This is topic Refitting for Digital - Scaler options, Sound Processors in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 11-27-2012, 04:36 AM:
 
Hey all,

I really have appreciated reading about everyone else's headaches : )

Here are our dilemnas: Please feel free to respond with advice and experience: )

We are an old cinema in Geneva, Switzerland, recently taken over by the 2 projectionnists who have become the managers. We have turned into a non-profit, and I am the go-to techie/projectionnist board member, the art/independent/event film programmer,
and board member...

We have a very low budget, and need to expand to digital to expand our offering, and the quality of our projections.

We would like local filmmakers to be able to test their films at our cinema for color correction checks, DCP and File consistency,sound, etc..

A tall order on a low budeget....

We have decided to go with a Christie 2210/Doremi serveur.
A budget choice - we will miss the 4k shift over the next 5 years,
but our screen is small, our cinema only seats 100.
Bray limits....
Without a 12 bit capable scaler which has dual DVI output,
our Bluray tests will need to be done at only 8-bit RGB with the single DVI in.

Video card limits.....
Similarly, this will limit the image quality of video cards which only have hdmi outs..(10-bit)...However, with the portable BM 3-D, or the AJA Thuderbolt, we could use a dual SDI patch
to get the full 10 bit RGB each is capable of, and even be ready to handle a 12-bit Bluefish...

--------- Sound-------

I would like us to get the Dolby CP 750, and feed the old CP 55 into an analog switcher, where we could also put in our OPPo's DTS decoding input, and a mixer patch for live events (music to film, presentations and debates, etc..)

-----The Christie 3d scaler - any experience-----
The other thought I had was the New Christie 3D Scaler/CP combined....It seems with the new HDMI in we could actually not lose info, and send full 12-bit images from the oppo through a dual DVI in to the CP2210.
-----
But Christie's old scaler is so limited (max 8 bit RGB in), I doubt their quality...and they do not have a dual SDI option in, which means the portable video cards we use as travelling proectionists
(BM Ultrastudio for the moment, looking into the AJA, which permits HDMI 10-bit RGB, and their staff claims the hardware is 12-bit ready, just needs new code...we'll see) will be limited to an HDMI only in, which on the BM card is limited to YUV only, which means I have to trust the Christie scaler to treat the color change right...
Not the best option if we want to let local filmmakers test their color corrections in our cinema....

In addition, given their first gen scaler is so-so, how will their first gen sound processor be???
----------------------
Speakers -
we have EV's in the surround...

we have been offered used KCS by our provider...Any thoughts???

--------
Amplifiers - we have 2 Fostex AP 3060....

our provider has offered 3 used, but unspecified as of yet...
Crown best?

-----------Soundprocessor Disagreement-------
However, our provider wants us to pick up his used CP 500..
We already have a CP-55...

In other cinemas in town the same provider has put in USL JSD-80, with 35 in.
The cinemas which use this have been reviewed as good but not great by local Swiss sound-mixers..
I did a sound test at one studio, and then the same film in a cinema which has the USL JSD-80, and there is a weird 'veil' starting at about 2k, continuing until 10 or higher..

The cinema with the best reviews by the mixers uses the CP 650..
It's an old school cinema, high ceilings, theater style - quite unlike our 1960's rectangular box...

Our provider vehemently disagrees, and claims it is a bad option - it just gives him troubles. Another provider has solid reviews from the cinema where he installed the 750's, also to correct the same provider's 'mistakes' in one cinema....

OK,

thanks,

Mark
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 11-27-2012, 10:00 AM:
 
You have a lot on your plate to deal with with a very low budget and this may be unrealistic.

I will only comment on your audio options.

If you are doing the CP55/750 route, I would have the 55 feed the 750 and not the other way around. It requires only a custom output to input cable.

Or, find a good used 650. They are around at about the same price as a 750 and will support film formats and you get rid of the CP55 which was good in its time, but far too expensive and complicated to upgrade.

You do need very good audio if you are looking to attract professionals to your place so the best speakers and amps you can afford should be used.
 

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Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 11-27-2012, 02:04 PM:
 
Hi Mark,

I don't know what you call a "low budget".

For projection and scaler part, perhaps you could consider CP2210+Doremi ShowVault IMB+AP-20 sound processor - with any regular PC with an HDMI output, this can make a pretty streamlined solution.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 11-27-2012, 03:48 PM:
 
Thanks Sam,

Yes, sorry if the order wasn't clear -
Our idea was to feed the CP-55 into the 750. Since the 750 actually has a real 5.1, we would probably need a splitter for the mono surround channel from the CP-55 to feed correctly into the Surround Left and Right of the 750.

We thought that, since most everyone is distributing in DCP or Bluray, and most independents are using Bray or files,
it would not be worth our money to upgrade our 35mm sound to 5.1,
and that the older 35mm we might still show will not be in 5.1 anyway...
----
Our total budget for the sound changes is under 12,000 CHF (about the same as the USD, but our prices are often 10-50% more)
Example - the oppo 93eu dezoned in Switzerland - now down to 829 CHF, but the 103 dezoned is only available from France at 850 Euros...
----------
Our provider told us he couldn't find anything less than 5,000 chf for the CP 650 -- and the 750
------
So our budget just doessn't go as far...
-----
Are you familiar with the Fostex AP 3060 as amps -
should we just keep them and find a third?

---------- The 650 or 750 -----
The price of the CP-650 used in Switzerland is actually quite a bit higher than that of the 750...So we thought the more recent processor, the 750 would be better...

But...Our installer hates the 750, and is basically refusing this option, which we find quite strange...
He says it's not a good processor - what has your experience been with it?

He recommends the USL since it handles DTS and 35mm in as well, which the 750 does not do... and the 650 does not do DTS...
------
Then the new Christie scaler (SKA-3D) came up, which would provide us a cheaper alternative to buying Both a sound processor and a scaler
(a CP -650 and Pulse Analog Way scaler),
It provides Dolby and DTs decoding, plus surround analog in,
and give us a dual DVI out (according to Christie London up to 16-bit color) which also could handle HDMI in at full 12-bit.

Our worry is :
a) quality of sound treatment and finetuning for our cinema -
which processor allows that for a reasonable price?
b) ditto for image, given Christie problems with scalers we have seen in other cinemas...
In comparison, the Pulse Analog Way scaler is in use at 4 very happy cinemas we know of, with rock solid performance...But it is only single Dvi-i, and thus is only 8-bit...
quite a downgrade for an oppo, or a BMagic or AJA 10-bit video card...

-----------------
New worry - Another cinema, where I work had their Christie model give out. They have waited over a month for the Christie cards to come in from the US...and are still waiting for their machine to be repaired - and their replacement projector, the 2210, just gave out after 10 days of use! (the block died!!) ...

Is our new Christie going to be a cheap, over 55,000 Swiss Franc headache? ... Anyone in the US/Europe with better Christie repair experience? Getting nervous, as we have already put the money down for the 2210 and the Doremi..
-------------------
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-27-2012, 04:45 PM:
 
Is there some sort of a deadline? Also, you shouldn't bother about the quality of the processor if you don't want to put your MAIN speakers to the test.

CP750, JSD80, AP20 are all 'good enough'. The 750 is less expensive, but also more limited. People say it's slightly noisy, though I have a hard time believing it. Maybe on the analog ins.

The JSD80 is an excellent choice if you also want to do 35mm. The AP20 is about the same price range.

Regarding the scalers - you'll have to wait and see. The Christie is not a high-end grading projector, I guess you will have a hard time telling the 10bit from the 12Bit scaler options.

Get the Christie and Doremi in and start playing to get some money in. Then wait and see what the other target group actually needs and demands.

Christie is the largest manufacturer of cinema projectors, with the most experience. However, if the integrator or local distributor is bad, Christie can't help much.
If a replacement has to be shipped from the US or canada, it's not Christie's fault, but the integrator's or local Christie representative, as all parts should be available locally.

55.000CHF is a bit on the high side if only for the projector. Then again, it's switzerland, you should be used to that.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-27-2012, 05:47 PM:
 
I don't know about Europe pricing but that's a crazy overcharge for a CP750. A new CP650 will cost a fortune but there are a lot of used ones available for about the same price as a new CP750, as Sam said.
I would tend to go Barco in Europe: although parts availability in NA is excellent, they are from Belgium. Probably Christie is good for parts in Europe, but just like with Barco if something is not in the continent you have to wait for it to come from home. The factory support team will also be in your time zone.
I would also look at the new small-screen projectors if your screen is small enough.
Using an IMB improves 3D color rendition (4:4:4 instead of 4:2:2) and allows HFR projection. The cost is not much different from a dual SDI server system. They also have a HDMI port (Doremi at least, I haven't seen any others yet). The new "mini" projectors all use an IMB type interconnect and will apparently do HFR.
Any equipment dealer will have several things in mind when recommending brands and models. They will, as a rule, naturally always push what makes them the most money. Some are more intent on this than others, selling things like "super" speaker or signal cables. Some will just push something like NEC over Christie, because they get more profit. There are also opinions - certainly there are a lot of opinions expressed here. I have had bad experiences with certain brands and now I won't recommend them, although they are probably fine. If I sell something I'll have to service it, and I don't ever want to service certain things again.
I don't know of any problems with the CP750. I've had a few bad ones but they get replaced immediately under warranty. All the other "digital" cinema processors are pretty much the same quality in my opinion.
Amps are, within limits, amps - assuming they are professional quality (most home amps have wildly optimistic power ratings). You want a certain power rating to match your speakers but that's about it. Cheap ones generally won't last as long as the name brand ones.
As far as using it for colour grading - without a very expensive colour calibration system no serious filmmaker will be interested. Lab "timing" projectors get calibrated almost daily, using instruments that cost many thousand dollars. If someone just wants to test a DCP to see if it will play, you're fine.
Same with sound quality tests. Unless you have a sound system able to take extreme abuse, I wouldn't let any sound editor near it. These guys are apparently all partially deaf, they run the sound at a painful level. Fine in a small mixing theatre with a system designed for it or a properly provisioned and tuned modern cinema (and that is rare!) but, from what you describe, a recipe for blown speakers and amps at your cinema.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 11-27-2012, 06:37 PM:
 
Carsten,Olivier, Dave,

Yes, life is more expensive because everything in Switzerland is just more..'Swiss'. The air, the language, the Rosti, the fondu, the Alps..even are pesticides are more...Neutral, and not to be worried about. In Switzerland Heidi is alive and expensive, grandpa is kindly and runs the bank, and Peter is... well...losing his shirt to Deutschbank on subprimes : )
-----------

The cinema with the failure was a CP2000...So Christie France didn't have the card anymore - and we had to go through Christie Canada...

As this cinema was using the CP2210 (until this morning when the media block failed : () as their replacement proj for a festival while waiting for the card, it was a great way for me to see what we are going to get at the other cinema...Now we're back to a panasonic until the healing ceremony, complete with very expensive yodeling, classic alp horns, and traditional bearded men wrestling in their underwear while the women bring the cows down from the alpine pastures...Amazing how folklore can raise the prices of a projector...
-----------
The Oppo-93 in direct on the HDMI to the Christie DVI looks(ed) great, but we are maxed at 10-bit (12-bit fails) - which looks better than the 8 bit, but not by much, since, even in Switzerland, a DVI is 8 bit maxed.

However, if we go through the scaler, it looks worse : (..
The Oppo really does a great job of scaling its data...
and cost 1/7th the scaler price..
---------

We also found that our Black Magic card looked better on single sdi than the scaler which is 1/4 the scaler price...

(Did I tell you the scaler speaks Schweizer-deutsch and Romansch, makes nescafé, and step dances...ohh, but it scales...
neutrally..)
------------
Once we set up and used dual sdi from the BlackMagic, the nuances in the blacks and whites really moved from video to cinema levels (still not DCP, nor 35mm : )

And after we finally had the colormetry done correctly on the CP2000, it really showed an enormous difference between the single DVI connections and dual SDI.

I should be clear - people are not color correcting in these cinemas - but they are testing their films on a large screen to see if they are moving in the right direction...

What I found is that many of the people who do tests at this cinema work on 8bit screens, do their work in 422, and are not colorediting or correcting for DCP and the cinema. Just showing them the work in solid clear 10-bit 444 RGB is a step in the right direction to help them color correct their film for DCP. Some of them realised that they had to limit details, because shooting on a doc might mean you might have a lot of weaknesses in focus and exposure that you would rather hide than reveal....

For others, it was a lovely surprise to see how good it could look, and what information they could recover (in the burnt out whites, or deep blacks, for exampe).

For people wanting to show the film to distributors/producers to get money to make their DCP/finish color correction, etc, testing this beforehand and making a conscious choice is quite important.

The client base at this cinema are people testing their films, local filmmakers, mixers, etc..

These will, hopefully, be many of the same people whose films we will program at the re-newed non-profit cinema. The goal is to show independent productions, with an emphasis on local work. And thus, a crowd that will have their mix in their ears, and their images from their edits in their eyes...
(Plus, they know where I live... dangerous, these cinephiles in small cities...)
--------------
Dave,

Unfortunately, we have already ordered our server, which is the Doremi DCP 2k4 6 tb which will cost us around 16,000 chf. (I think it plays alphorn too)...

If I understand correctly, the DCP 2k4 will do 2k 444 12-bit in 2d at HFR...We have discussed 3d, but as it seems to be such a huge investment, for such an infrequent option, and one which is not really in our profile (except for films like PINA) we thought we should wait...
However, there are young directors looking for cinemas to test their short films in 3d...

But unless we really decide to regularly show 3d, is the IMB worth it? (wouldn't we also have to buy the attachments for the projector and lenses...which just becomes so much more expensive...and our viewers don't want to pay this difference...

------------

Thanks for the sound input - there are several cinemas using the
JSD-80 - one of them being the test cinema with the Christie problems. The mixers I know find these cinemas 'ok' but not quite right... It could be how they were set up - but the same guy who tested these, did the tests for a cinema that mixers love for the sound...and it has a cp 650 with a DA20...
These guys all have loooong roots in 35mm, so perhaps it just sounds familiar?

Olivier, I had researched the DA20, and thought it looked good, but I know no cinema using it in Geneva, so have never heard it.
It has few, but strong reviews here - I'm assuming you use it?

Dave, you are right about sound mixers...But as long as the director is there, the sound is lower : ) and the old 35mm guys are a bit quieter than the young techno crowd
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-27-2012, 07:53 PM:
 
If money is limited, I guess you did the best you can. 16.000CHF is a bit too much for a plain vanilla 2k4 today, but then it comes with 6TB...

3D might come cheaper one day, at least for test audiences. An infrared emitter, a few glasses...we'll see.

The AP20 is the more futureproof processor. But speakers are more important. I'm wondering how sound mixers judge a sound-system by the processor. Speakers and room is clearly the dominant factor.

What's your screen dimension? Why didn't you opt for the new Sony 4k machine? Deadline?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 11-27-2012, 10:21 PM:
 
The USL JSD-80 has already been mentioned in this thread. A couple digital-only processors to look at are the USL JSD-100 and USL JSD-60 (shipping in the next month or so). Both offer a lot of flexibility and can include internal crossovers for the screen channels.

Harold Hallikainen
USL Design Team
JSD-80, JSD-100, JSD-60 (and more other non-sound stuff)
 

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Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 11-27-2012, 11:02 PM:
 
If the cost of 3D glasses is not a problem as it is only for testing purposes, there are active glasses solutions that are in the (small) thousands of dollars.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 11-28-2012, 04:26 AM:
 
--Carsten-

Our screen is 5 meters by 4, I think. we thought that 4k was an overreach, though I did argue the near future pressure....

We didn't even look at the Sony..pricing?

We started negotiations in March, and our deadline is the increasing cost of French language 35 mm, and even Bray and DCP -
they'll ask for a guarantee of 300-600 euros on second run or 'classics' : (
So if we can save on shipping costs with DCP and Bray, that can give us greater flexibility...

We only started to received grant money guarantees in June, July, August, with private advances finally secured in November.
Our team has been killing themselves over the funding, and programming -

Unfortunately the technical side has been under-reviewed,
and we've tried to base purchases on what we have seen and worked with - so it was between Barco's and Christies (have seen no NEC in any Geneva cinemas, just in conference rooms).
I've been voted down on all 3d consideration.
------- speakers - any comments? ------
The speakers we have been offered, used (is this a good idea)
PSI 38-3 (3 voix) for Front Left/right/center
6 KCS Sr10 for surround
and an unnamed sub...(this worries me - I want to hear it first)

-----------
an aside on some poor choices by installers and large conference halls here in Rosti land-
Unfortunately for Christie, their new conference projecteurs (6,000 lumens) have been put into spaces that have 10 meter screens that could have used the 2220 at least - 21 meter ditsance. We worked a festival where this was used, and all the directors felt their films were dim (obviously) - since we make films ourselves, we felt terrible - we've insisted on minimum 10,000 k projectors for next year's festival...
----------
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-28-2012, 05:19 AM:
 
I doubt a dual SDI system can do 2D HFR in 4:4:4.
I'm from the film world and my video knowledge is limited.
My understanding is that "digital cinema" 24fps 3D is essentially 48fps with the eye images alternating, and that dual SDI bandwidth is unable to carry this at 4:4:4 so dual SDI 3D is dropped to 4:2:2 while the IMB, with greater bandwidth, does 3D at 4:4:4.
Because if that, since SDI can't carry 24fps 3d at 4:4:4 I don't understand how it can carry 48fps HFR 2D at 4:4:4.
From looking at the new Barco IMB HFR base clone files I get the impression that an IMB system can do 4:4:4 3D at 60fps (120fps effectively) since they have 3D files labeled for that (as frame rate increases the 3D system goes from triple flash at 24fps to double flash at 48fps to (I guess) single flash at 60fps - thus different 3D control files are required for the different frame rates and Barco includes 24fps, 48fps, and 60fps 3D files).

You cinema sounds very interesting! Do you want to keep 35mm for showing archival material, or will you need it for future production work?
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-28-2012, 05:54 AM:
 
The problem with 4:4:4 3D on HDSDI is the lack of bandwidth. In 2D, HDSDI-A is running at 4:2:2 and HDSDI-B is running at 0:2:2 to make 4:4:4...when each cable is only carrying one eye...you CAN'T put the extra color information on 1.5GHz HDSDI (you could on 3G SDI). But for 48fps, you can ramp both of them up to 48fps in dual-link mode and your 3D example proves the point...each cable IS going up to 48fps already.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-28-2012, 06:47 AM:
 

quote: Mark Pasquesi

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We didn't even look at the Sony..pricing?

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quote: Dave Macaulay

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Some Black Magic video cards have 3G SDI but I don't think cinema projectors do.

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quote:

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DSP100

JPEG 2000 2D: 24, 48
JPEG 2000 3D: 24
MPEG2: 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30

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If you look back you'll see 48fps capability has always been there for 2D on any of the major release versions.
 

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Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 11-29-2012, 08:50 PM:
 
I've never actually seen the Fostex AP series of amps, but Fostex professional oriented kit is generally OK, so if money is tight, I'd hang on to these. Most movie houses seem to prefer QSC amps, and these Foxtex amps will probably be in the same ball park build wise.

Crown amps (or most of them, anyway!) are a step up from the QSCs, however, the increased financial investment wont get you any increased returns.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 11-30-2012, 06:47 AM:
 
David,

Thanks for the input on the Fostex.

As for Crown versus QSC, on the forum most people seem to think QSC is more reliable, and durable. Do a QSC and Crown search..

We are having sound troubles, so we have thought about switching these. Here's the link on the forum to where I jumped in about amps, sound processors, and speakers - the discussion previous to me was quite interesting: http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/f1/t011336/p4.html
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-02-2012, 12:25 PM:
 
Back to the 3d questions - is a scaler necessary/useful?

Would the Christie SKA -3d limit some of the need for 3d attachments for the Christie 2210? Has anyone seen/used one yet?

http://www.christiedigital.com/en-us/cinema/cinema-products/digital-cinema-alternative-content/pages/christie-ska-3d.aspx

They are slowly puting up more info on the web - their brochure is litlle to go on...

It's dual DVI 16 bit out seems great, even for HFR 2d alternative content - it handles hdmi in, giving Bray 36 bit full on passage.

But for DCP content, as discussed, I'm assuming the IMB would still be needed to meet the 500 mbs need..
For independent content, a 600 mbs RAID setup should do, no?
or 10-bit rgb video cards - no sdi in, however.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-02-2012, 01:00 PM:
 
If you want good sound, stay away from KCS. They are quite popular in Europe, but Windows 95 was also very popular!
Remember that sound is not only speakers, you need a decent acoustic as well.

Processors: I can't find anything wrong in the 750. It's just not very versatile: no crossover available and 31 bands graphic EQ only. The QSC DCP looks like a nice product - and I understand that a 750 + a QSC DCM as a crossover/Monitor is more expensive than a DCP100 - which has all you need. But then you need a decent installer capable of using all the features the DCP delivers: if you end up with a DCP and the installer then opens the 31-bands EQ window and ignores all the rest, then you can stick with a 750!
Definitely use the 750 - or whatever you end up buying - as your main processor. Feed the old analogue processor into it, flatten all the EQ in the old processor and leave the fader at 7.0 all the time.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-02-2012, 01:32 PM:
 
Hey Marco,

thanks for the input. Why don't you like the KCS's? Which speakers would you recommend...

By the way, there is a loooong discussion on speakers here, where my sound questions have been wrapped in..

also long dicussions of how to test/set up rooms..Meyers linear, x-curve, etc..
http://www.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011336;p=5#000067

Here's a quote from Steve Guttag in Maryland:

"The problem with that statement is that anyone that does measurements knows that a measurement only measures what it is measuring, not everything. In the case of an RTA, you are only "seeing" the volume of each frequency. This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of what constitutes the sound we hear. Part of the X-curve does try to take into account reverberation (the roll off) but it works (by those that believe it does) because many of the parameters of a theatre are reasonably well known. When the X-curve falls apart is when the room is made poorly such that the x-curve does not reasonably apply. If the RTA was the final word in sound...all speakers that meet the curve should sound identical...and most everyone knows that isn't true. There are many other parameters to perceived audio. THX took this a bit further by ensuring that the room was better made so that RT-60 was in the proper range, the NC level was in the proper range and that the equipment was inherently good. That will have the X-curve work even better. "

But no one has yet said how they themselves start with the x-curve in a typical long box with low ceilings and limited acoustics, and finish with great sound - yet : )
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-02-2012, 02:54 PM:
 
Steve is - as always - right. The RTA just sees the amplitude, not the time. It's like driving blind. If the road is straight, you reach the goal. Otherwise you fall down the cliff. The road is the acoustic here

Back IT, someone said KCS are as good as others, just not so powerful. I disagree. They are not as powerful AND they don't sound as good. I have plenty of experience with KCS and the difference in sound quality compared with another brand is as clear as sky.
HF are limited and dull, they sound like "tupperware" (as Steve says for some EV!) and they break easily. Once, I checked a 18" speaker specifications for a friend. The price list, the datasheet and the label on the speaker itself were showing three different rated wattage!!
Subwoofers are noisy and not deep at all. I've see medium sized rooms with 2 dual 18" subs, properly powered and - hopefully I did a good job - properly EQ'd. They simply did not go down as you would expect from a cinema subwoofer (yes, filters in the DCAs were disengaged, only the 20Hz left in the DCM). In similar rooms a couple of Martin Audio 1A would greately outperform the KCS system (BTW: I'm not saying that 2x18" are a proper desing for a medium sized room!)
I am not too familiar with QSC for the time being. Had a chance to set up a couple of small systems, the first impression was positive, with a special mention for the little subwoofer - underrated for the room - which despite the low rated power was delivering a very undistorted and deep output.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-02-2012, 04:29 PM:
 
Marco,

sounds like they are quite weak. Which would you recommend?

Do you know PSI's? WE had an offer them as front replacements.
They are 3-way.
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-02-2012, 04:42 PM:
 
Speaking of the X-curve, SMPTE had a B-chain study group that did a bunch of measurements of dubbing stages and theaters. Measurements were done using pink noise and correlation techniques to generate an impulse response and frequency response. This work has now been rolled in to a SMPTE technology committee on Cinema Sound Systems. There has been a lot of heated discussion regarding the X-curve. I'm sure there will be more. From my understanding, SMPTE 202 rolls off the highs more in larger auditoriums to compensate for the effects of reverberation in larger auditoriums. Through the years, the reverb delays for certain sized auditoriums has not changed, but the amplitude of the reflected sound has dropped as auditoriums become "deader." Some of the discussion has said that the X-curve is just a pre-emphasis / de-emphasis curve, like that used for FM radio, magnetic tape, etc. Some have pointed out that you can listen to an orchestra in different sized auditoriums, and it always sounds natural without any special eq for each auditorium. Others have shown experimental results of what people expect to hear with various sized images. A larger image should have more bass and a higher level. You don't expect a lot of bass and a lot of sound out of a small TV (or iPhone). Others have pointed out that we have to adjust the sound due to an unnatural combination of what we see and hear. For example, there may be a large closeup of a person speaking. We expect it to sound like they are close to us, even though we are far away in the auditorium. Then, finally, there's the intelligibility of the dialog. Whether it sounds natural or not, the dialog has to be understandable.

So, we have a lot of things to consider. For now, 1/3 octave RTA and eq, pink noise, and the X-curve are it. That may change.

Those interested in the details may want to join the SMPTE Cinema Sound Systems group.

Harold
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-02-2012, 04:44 PM:
 
Personally JBL or Martin Audio. The reason I am not mentioning QSC is only because I haven't got enough experience with them, not because they are not good.
And I read on the other thread you are thinking on 1 surround speaker for each of the back surround sides. If you're going in 7.1 please don't! You can't drive a single channel with one speaker in a 14m long room! If you have such a narrow room, then possibly 7.1 would not be recommended, stick with 5.1 instead. If you have space, you definitely need more than one speaker for each back side.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-10-2012, 09:07 PM:
 
Harold,

Good points on the SMPTE..
I work in another cinema where the SMPTE was just done -
and the USL JSD 80 bugs and loses it : (
Fortunately, we have the file on a small portable...

So, since the SMPTE work, the sound distribution is much better..
But, we have a dip noticed between 2k-12,000k by 3 mixers so far... and if we look at the curve - yes, these are reduced...
as aquick test, I punched it up a bit for on eexcellent mixer who noticed this (just to 0), and he found it better...

So is SMPTE just a good start - and how should one improve this?
(our thought - use the feedback from a large number of mixers, and change the concensus areas - wait, maybe that's the SMPTE curve ..

any recommendations for us on the SMPTE?
Final installation Thursday and Friday....
Color test and regulations of the Christie 2210 on Friday,
with the SMPTE sound tests and regulation as well....

-------
Marco,

we decided to stick with the speakers we have for now...
we ran tests to find the weak links...Hissing ...the processor...
The occasional pop and splat - a dying track on the mixer....
so we are putting th money into a USL JSD-80, and the 3 used QSC's....
holding onto our Fstex in case we go for 7.1 (if we get the funding)...

Our curent speakers, tested without the bad mixer line,
seemed acceptable to our visiting mixers...all frequencies present...
we'll really hear them after the new material is in...
------ they are ------
L/R - PSI Module 3012 IV 300 Watt, 8 ohm
C - Sentry AVB Horn loaded system 8 ohm (electro voice inc buchanan michigan),
and oversized old schools for the surround...
---------
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-10-2012, 11:16 PM:
 
The SMPTE X-Curve ATTEMPTS to make the sound in the auditorium as close as possible to the sound on the dubbing stage. There are several different X-curves based on the size of the auditorium. Since the dubbing stage is a "small auditorium," the original movie should be mixed with the small auditorium X-curve. Then, when you play it back in a big auditorium, using the big-auditorum X-curve, it SHOULD sound similar. That's the goal, anyway!

The USL JSD-100 and JSD-60 let you load limit curves for the RTA. It comes with curve files for all the auditorium sizes defined in SMPTE 202. Since the curve files are text, you can create your own curve. The loaded curve is used in auto-equalization.

On adjusting until it sounds right, I think we have too much variation in interpretation of what sounds "right." Some people may prefer more highs than others. I think the goal is to make it sound the way the movie producer wants it to sound which, supposedly, is how it sounded on the dubbing stage.

This whole area is being revisited by the SMPTE Cinema Sound Sysems technical committee, which just held its first meeting. Those who want to know where we're headed or want to head us in the right direction may want to join the group.

Harold
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-13-2012, 11:58 AM:
 
Harold,

The mixing 'stage' for many lower budget mixers is only their studio. That said, we've now had two groups of mixers from two different studios with 2 different types of speakers, both with pro-tools, notice the 1.5-12,000 drop. It's also visible on the USL interface.
That said, the SMPTE standard was tested and put in place. It is a great base. The sound distribution in 5,1 seems to be perfect.
No one notices a difference with their mix and our presentation.
It's just the slight loss in the treble range that is noticeable, especially with certain voices, or sound designs.

Once we realized that the JSD-100 (at that cinema) had a faulty memory, we have just had to manually open the file (we could script it) every time we launch the JSD.

However, I have been unable to stop the 5,1 redistribution when we use the coaxial in. This has been ok for certain films where the matrix handles the AC3 from the Bray correctly, but I have been unable to limit it to a simple LR stereo.

Could this mean we did not correctly set up our coaxial in on the JSD for a L/R stereo only project?

Do we need to do a seperate SMPTE test for the stereo only?
Or is this a coaxial issue?

When I use the analog ins from our Black Magic video/sound card, there is no problem - we can distribute the sound as 2.0, 5,1, etc, using the computer matrixes. The JSD does not force a 5,1.

Thanks,

Mark
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-13-2012, 08:28 PM:
 
There was a very lively SMPTE Cinema Sound Systems discussion today where a fair number of people disagreed with my idea that our goal was to sound the same in the auditorium as on the mixing stage. But, there seems to be agreement that we should reproduce the director's intent as closely as possible. I've been suggesting binaural recordings to A/B test various environments with various measured equalizations. Some have said the best way to make auditoriums sound better is to turn off equalization. We'll see where (and if) it all settles down.

On the JSD-100, it should remember settings through power cycle If it does not, we may want to swap it out.

On the coax input, there are a couple ways of going. There's a command you can send to change the decode method on the fly (this would be with the latest firmware, check http://www.uslinc.com ). You can also configure one of the option buttons to use any input with any decode setting. This would probably be the easiest. I have not looked at the original code in a while, so I don't remember its capabilities that well. But the latest firmware and GUI should do well for you.

Thanks!

Harold
USL Engineering
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 12-17-2012, 02:51 PM:
 
Harold,

thanks for your reply. Might we have the same presets on the JSD-80?
It's a different cinema, but the issue this time - 2.0 stereo forced to mono, center speaker only..
The test dvd - Car wash...

The mono films we tested all passed perfectly...
Made in USA (Godard), Woman of the Year...

The other issue was, despite an afternoon calibration with the mic, followed by the SMPTE,
the surrounds were quite weak... on all films...
DCP not as bad, but on the coaxial dvd's and brays.. much weaker...

I'll check the firmware, but it is supposed to be a new model, so I'm assuming the firmware on the JSD-80 has been updated..

thanks,

Mark
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 12-17-2012, 09:20 PM:
 
I haven't done much on the JSD-80 recently, so I'm going to pass this on to those who work on it daily.

Thanks!

Harold
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-17-2012, 09:35 PM:
 
Always remember to test with known good content in the same format you have heard it in dozens (or preferably, hundreds) of times.

Various movies/dvds/etc will be mastered a bit differently and may not sound quite right without a little re-tweeking of the levels and sometimes EQ...but that doesn't mean the processor isn't doing its job properly.
 

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Posted by Mark Pasquesi (Member # 7208) on 01-11-2013, 04:15 PM:
 
Brad, Harold

thanks, and good point. That's why I ask mixers to listen to their films in the cinema. And why I ask to listen to the film in their studio : )

We have had good feedback from one group on the room with the jsd-80. They really liked the fidelity to the 'air' - 2,000-16,000. Our only problem is a slight exaggeration in the 1,000-2,000 range, leaving vocal sibilance slightly aggressive...
the surrounds are still off, but it's also the placement/angle..
will be improving that asap...
Do you have any guidelines for stereo surround placement, especially when we have all the Sl/SR respectively amplified by one channel each...the question of timing for the rear seats/front speakers, as opposed to front seats/front speakers, and mid-seats/front speakers....
Our room opens up to the screen, so we have height to play with in the delay.... but it creates a volume problem, as these speakers are too high to have an equal volume for the rear speakers....
I think we need to revisit placement strategies...
 

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