "voice of god" speaker and I guess that many theaters will have a hard time placing those speakers.

Instead of placing new flimsy surround speakers, it would be better to consolidate them into a few larger, more powerfull, full range speakers at a few strategic positions. Most surround sound still sounds far to directional and often lacks any kind of impact.

What I actually don't understand is why the industry keeps pushing for more "discrete channels"? Is it a complot instigated by the speaker and amp maffia? We could do so much more with digital sound... Even the cheapest PC on the market has enough processing to handle like 100 channels of raw PCM sound simultaneously at CD quality bitrates. Storage also is of no concern anymore.

So, why does nobody develop a next generation sound system that's based on sound fields rather than discrete channels? The sound processour could calculate the optimal sound for the actual situation in the auditorium. I guess this could also minimize the amount of speakers and amps needed in many auditoriums, yet result in a far superior sound.

Many games have been doing this for years in a way, they map their in-game sound back to generic 7.1, 6.1, 5.1 or even 2.1 or 2.0. The results are often pretty amazing and far more immersive than most action movies tend to achieve, even when played on the same equipment.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-12-2012, 07:39 PM:

The Barco Auro 3D system is almost-but-not-quite discrete. They are using the fact that 24 bits gives you more than enough headroom to encode the extra data in the files, effectively reducing the resolution of the LPCM soundtracks from 48k/24 bit to 48k/20 bit, and using the extra 4 bits for the extra channel information. This enables distribution of a single 5.1 DCP: if you have an Auro 3D decoder then you can extract out the full 11.1 soundtrack; if not, then you play back in 5.1. So the 11.1 soundtrack is discrete, but not quite full 48/24. An elegant solution, really, but of course as the board has commented DCI will permit up to 16 channels for full range audio, so the studios and exhibitors will have to make a determination if the elegance of a single DCP inventory trumps.

Barco is using the Datasat AP20 as the cinema processor for the system, using one of the expansion slots. As the AP20 is a 16 channel processor, it is also well suited for discrete 11.1 channel mixes if and when those become available.

To Marcel's point: there is at least one company, Iosono, that is doing demonstrations of wave field synthesis for movie soundtrack reproduction. It's quite impressive!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-12-2012, 11:18 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
So, why does nobody develop a next generation sound system that's based on sound fields rather than discrete channels?

Maybe this is what you're looking for: There's another company, Immsound, which is going to be at CinemaCon, so hopefully there's enough room in the Coliseum booth for whatever equipment is required!

http://www.immsound.com

But, ultimately it's still going to be about channels:

quote:
imm sound adapts to the cinema theatre. Channel configurations can vary from 14.1 to 120+ channels. The system allows for a careful planning process that takes into account the specifics of each venue, the budget, the constraints...

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-13-2012, 02:24 AM:

quote:
Maybe this is what you're looking for: There's another company, Immsound, which is going to be at CinemaCon, so hopefully there's enough room in the Coliseum booth for whatever equipment is required!

Interresting, I've never heard of immsound, but their site looks promising. It also supports upmixing conventional surround sound (e.g. 5.1, 7.1) to "3D".

Although, I guess a small company from Spain isn't going to convince Hollywood to mix their content in their native format anytime soon, unless some company like Dolby will buy them of course.

quote:
But, ultimately it's still going to be about channels:

Sure, more channels will get you more precision. But I guess this approach is, in the end, far better than any discrete multichannel technology, like 11.1 or 22.2 or whatever will be next.

Edit: I totally overlooked David's comment, my humble excuses [Wink]

I also didn't know Iosono, but this also looks very promising. In essence, it looks like the same approach and they also seem to have a pilot with a few large Hollywood productions (Immortals, Wrath of the Titans).

It is nice to see there are quite some initiatives already, let's just hope they can settle on a standard for once...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-13-2012, 03:39 PM:

Both systems, Auro-3D and immsound need dedicated (spell: expensive) audio processors AND special mixes. Now who is expecting that these special mixes have a future for such a small installation base? They will boast some 'reference movies' - and then the cinemas will continue to advertize it as 13.1 or 23.1, while only providing 5.1 or 7.1 upmixes.

Barco needs a dedicated cinema processor, immsound needs a dedicated player+processor.
Why isn't anone going the straight DCI 16ch LPCM way? Because you can't license it, it is free to use for anyone and no one is able to make extra $$$$$$$$$ from it.

There is an in-detail article on immsound in the current edition (issue17) of cinematechnology:

http://www.cinematechnologymagazine.com/ (it's free to register)

The previous issue 16 has article on Barcos Auro-3D.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-21-2012, 10:15 AM:

Immsound and IOSONO made me curious, I wanted to hear it myself. I couldn't find a cinema within comfortable range featuring IOSONO, but I found one using Immsound.

Last wednesday (already a week ago) I've visited the UCI Cinema in Düsseldorf, which is a general multiplex-style cinema.

Like many multiplex chains, they recently introduced a new "premium" concept called "iSens". So they recently renovated their largest auditorium. They've replaced their seats with new fake leather ones, installed a 24x10m (or 76x32ft for the people that refuse to convert to the metric system [Smile]

) silver screen and a 4K NEC projector with RealD XL to go with it. In additon to that, they installed my main attraction: an immsound based sound system, advertised as 23.1 surround sound.

The whole room still smelled like a new car, so those fake leather seats were still shiny and fresh. The screen is one of the bigger multiplex screens I've recently seen. The first row is so close to it, it really is a joke. I've tried sitting in front of it and you need to look sharply up. It's like looking at a movie projected on the side of an office block while sitting almost below it... Also, you see the ambient blue light bouncing off the auditorium walls being reflected on the screen, so black is not black anymore, but blue. So much for silver screens and odd viewing angles...

I've watched John Carter in "glorious" RealD, dubbed over in German (It sucks, believe me, only Knight Rider and The A-Team dubbed in German are cool [Smile]

). Additionally, I had already seen that movie and it wasn't really one of my favorites (understatement), but I wasn't there for the movie and at least it gave me some reference. The seat I had ordered myself was awkward. I choose one that seemed right in the middle, but it had a walkway in front. Unfortunately, nobody thought about the implications on viewing angles of such a walkway... I'm quite tall, but the lower 15%-20% of my vision were coverd with the fake leather seats directly in front of me and the heads of the people occupying said fake leather seats. Maybe I should've asked for a booster seat... But, I didn't really care. I wasn't there for the great view anyway.

I was hoping to see some of those immsound trailers I've watched on YouTube, but none of them were played. No mention of immsound anywhere actually. But it was clear they were using their sound system, it was advertised on the immsound website and on a "behind the scenes" movie on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJkQfnPXd8E warning: It's in German [Razz]

). The JBL surround speakers (I've checked auditorium #2 and it's using JBL speakers) have been replaced with KCS speakers: 6 on each side in normal configuration, 8 on the back, two in the middle of each side near the top (quite a strange location) and five, very special looking ones, hanging down from the ceiling, also made by KCS.

My X-Ray eyes were blocked by the silver in the screen, so I couldn't see the setup behind the screen. But the number of visible speakers in the auditorium already exceeded the advertised number of "discrete" channels, so I guess some of those speakers share some of those "virtual channels".

Since I didn't see one of those specially crafted demo trailers, I cannot judge the sound system in its native mode, playing native content. What I can judge about is the upmixed versions of 5.1 or 7.1 digital PCM.

Full disclosure: I'm no sound engineer, but I do know the difference between good and bad sound. Some of it may be influenced by my own opinion of what's good or great although [Wink]

.

What I've heard wasn't bad. But, unfortunately, it wasn't really great either. I've heard better sound in other, normal 5.1/7.1 venues, selling tickets at conventional prices.
The accoustics of the auditorium seemed OK to me, there was no noticable echo/reverberation. The problem was the sound system itself. One of the problems was that there was far to less bass for such a big auditorium, but that's still not the main selling point of the audio system.

The main selling point, the immersive surround sound, was the main problem. It just didn't sound "immersive", the sound was far to directional, in a wrong way. You could clearly identify the speakers it was coming from and that should defy the purpose of an immersive sound experience.

I'm not certain what kind of technology immsound uses for their upmixes or for their native soundtracks. The IOSONO sound system uses Wave Field Synthesis, that should be able to create sounds that seem to originate from virtual locations. This cleary didn't sound like that. Obviously, I was listening to an upmix that doesn't have all the necessairy information for complete immersive 3D sound, but at least it shouldn't sound worse [Wink]

.

I'm not ready to write this off yet. I will keep my eyes open for locations that either use immsound with native content, IOSONO or comparable sound systems.

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 03-23-2012, 04:45 PM:

Aah Greetings All

And how nice to be back on this esteemed forum. And what an exiting few years I have had with David Attenborough experimenting with high frame rates in the North Pole! Just what I needed after a prolongued stay at my daughters, having had a spastic colon for 2 years! And so to work.

I'm unconvinced with all this new technology and extra channicular audio. After all, as human beings, we have only two ears. As one of my former colleagues, who was a Service Engineer with the mighty Westrex Company once said "Your ears don't point (expletive deleted) backwards". However, I digress.

It is my firm and fundemental belief, that there is ample room for extra audio channels within a movie theatre. Heck! There is enough space in some of the barns over here in Blightly for them!

Indeed in the Empire Theatre, ("The Showplace of The Nation") one could have space for about 4 paralell channels of surrounds, banked upon one another, and the same applies to the Odeon Theatre in Leicester Square. But what of our run of the mill multiple theatres of which our American cousins are so proud?

Nay chance. We have ceilings that are barely 4m from the rear of the stadium in UK! We have beligerent techical people who are as difficult to shift as a proverbial stain on a "can" as you say in the States. What of the space au dessous to the sheet? Aha! There lies the ducting for the a/c main! Where do we put the speakers? You should be so lucky!

However, I digress. It is not the inflexibility and lameness of the exhibitors which I forsee as a major issue in this instance - although this will the ultimate stumbling block, but it is the whole process.

How many movies have been mixed by this BS pseudo x.y system? How many Oscar winning mixers are "behind" this system? As I live and breathe this is Kintek Stereo all over again. As an 83 year old former Professor, I do not get to travel to the heady climbs that you lot do, but I would imagine that inside this pseudo-quackery device is nothing more that a few old cinema processors, de-matrixing, re-matixing, stereo-fudging, phase-shifting and then re-matixing a bog standard 5.1 track. I guess the only thing they can't fudge with is the sub! This system in my opinion is Alchemy of the worst sort.

Maybe this year, my bowel will allow me to travel to the heady climbs of Las Vegas to see what new products are available. Who knows?

Nice to hear from you all again

From a Spring-like Cambridge, goodnight

David

Edit: I have just noticed the below link and was wondering if this is to do with a new server or a new type of processor? Dolby Labs

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-23-2012, 09:36 PM:

Hmm, interesting, what could that be?

- new/enhanced sound system - 7.1++?
- adoption of the new, brighter Infitec excellence filters for Dolby 3D mkII?
- final market release of their DSS220/IMB combo?

- Carsten

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 03-24-2012, 04:23 AM:

Greetings Carsten

Who knows. Could be all three of them? I wonder if Louis Bornwasser has any further information on it, as he is a Dolby dealer! Hello Louis!! On a slightly more personal note, does anyone here have any experience of Securicare colostomy bags?

From a beautiful spring-like Cambridge, I bid you all a good day

David

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-24-2012, 06:26 AM:

Sorry, no info. I retired Sept 2011 at the age of 63, so I am no longer privy to Dolby intell.

Victim of ever-changing technology! (All my big customers signed Sony digital contracts.)

Perhaps Max Bell has an idea of what? Louis

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-24-2012, 12:53 PM:

If I were Emperor Of The Universe, I would propose the following system digital cinema audio:

*5.1 mix allowed
*9.1 mix encouraged: 5 screen channels (like SDDS-8 or the old 70mm shows), 4 discrete surrounds just like today's 7.1 setups, LFE). This has the advantage of not requiring extra speakers for the surrounds, and no extra speakers or amps for people who set up for SDDS-8 or kept their equipment from the 70mm era. Also importantly, the larger dub stages are already set up to mix this way.
* DCI spec would require that the server be able to downmix 9.1 to 5.1 simply by taking the LS + LB and summing to a LS channel, and spitting the LE and RE to the Left Screen and Right Screen. Voila - no issues with multiple DCPs or KDMs. My home theater rig is smart enough to downmix a 7.1 Blu Ray to 5.1, it seems like a digital server should be able to do the same.

This would give the cinema experience something the the lions share of home theaters will never have, without the significant expense of mounting an extra array of high or overhead speakers. And as those of you who have heard the 5 screen channel mix for shows like Spider-Man 2 or West Side Story, it really does give the mixers some significant artistic advantage over 5.1 in large auditoriums.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 03-24-2012, 01:25 PM:

It takes time and money! Neither of which are abundant after shooting and before release. Especially so if they realize or suspect they have a turkey! Louis

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-24-2012, 06:26 PM:

quote:
- new/enhanced sound system - 7.1++?
- adoption of the new, brighter Infitec excellence filters for Dolby 3D mkII?
- final market release of their DSS220/IMB combo?

If you look at the URL, it states "future of sound", so I guess it will probably be a new sound system.

Since the widespread adoption of DCI, Dolby is getting increasingly irrelevant regarding sound. After about 40 years of being the de-facto standard with one system or another, they probably want to get back into the game with their own proprietary system.

Disclaimer: It's all just a wild guess.