quote: Andy Frodsham

---

I have an instinctive dislike of so-called 'integrated' electronic devices, inspired in part by my memories of peculiar domestic hi-fi hybrids from the past.

---

...and how about some of those TV/VCR combo units from the
70's & 80's where both units gave substandard performance...
 

---

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-27-2012, 01:31 PM:
 
From the point of view of a fan of independent theatres, I am glad that these smaller systems will (probably) exist. This is going to enable theatres that cannot afford the full-size machines to survive.

From the point of view of a fan of high-quality picture and sound presentation, I worry that the result of these will be some really cheaply done installations, with high-gain screens and crappy sound systems. This sort of stuff hurts the entire industry.

I am also curious about the operating costs, since metal-halide lamps tend to be more expensive than xenons on a per-hour basis. Will this eat up the $10k (?) difference in price over the life of the machine? Even if it does, will smaller theatres be able to benefit from the spreading out of cash flow over time?

In any case, it's an interesting development. My current expectation is that the projector will outlast the server in terms of useful life, but that is not necessarily a problem if an external server can also be used. Some of this also depends upon how difficult it is to upgrade/swap the "server" part of the integrated projector. If the "server" part is just a board that can be easily replaced, then the problem is reduced. Contrast with a TV/VCR combo unit, where the "VCR" part becomes useless if the "TV" part fails and is cost-prohibitive to repair.

As for hard disks: they're pretty much disposable at this point, anyway, after about three years. As long as the failure of one disk won't cause the system to fail, it's not a major issue.
 

---

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 09-27-2012, 02:37 PM:
 
Yes, I agree with all those comments and yes, Jim, I do have particular memories of the TV/Video combos and, more recently, the TV/DVD variant!!

Time will tell, I suppose, but it will be interesting to see what sort of reviews these systems receive over the coming months.

I, for one, would like to keep my server and projector in separate boxes!
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-27-2012, 03:49 PM:
 
The whole bad-idea-combo-contraption has been around for a loooooong time. Think back to the 80s especially. Emerson...Soundesign...the kind of quality products that you could spill a beer on and not affect the sound quality.

That whole integrated thing just stinks of bad design.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-28-2012, 06:12 PM:
 
What makes an integrated server so much different from an integrated media block or Enigma, ICP, etc. that suddenly it stinks?

Heat? Wow, wondering why no one strictly propagates external ballasts and lamp houses for every digital cinema projector.

These smaller machines are a logical evolution away from the TI-OEM overloaded and overpriced series-I and series-II designs. Smaller screens must follow different economics. That's just what's happening during the last phase of the digital rollout.

Yes, they are new, and they will have their initial flaws. Like series-I, like series-II, like servers, like IMB, like 3D, like everything in a fast moving business.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-29-2012, 03:46 AM:
 
Carsten, Its putting the hard drives inside the projector.

Also every IMB out there has been less reliable/more troublesome than the media blocks.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-29-2012, 07:47 AM:
 
Not every IMS has the drives inside the projector.

And frankly, when I compare the drive mounting in an IMS1000 to any established server, it seems this allows for a better cooling scheme. Loads of air flowing around every single drive.

Every new technology has more flaws at first than the established one. That didn't keep 35mm from vanishing.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 09-29-2012, 09:09 AM:
 
Component home stereo systems vs. integrated home stereo systems.

Television and VCR vs. "Combo-Vision" integrated TV/VCR.

A computer printer, a scanner and a FAX machine vs. an "All-in-One" Printer/Scanner/FAX.

In every case, I think most people will agree that, when a single machine is designed to perform multiple function, most of the time it ends up doing none of them very well.

As the saying goes, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

Further, if you buy a Combo TV/VCR/DVD and one of the parts goes wrong, the whole thing is likely to stop working and you'll end up paying more to repair or replace the whole unit. If you buy separate TV and DVD but just the player goes bad you can replace only that unit. If, after a while, you decide you need a new television, why should you also have to replace a perfectly good DVD player?

The cost savings between buying separate components versus buying integrated systems can often be completely lost the first time you have to have something repaired or replaced.

I used to work in the TV/stereo store. I used to get a lot of people who wanted to buy those "Combo-Vision" TVs and no matter how hard I tried to tell them the same things I just talked about above. Many of those people would still buy the Combo-Vision TVs, despite my warnings.

I can tell you from experience that the largest portion of the unhappy customers who came back to the store with repairs or problems were people who bought those Combo-Visions.

I have similar horror stories about people who bought All-in-One Combo stereo systems. You know, those mini-stereos that have a Tuner, a CD player, a cassette tape deck and speaker/amps all in one chassis. They look like a boom box on steroids.

I'll bet you that more than half the people who bought one kind of Combo-Unit or another ended up coming back to the store with one kind of complaint or another.

From that experience, there's just no way that I feel comfortable recommending that anybody buy any kind of "Combo-Unit," no matter what the purpose.
 

---

Posted by Frank B. McLaughlin (Member # 6683) on 09-29-2012, 09:34 AM:
 
I think you will find the better built devices will be modular. Have a problem just pull out and replace the offending part.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-29-2012, 06:13 PM:
 
That's how all DCI compliant systems are built now, including the new S2k machines.

The IMS for all of them is only an optional item, although it will probably be sold with most of them by default.

The consumer combo-device story (which I completely agree with) can not be compared to Pro devices. The definition of 'Combo' is soft anyway. Is a common DCI server a server, media block, storage and automation combo? Certainly.
Does it cause typical 'combo' problems? Are there other non-combo devices available? Is the FILM-TECH DIGITAL CINEMA SYSTEM a combo device?

The problem with typical TV/DVD/HomeCinema/HIFI combos is not that they are combos, but that they are NOT modular.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-29-2012, 08:30 PM:
 

quote: Carsten Kurz

---

Is the FILM-TECH DIGITAL CINEMA SYSTEM a combo device?

---

quote: Brad Miller

---

integrating TOO MANY different things together in one box

---

quote: Carsten Kurz

---

I don't know yet wether I would strictly rule out the UHP lamps. (NEC/Sony). They do have their benefits. And they eliminate the risk of a xenon bulb explode with all associated cost if you're over warranty hours. They also offer a nice and easy way to balance 2D/3D brightness.

---

quote: Carsten Kurz

---

don't know yet wether I would strictly rule out the UHP lamps. (NEC/Sony). They do have their benefits. And they eliminate the risk of a xenon bulb explode with all associated cost if you're over warranty hours. They also offer a nice and easy way to balance 2D/3D brightness.

---

quote: Carsten Kurz

---

All of these machines offer HFR. Wether they offer enough brightness for 3D depends on your screen size. Due to the compact design and limited space and lamp options, Dolby3D will certainly not be possible with any of these, but active 3D or MasterImage/RealD should be possible, again within the limits of your screen size.

---

The Barco DP2K-10Sx is compatible with the built-in Dolby 3D kit. It is the only one of the compact projectors to support it.
 

---

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-30-2012, 12:17 PM:
 
UHP explosions are very rare occurance; I have seen one out of the hundreds of projectors I have handled in the past five years. UHP ballast tends to slowly ramp up current after ignition, Most UHP bulbs are in a module which helps to contain damage. Mercury is bad since it can make us more of a "Mad Hatter" then we are presently.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-30-2012, 04:03 PM:
 
Yes, these lamps are typically glas shielded, they are not bare bulbs like xenons.

I have seen one UHP bulb burst - but it all stays within the enclosure.

They are definitly easier to handle than Xenon bulbs. A blown xenon in your D-Cinema machine can cost you 5000-8000US$ if you're unlucky. An UHP will simply be exchanged at a few hundred dollars, including mirror. Cost-wise - we have to wait and see, but the Sony 6-lamp-UHP cluster is quoted at the same price as a conventional 2-3kW Xenon bulb.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Jure Maticic (Member # 7197) on 11-07-2012, 02:34 AM:
 
Well, the first info on the price of UHP lamps for Sony is around 1300 Euro for a cluster of six 450W lamps. The 350W are way under 1000 Euro, about 800 I think.

btw ... has anyone seen the new Sony and the new s2k machines in action? I hear there are/were test screenings on different trade shows.
 

---

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 11-07-2012, 06:47 AM:
 
I went to a demo of the Sony SRX R515 projector at the ShowEast convention. The clips they displayed where both 2 and 4K material....a final clip was from an image produced by a Sony F65 4K camera. The contrast on this projector is really excellent. The bulb set of six is rated for 2000 hours for the high wattage (able to produce 15000 lumen) and 3000 hours for the low wattage (11000 lumen). The unit can operate with less than six lamps in case of failure or to operate less bright. Image shown was about 20 feet wide.

On the show floor Barco and Christie where shown in operation with great result considering light levels on the show floor; I did not see the NEC displaying an image.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-08-2012, 05:20 PM:
 
http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=3029

'The NC900C will be available in December 2012 with a two-year limited warranty (for U.S. and Canada only), including parts and labor. The estimated street price of the NC900C in North America is $29,999 and includes projector, lens and IMS.'

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 11-15-2012, 02:14 PM:
 
From my current investigations:
The NEC NC900C-A costs considerably less than the others. They claim lowest total cost of ownership.
Christies are a bit less than the Barco's and they claim lowest total cost of ownership. Christie claims brightest in class.
Barco's are the most expensive for no apparent reason I can figure.
I didn't research the Sony, as it's out of our price range.

NEC NC900c-a
http://www.dcinematoday.com/dc/pr.aspx?newsID=3029

http://www.necdisplay.com/p/digital-cinema-projectors/nc900c-a

Christie Solaria one
http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us/news-room/press-releases/pages/christie-solaria-one-begins-shipping;-high-value-convenient-solution-will-benefit-emerging-markets-and-community-theaters.aspx

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us/solaria-one/Pages/default.aspx

Barco DP2K-10Sx
http://www.filmjournal.com/filmjournal/content_display/news-and-features/news/digital-cinema/e3i3d1cb06e1b0ff9332a3b5d5dca0973f1

http://www.barco.com/en/Specsheets/c0dd91af-f2a0-4e6e-acf9-b26f01f8a004/dp2k-10sx.pdf

I wasn't able to get ansi lumens for the Barco or NEC, so I'm guessing Christie is the brightest.
Christie and NEC are shipping now or very shortly. Barco is March 2012-ish best guess.

Does anyone know where we can see any of these in operation on the East Coast, or Northeast in particular?
 

---

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-15-2012, 02:19 PM:
 
and we should consider all these new projectors brightness after 300 or 400 hours of projection... I pretty sure some surprise ahead...
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-15-2012, 04:09 PM:
 
From what I see, the price spread looks logical to me. The Barco S2k is the closest to a full blown series-II projector - Xenon, generic IMB slot, Enigma option, retractable lamp house, IMS with integrated storage, etc. It's a scaled down Barco series II machine.

The Christie has a more basic IMS without integrated storage, and less expansion options, maybe also your quoted price is without full motorized lens (US version).

Then the NECs are usually cheaper and the NC900C has the twin UHP bulb, yet the same IMS as the Barco.

As far as brightness goes, they should be quite similiar - around 9000 lumens peak with the brightest lamp option.
With a smaller screen, you should be fine even with lamp aging. Some UHP types age a lot quicker than others. Let's hope the NEC bulbs are not too bad in that aspect.
Still I'm sure these low-power xenons will have a nicer brightness roll-off. The Christie 1kW lamp is quoted at 4000hrs.

Has someone seen quotes for these NEC replacement bulbs?

Some of these S2k machines offer some unusual options like brightness boost or non-DCI compliant higher brightness modes, still I think there is little difference between them once set up in your cinema. Only the Sony has a considerably higher output at 15.000 lumens.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 11-19-2012, 09:25 PM:
 
I've been watching the news releases and chatter about the new projectors since we're one of the small theatre's needing to switch and figured I would get your opinions on our needs.
We have a 22' ft. wide screen and 65' throw from booth to screen and leaning toward the Barco S2k, mostly because it's what our service tech recommends and it's what he represents. We are going to include the 3D with the purchase and will be upgrading the processor and what ever else is needed also. Sounds like the other projectors are less money and available now instead of late 1st quarter '13 like the Barco. We've been quoted $35,000 plus 3D for the Barco S2k and have the funds for the conversion but if one of the others are $6,000 less for same results it only makes since to consider.
We've just reopened/purchased our single screen theatre after being closed for many years and this is all new to us so any input would be helpful. We are currently showing movies Friday-Sunday and are near the end of our fund drive for the digital conversion which I know is a hole different topic on film tech but it was our only hope and has worked out great. Would love to hear everyone's ideas and opinions on our options, it's exciting to know where going digital like all the big boys but confusing too.

Thanks

Concrete Theatre
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-20-2012, 02:20 AM:
 
Which 3D system have you been offered? How many seats? I understand your are scratching with your feet, but you should take the time to wait as long as possible until some experience is there with the S2k machines. The Christie could be an option for you as well.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 11-20-2012, 11:37 AM:
 
I'm hearing the NEC is only 4500-5000 lumens. I didn't consider the roll off. Bulb replacements are recommended in pairs at $700-800 for a pair. Even with the small screens,I'm not totally comfortable adding Master Image 3D to the NEC will work. Christie is claiming 8500 ansi lumens, and Barco is claiming 9000.

The Christie lamps are sized to the screen, which can be a cost savings too. It will substantially increase the loan payment though. The NEC takes a lot less power, which makes sense at the much lower brightness.

These are running with 2 year warranty. Any thoughts on the real lifetime of these units? I'm seriously laughing at the 15 years so many manufacturers are claiming.
 

---

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-20-2012, 02:19 PM:
 
if I'm correct, theses S2K unit can be placed under (manufacturer) warranty for up to 10 years. So I guess that - if (and only if) correctly serviced - they could run for at least 10 years without major breakage (statistically speaking ...).

Only a guess.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-21-2012, 07:25 PM:
 
3D with the NEC will be tough.

14fl for up to 30ft screens Gain 1.8 indeed equals around 5000 lumens. And I guess that is peak. Certainly okay for 2D. With 3D, the screen needs to be VERY small and probably Gain 2.4/silver screen.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-21-2012, 07:58 PM:
 
It's weird how this stuff is sized, even for 35mm.

In the theatres where I have worked, the most common screen size is about 30' wide (often, but not always, common-height). With 35mm, this is usually just slightly too big to be lit with the most common size lamp (2kw) and really requires a 2500w or 3kw xenon to properly illuminate a screen that size through the life of the lamp. But lots of people cheap out and install 2kw lamps on screens this size. It kind of works, but not really.

The same thing will probably happen with these smaller D-cinema projectors: the NEC mentioned above (at least...there might be others) seems to be just slightly underpowered for the most common screen sizes. I'm willing to bet that lots of theatre owners cheap out and install these when they really should be looking at the full-size projectors.

A 5k lumen video projector really isn't that impressive, especially since the 5k number is usually pretty optimistic. I have used 7k lumen video projectors on the aformentioned 30' screens for years, and they never quite seem to be bright enough, either.

Note that most theatres where I have worked have had 1.0 gain screens, or worse. Non-silver gain screens seem to be a relatively recent thing.

(Does the NEC use a xenon lamp or some sort of mercury or metal-halide lamp?)
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-22-2012, 05:43 PM:
 
NEC uses two UHP Lamps.

It is certainly an economical issue with the S2k machines. These small imagers will not be as light efficient as the larger ones. And OHPs rarely go beyond 300-400Watts anyway.

At the same time - the same manufacturers offer their established range of series-II machines. Why should they cannibalize sales for these machines with the much cheaper S2k offerings?

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 11-22-2012, 06:16 PM:
 

quote: Scott Norwood

---

A 5k lumen video projector really isn't that impressive, especially since the 5k number is usually pretty optimistic. I have used 7k lumen video projectors on the aformentioned 30' screens for years, and they never quite seem to be bright enough, either.

---