Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: HFR - How Freaky it's Running?

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Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-20-2012, 01:26 PM:

Hi all,

did some of you already spend good time working around this f*$#@ HFR upgrade, testing and using (with test and/or any other labs contents) here and there, to share your feedback?

Personally, at the beginning I was enthusiast thinking How Fucking Realistic it is - but after some 48 hours playing around on dozens of screens upgrading and testings, I start to think How Freeky it's Running for now (actual SW/FW/SM of course).

No doubt this has to be ameliorated later on to run smoother in production mode.

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 11-20-2012, 01:35 PM:

i will start to thest next week.
i so the trailer at cinemacon and it looks great.

but i think is going to be hard that all the companys start to use this format dont you think.

mike moreno
mexico

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 11-20-2012, 01:43 PM:

Well for me HFR is giving me headache, partially because of the picture (Master Image wheel is spinning so slowly, much slower than with normal 3D, still wonder if that is normal) but also because of the really bad way Doremi and Barco are handling it. I mean forcing a communication error when switching to a different firmware and I think it is confusing one of our projectors a lot while two other projectors are handling it easily with repairing the marriage after the switch and one is just stubborn (keeping a tradition).

Kudos however to YES (from Ymagis), their engineers have been helping me understand about a lot what is going on and have been making it a lot more clear for me and thanks to them it is working at least in 3 booths now. So far so good, it is just waiting for Doremi and Barco to fix it properly without such a dreadful way of firmware switching and losing communication between the Server and Projector.

However, from what I have seen it was indeed looking really sharp. But in the end I wonder, is it worth all the headache and all the extra time and how many movies will actually come in this format?

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-20-2012, 02:01 PM:

Joris:
Master Image low spinning is "normal" as Master Image system are only operating simple flash when in HFR (yeah, I know, PITA...). XPanD ones are operating at double flash (instead of regular triple flash in "regular" 3D mode).
For the firmware load/unload and all weirdness around all that integration, I completely agree. I guess we (HFR users) are all in a raw hide path for now, that could (and will probably) be ameliorated by manufacturer. Afterall, HFR is really new and was not really defined completely until some couple of weeks ago...

Mike: there are pro and cons, but I wish one day we could use 120fps everywhere (ShowScan spirit?) and nobody will think about coming back to the "old age of 24fps". Anyway, this will take time (technology and habits) - for now, it's still a little bit too raw hide for massive usage (but no doubt I guess Doremi will quickly smoothen that - like it was for the subtitling engine at Serie-II projector beginning).

Posted by Frederick Lanoy (Member # 5416) on 11-20-2012, 02:57 PM:

Hi Joris,

Check your Dark Time setting in The "3 D File" of the Barco Communicator. It should be 1740 in Single Flash. If it not, you'll have a lot of ghosting. This data comes from Master-Image.

Double flash will come for HFR presentation with Master-Image but not for "The Hobbit".

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-20-2012, 03:33 PM:

Frederick Lanoy : please check with Master Image - latest data from them (yesterday) related to The Hobbit HFR is 1736 (single flash, yep).

See "MasterImage 3D HFR Set-up" [PDF File 1.7MB] from masterimage3d.com site for more infos.

Posted by Frederick Lanoy (Member # 5416) on 11-20-2012, 03:58 PM:

Ok. It changed since last week then. I think it looks pretty good despite the single flash.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 11-20-2012, 04:00 PM:

I think in due time, when all companies have gotten the kinks out of the cable they might find a solution for the "blinking" with Passive 3D. (you can sort of see the wheel spinning)
Is that problem occuring with other passive systems?

I am not saying it does not look good but I just noticed it instantly when the test file showed a very bright scene. (picture however was razor sharp and with dark scenes it was hardly visible and after a few minutes you no longer notice it so much)

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-20-2012, 04:05 PM:

I agree that everything does not looks very mature now. Cat 745 is not any better, we are at the 4th SW release in a month or so.
Projectors need a separate setup to work in HFR and wheels take time to sync to the new speed - and no "black 48fps" is available at the moment. Also no test charts are available, I had to make mine.
It'll get better but if they're not improving it quickly it will be a massive disaster, with macros to switch, settings to be re-done etc. etc.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 11-20-2012, 04:09 PM:

I believe there is a "black 48fps" pattern, we have it on our servers. And we recieved from our intergrator a test chart (if I read the mail correctly), also Warner Brothers supplied one with The Hobbit case I think, yes it is part of a clip but it does work, just need to work fast I think then ;-).

But some more support from the manufacturers of the projectors and servers would be nice.

What is also annoying is that since it is so brand new that the TMS developpers havent had time to intergrate it in their software yet. Because they havent recieved the information how it all works yet and how they can intergrate it, all details have been released so late that it is just very frustrating for many people I think. Not just projectionists and engineers.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-20-2012, 04:25 PM:

My, what an international thread this is so far... [beer]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-20-2012, 05:02 PM:

TMS integration: on the way. I guess it's a matter of days now to have majors (more spread) TMS systems to be upgraded to support HFR tweaks (which are really not a big drama to integrate in a TMS in fact).

International thread: that's all about the magic of film-tech forums (and thank's to P. Jackson too [Smile]

)

Other passive systems: I did not had time yet to try passive XPanD system (received it yesterday noon) nor a dual Master Image projection with fixed glasses (nor a DephtQ and Volfoni passive anyway).... if somebody have some feedback, could be appreciated ("knowledge mean nothing if not shared").

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 11-20-2012, 05:34 PM:

Well the TMS developpers still have a little while until they need to be ready for The Hobbit luckilly [Wink]

.

And well sure it is an international forum, after all film is universal, everybody in the world has seen it one way or another ;-). And Mr. Jackson unites all with his new way of making movies [Razz]

frustrating us all I mean ;-).

I did not know XpanD made passive too, I was actually thinking of IMAX and RealD or does it digitally work the same way as Master Image in a way? The only IMAX projector I have seen was a 70mm one and havent seen a RealD installation actually nor any of the other ones Olivier mentioned. I do know the LG system but that is home cinema ;-) and is everyday turned on at my home (will HFR make the way to home cinema as well?).

But I am curious about all systems actually, always want to compare different systems with eachother. Think I saw Avatar on 5 different screens to be able to compare it.

So I guess I will watch The Hobbit in a lot of cinemas too [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-20-2012, 07:27 PM:

Master Image is running at 48fps with a 2:2 (single flash) so it is going to have a bit of a "film" look to it. The others are supposed to go to 4:2 or double flash for a 96Hz/eye.

I have not had issues with the CAT 745 really. In Europe, there was 4.5.2 to handle 25fps but other than that there was the original release of 4.5.0.77 and then 4.5.1. It is normal to expect faster revisions on new equipment...especially when it hits the field. Anyone remember when series 2 equipment came out? We were getting revisions daily!

Dolby does have a 48fps test chart for setting the color wheel. Note, for testing the system you will need to use Warner Brothers Hobbit test because it is using a unique data transfer rate of 450...which no other 3D movie is using.

Due to the change in flash rate, one will need separate macro/title/channels.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-20-2012, 08:09 PM:

We had a Hobbit test package. It wasn't a difficult setup on Doremi/Barco, about 40 minutes or so.
The projector red tail light and server communication (non)errors are supposed to be curable by doing two things: remove the IMB from device manager and delete all server licenses (except 4K, Real-D, and closed captioning!!!) then reboot (the Certainty and its licenses will all come back), then change the server IP address to something else (that doesn't conflict with other equipment obviously), reboot and test the projector connection, change it back, and reboot again (and test). I don't know if this actually worked, I had to leave after the main upgrades and tests were done.
There is indeed 3D 48fps black in the new Doremi software. I've heard that using this makes the transition between HFR and 24fps less flashy on screen but I will have to do some tests when time allows to confirm that.
Remember to save the altered 3D file in a new name like RealD_HFR.3d and use that in the new HFR macros: if you just save it as the same "RealD.3D" then you've changed your 24fps shows to double flash.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-20-2012, 08:52 PM:

Dolby JUST posted 48fps Blanks and the 3D sync clips.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-20-2012, 11:26 PM:

Just reading through this thread makes me reminisce about hearing "It's just a simple software upgrade" about a hundred times at CinemaCon.

I knew THAT was too good to be true.

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 11-21-2012, 03:53 AM:

I successfully tested the Warner Bros 450Mb/s test footage today on a GDC SX-2000AR and NEC projector.
Some Doremi/Christie upgrades to do in the next few days, fun times.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-21-2012, 06:54 AM:

If any of the Christies are 4K...make sure you get the latest-latest patch 3.1.1

Mike...for the most part, this is just a software upgrade...having to set the 3D apparatus for different rates is not new...it is just that the 6:2 24fps has been where we have been for some time...if you lived through series 1 machines and having to have special versions to deal with their limitations you would have had multiple files too.

Note, the IMBs should deal with the speed change pretty instantly...it is the 3D mechanisms that have to see that the rate just change and adjust that would require some small amount of blank to adjust...not unlike if you had a film projector change speed mid run...anything with mass takes time to move to another state.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-21-2012, 05:18 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley

Just reading through this thread makes me reminisce about hearing "It's just a simple software upgrade" about a hundred times at CinemaCon.

I knew THAT was too good to be true.

No Dave, that's just pure truth: it's just a simple software upgrade... but:
1- software is still somewhat new/fresh - so raw hide...
2- operation is still a little bit freaky to give you some fun if you lacked somes [Smile]

I guess no doubt it will smoothen quickly - I hope really quickly [Big Grin]

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 11-22-2012, 06:00 PM:

Today was actually the first day it caused a real headache, dont get me wrong, the hardware and software was functioning well (besides the communication error which the servers even give when you first boot up the servers and projectors) but after watching 15 minutes I got a huge migraine out of it which lasted for a few hours.

I do find it odd that the servers give already at startup a communication error, a message that we will see in those booths the entire day we discovered today.

I hope that the manufacturers soon find a solution to it all.
What I do wonder is, why is a KDM required for the content of the Hobbit package? I mean it is landscapes and the trailer over and over again, can't get the song from the Dwarves out of my head now [Razz]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-22-2012, 06:10 PM:

For the "communication error" -> will be solved (issue acknowledged by manufacturer, identified - on the way to be fixed) - I hope before next 12/12/12.

For you headache on the other hand... [Smile]

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-04-2012, 02:30 AM:

First reviews are in and I guess I am not the only one who seems to be getting a headache (though the booth where I got the headache is now running smoother and no longer causes a headache) but still, the movie is alright but the HFR seems to ruin it in some reviews.

I am curious about what the audience will say about it.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 12-05-2012, 09:52 AM:

Joris: you'll like that paper [Wink]

-> http://theweek.com/article/index/237247/why-isnbspthe-hobbit-making-some-moviegoers-sick

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-05-2012, 11:40 AM:

Well they give a clear reason but for now I will give the technology the benefit of the doubt and will watch it during the night show in Almere.

I think partially why I was perhaps having a bit of a headache is of course because we had to focus on the picture, on the words in the corners of the screen. In a way, they wanted us to find "flaws/problems".

I remember the first time I watched a 3D movie I had a similar feeling about the picture that it was causing a small headache.

Also many reviews pointed out it takes to get used to so I can't wait to see the movie next week and will let you know how I think of it [Smile]

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 12-09-2012, 11:38 AM:

so are theaters that are showing 'The Hobbit' in HFR upcharging tix price for the new technology, or does it go hand in hand with the standard '3D' pricing? I was reading that some theater is charging $22 for the whole kit and kaboodle. (EDIT: nevermind they charge that amount for all their 3D movies)

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-09-2012, 03:10 PM:

At the cinema where I work there is no extra charge, people can experience HFR for the same rate as a normal 3D movie.

Btw, is the 2K copy just for Netherlands or are all the DCP's for The Hobbit just 2K?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-09-2012, 03:27 PM:

Only 2k - everywhere.

- Carsten

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-10-2012, 06:21 PM:

Yup, High Frame Rate (in a low resolution).

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-11-2012, 09:15 PM:

Just came home from The Hobbit, wow, the test footage does not do the HFR justice. I think the amount of noticable flickering is not more than 2 minutes long. The picture was wonderful, no headache, so very nice and bright as if you are watching 2D, please more movies [Smile]

. (I was using Polaroid 3D glasses which does make a difference after sometimes switching between the usual plastic ones from around 1.5 euro)

The lens change was not that clean though as if the Black 3D 48 was not working completely well and yes, it was noticable during the trailers that the Master Image wheel was spinning slowly but during the movie it was working like a charm.

In many aspects The Hobbit blows Avatar for me away and though I wont watch it as much as I have seen Avatar it is ranked higher in my list of favorite movies.

Now time to sleep since it is 04:15 AM [Razz]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 12-11-2012, 10:20 PM:

Another projectionist report can be found there (french projectionist forum) http://www.projectionniste.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=83192#p83192

A loose translation:

quote:
First HFR screening passed.

The few spectators I interviewed at the end are quite satisfied in general.

3D brightness level is greatly improved as motion smoothness. Some have told me they have not taken a 2:45 long "regular 3D" movie, but this HFR screening went much better. But some actually felt that "it was not shot with film cameras."

Personally, I have seen only a few passages, but I think I'll love it.
I do not like 3D in general, but there it is possible that it (HFR) restores interest. I feel that the 3D effects are much more visible. I'll go see the film in full lengh by the end of the week to confirm or not.

Seems HFR do the job [Smile]

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-12-2012, 02:44 AM:

Indeed it does, thanks to the test material I was quite sceptic but The Hobbit blew it all away. A job well done Mr. Jackson. Now I would love to see more 3D movies like this.
I just hope they wont convert movies that are in 2D to this kind of 3D.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-12-2012, 03:32 AM:

Brightness-wise, it should not make any difference. But this is not the first report I hear that says that brightness has improved. Could it just be that the higher frame rate gives the impression of a brighter picture? Like more contrast gives the impression of a more sharp picture!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-12-2012, 06:26 AM:

Note...for the "bright" versions, they have upped it to 7fL. So...you are talking about a 17% improvement over 6fL or a 56% improvement over the "standard" 4.5fL. So, depending on the theatre, it may very well be actually brighter.

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-12-2012, 08:59 AM:

7 (±2) fL also happens to be the new DCI recommended practice. Bring on those laser light sources already!

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-12-2012, 09:17 AM:

Just so we're clear, that page is HFR recommend practice. Standard recommended practice for 3D is still 4.5 +/- 2 (unless there is something documented on another page that I did not see).

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-12-2012, 09:19 AM:

It does say ”for any 3D presentations”.

There never really was a ”standard recommended practice” for 3D brightness until now, only varying instructions from the studios. 4.5 fL has just been a common de-facto number, but I have never seen any of those instructions say that 4.5 – 2 = 2.5 fL would be acceptable… In fact, if you look at Disney’s projection notices, they’ve been specifying 4.5 fL as the minimum brightness since Tron.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-12-2012, 09:28 AM:

Actually, I believe it's +/- 1, since I've always heard 3.5-5.5 is the acceptable range. Yes, 2.5 is too low. Sorry 'bout that.

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-12-2012, 09:50 AM:

The Disney projection notices did indeed specify 4.5 (±1) fL for a long time. Then for Tron and Mars Needs Moms, they kept the ”standard” at 4.5 but the ”acceptable range” was upped to 4.5–5.5.

Finally, for John Carter and Brave they suddenly said you should aim for 6.0 fL, with an acceptable range of 4.5–6.5. So it’s a bit all over the place, but you can see they’re slowly raising the bar.

(Yes, I know those projection notice sheets are ridiculous, which is why it will be great to finally have a standard. Then we only need the technology to achieve those levels on larger screens, without sacrificing quality…)

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 12-12-2012, 09:58 PM:

did some one make christie 2230, doremi show vault and xpanD system work?
we have this combination and it work but i guess single flash so the technician said is not the correct way. is that true?

mike moreno
mexico

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-13-2012, 06:00 AM:

I was told XpanD units have to be modified by XpanD to work in HFR. After that it should work with double flash I reckon.
That said, Master Image work with single flash (or the wheel would take off) and Warner approve it.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 12-13-2012, 12:23 PM:

I doubt the wheel would take off because it is running really slowly, as it spins when you are playing 2D content in a 2D show.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 12-13-2012, 01:46 PM:

Mike : "Yes you can" -> software upgrade projector and server, and check with XPanD your synchbox is okay or need to be changed.

Marco: I confirm. With XPanD (active), double flash for 3D@48fps. Need a recent synchbox - or swap/exchange the old synchbox with XPanD distributors.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 12-14-2012, 10:03 PM:

at the screening I saw today - the projector just crashed and stopped running right after the trailers. The manager came in issued some passes, thinking it wouldn't reboot up, but thankfully it did. As for the HFR image - it's definitely crisp and ultra sharp, but it did have a strong video picture quality that one gets used to. Going to hear the movie in Atmos at Tysons next week [not in 'HFR']

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 12-14-2012, 10:19 PM:

Can A.T.M.O.S. and HFR even co-exist in the same movie? Wouldn't that cause a person to explode?

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 01-07-2013, 04:37 PM:

Saw this in HFR + Atmos at the Regal E-Walk on 42nd street in Manhattan. The projection and presentation was fine. I didn't sense any physiological issues because it was in HFR. But I thought the HFR looked absolutely horrible. I felt like I was watching a live British TV show. I simply cannot imagine why Peter Jackson wanted his movie to look like this. Personally, I don't think the 3D added much. The Dolby Atmos was actually quite wonderful.

If I elect to see the sequels, it will most definitely not be in HFR, even if that means giving up the Atmos. I really hope that HFR is not the future of movies because it would certainly destroy them for me.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 01-13-2013, 08:36 AM:

Hope Barco and Doremi soon come with a fix for the "switching firmware" part. Sometimes the booth that is playing the HFR version refuses to switch back to the firware for 24fps.

Sure a reboot can fix it but a more solid solution would be nice.