Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Setting Light Output on Barco Series 2 projectors

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Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-02-2012, 05:19 PM:

Greetings,

I'm Having some problems with my barco projectors. The installers did not set the light output correctly so all of my lamps are running at maximum power, even though they all have very few hours on them. Since I know xenon bulbs put out their rated light with less power when new, and then need turned up over time to maintain that light, im burning up my bulbs. Im already having striking problems, even on the smaller screens with only 20% of the lamp life used up.

I've been dinking around with the barco software looking for settings. I found the light output, and most of the lamps are putting out 14-16 fl, and from what I know the Digital cinema Standard is 12 fl.

If I change it to CLO mode in the software, all of them are set at 16, with the exception of my 2 larger screens that are set at 255 for some reason.

Would it be as simple as changing the target light output to 12fl on the software then saving the file? Or would I need to get a light meter and verify whats on screen and calibrate some other things?

Ive noticed they are too bright since the beginning, im getting washed out blacks which is the most noticeable. A couple weeks after the install was done I started having problems with various things, that led me to believe it was a rushed half baked job. Then I started having striking problems, and looked into it and noticed the lamps at maximum power. The installers didn't even get some of the maskings set up right so I had keystoning to take care of.

I appreciate any help.

Thanks

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-02-2012, 05:49 PM:

There are a few steps to this:

You need to create a lcs file for each format. This is a reference light level reading, made with a calibrated light meter.
Note that the projectors come from the factory with a non-calibrated lcs file. This is so you can adjust the lamp: with no lcs active, the brightness will read zero all the time... that makes using the lamp adjustment function quite impossible. This factory lcs setting is not your screen brightness, same with the ft-l reading in status or lamp output: there has to be a reference reading in an active lcs file for it be meaningful. The projector doesn't look at the screen, it has a light sensor in the light engine.

Once you have your measured and set lcs files you activate the correct lcs file in each format macro.

Then in "lamp mode" in each macro you select CLO mode and set your target Ft-L.

Assuming your lamp is within its adjustment range, the projector will adjust lamp power to keep the screen brightness at the set level.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-03-2012, 02:58 AM:

you shouldn't have stike problems at 20% of lamp's life. Running lamps at 100% is not hurting them, it's the opposite that is not good for them.

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-03-2012, 04:30 AM:

The brightness standard for the digital era remains at 14 fL, measured in the center of the screen. (For film it used to be 16 fL without film in the projector – the slight opacity of the film base would drop that to 14 fL.)

When setting up the CLO, it’s not uncommon to give it a little overhead and set the target at 16 fL instead of 14. Depending on your screen gain, viewing angles and the accuracy of the initial calibration, the brightness may actually be closer to 14 for most viewers. And the difference is not that huge anyway.

Are you sure your larger screens are actually set to 255 fL in CLO mode? Or are they possibly set up to use the ”Normal mode”, where a slider value of 255 simply means ”run the lamp at full power all the time”?

If all your lamps - even those set to CLO - are running at 100% power all the time already at 20% of warranty life, it would seem to me that you need bigger bulbs. But before jumping to conclusions, you should check if the calibration was done correctly. The Harkness Digital Screen Checker is a nice budget light meter.

As Marco said, though, your lamp strike problems are probably not related at all. Is your exhaust system powerful enough? How do your lamp temperatures look?

Also, are you running B or C series Barcos? Some B projectors have been known to have some trouble with the signal pulse generator (SPG), causing strike problems. There’s an easy service procedure which may or may not help – see the Barco InfoT 959, or PM me if you don’t have access to the Barco support site.

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-03-2012, 02:50 PM:

The installers Did have a light meter, and took measurements.

But not a single projector has a LCS file in any macros. With our screen size and throw in our smaller theaters, a 2000W bulb should be sufficent to light the screen, not even at full power. The movies are very bright at have washed out blacks like I said, and the whites are blinding. I just did some quick math to drop the bulb power by 20% in a couple theaters to see what it looked like. The movies look alot better and seem more film like.

Ill look into getting a light meter(have to talk to the boss man). If anyone has any knowledge(formula or whatever) on what bulbs should be used in my setup, here's my screen sizes and throws.

Largest
Throw :66 feet
Largest screen size: 19'x43'8"
DP2k-20C running a 4000W bulb, but I have a 3000W im putting in tonight

Second largest
Throw:57 feet
Largest screen size: 15.4'x35'6"
DP2K-20C 4000W bulb, will be replaced with 3000W when the current lamp reaches its end

Mid size
Throw:51 feet
Screen size at largest: 16'x28'3"
DP2K-12C 2000W bulb

Smallest
Throw:44 feet
Screen at largest:16'x28'3"
DP2k-12C 2000W bulb

And the larger screens and one smaller screen were set to 255 in CLO mode.

There may be a power problem also, that prevents the lamps from striking. I had a similar problem with the film equipment. Sometimes they would strike on the first go, EVERY TIME, other times it would take 5-6 times, even on a bulb with minimal hours that was run at the proper power.

I kinda got throw into this, I don't know the status of a service contract(as af as I know we don't have one) so Im trying my best to get these running properly.

Thanks
Paul

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-03-2012, 03:25 PM:

Two important factors when calculating optimal lamp size:
1) screen gain
2) are you also running 3D, and if so, which system?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-03-2012, 03:51 PM:

Wonder if you've got some 'suspect' lamps with those Barco projectors?

There have been a few issues recently, you should have had a letter.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-03-2012, 04:41 PM:

the wattages you suggest looks fine, assuming a 1.0 gain screen.
A colour meter would be recommended to set the LSC files and let the projector handle the light. In the meantime you may want to reduce the power on all flat formats, it sounds you have too much light in Flat at maximum power, which is very normal if your system has proper light levels in scope with some headroom left.

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-03-2012, 05:05 PM:

Screen gain is 1.0 I believe on all of them, except the largest screen and one of the medium sized screens. They have silver screens. Not sure on the gain with those. The silver screens were used with Technicolor 3D, and now we have RealD XL systems in both auditoriums.

I just got a light meter ordered so I should be able to properly get the levels here in the near future.

"Lamp Temperature" according to the barco software in the smaller theaters is around 40C, with the 2 larger screens just above 50C.

I havent been notified of any lamp problems. I got a mix and match of brands. Im having problems with both osram and ushio bulbs, both 4K and 2K.

Just had another one fail to strike, first time for this one.

Thanks
Paul

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-03-2012, 06:06 PM:

Something is fishy with the installation. The installer hopefully calibrated the color but obviously did not calibrate the brightness. I would check that there are relevant 3D and 2D MCGD files dated around the time of your installation: there will be a "nominal" MCGD file as well dated well before the install, part of the original projector base clone installed by Barco. If you don't have these MCGD files present and called in the macros, your colour has not been calibrated either.
It makes no sense to use CLO mode without LSC files, regardless of the number you set them to. You need LSC files to use CLO mode. It's pointless without them.
With top (or bottom, or top & bottom) masking the difference between flat and scope brightness is minimal and just one LSC file for 2D and one for 3D would do OK. With side masking you need flat and scope LSC files. For a 3D screen you definitely need 2D and 3D LSC files.
The projector macros in the projector base clone have LSC file entries, pointing to nonexistent files (to be created on installation) which brings up a yellow triangle when the macro is executed. There's a factory LSC file as well , "1.LSC" I think, which allows lamp alignment. As long as no other file is called, this should be active - but sometimes the projector forgets it (during firmware upgrades for example) which makes lamp alignment a challenge. If you look in installation/advanced/lamp output it should show the active LSC file at the bottom somewhere.
The setup you describe is not uncommon on projectors installed by techs who have not taken the Barco installation training course.

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-03-2012, 06:52 PM:

A couple of the projectors have the LCS files named 2D. But the rest of the are the default "1".

I went through a few macros, and they don't have an "activate LCS file" in the string of commands. I can add one, but there is not one present in the few I looked at. Im getting a light meter soon, so I should be able to get this solved. Im going to mess with a few tonight and add an LCS file that I edited earlier today to a couple screens and run some content and see how it looks.

Its all sorts of messed up. They may not have calibrated the color either. One of them appears to have an over saturation of red.

The barco tech school is on my list of things to do.

Whats the default setting of fL for the calibration files? Some of them are at 12, but others were upwards of 20. SO maybe they did edit them, but didn't make a new one. Regardless the macro isn't calling for one anyway.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-04-2012, 06:17 AM:

There's no way to tell what the 1.LCS file is set at. I suppose at some Barco test bay with a Barco test lamp on whatever they use for a screen, it was calibrated... or they just pulled a number out of their heads and saved it. All it's good for is aligning the lamp. I have had a few trouble calls where the operator couldn't align the lamp because the displayed output on the alignment screen was zero, they just had to save a random guess LCS number to get that function to work.
Colour setup is easy but you need a colour meter, the cheapest available is too expensive for a theatre to justify owning one.
Hopefully you can find a qualified service technician to maintain your projection systems. There are a few regular maintenance jobs that should really be done by trained techs with access to factory support.
Digital systems don't age like film projectors did: they don't generally just get noisier and shakier but keep an image of sorts on screen. Usually when there's a problem they simply refuse to work. Also, right now we're in a strange period - a lot of mandatory security "upgrades" have been issued for projector and server software (and hardware for some S1 projectors and some older servers) but the film distributors haven't done whatever KDM changes that will absolutely require them to be in place to allow playback. Sooner or later they will be required, and systems that have not been kept current will not play encrypted movies. If you don't have trained techs doing periodic maintenance you might get bitten by that.
It's possible to do the maintenance yourself but requires a hefty investment in training course fees and test equipment to do it right.

Posted by Jason Raftery (Member # 6291) on 12-05-2012, 08:33 AM:

Pete, can you elaborate on the 'suspect' lamps issue? I haven't seen an Info-T on them. Thank you!

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-05-2012, 07:16 PM:

Im not a "trained tech" by any means. But I think im fairly smart and a quick learner. I've been keeping up with the required updates for DCI compliance myself. If I had the proper equipment im sure I could easily solve my issues. This shouldn't be a problem because the installers should have done all this at the time of installation, so im trying to put the pieces together.

The closest tech is over 3 hours away from my location, so getting anyone to come out and work on this problem overnight so I have no down time is probably out of the question.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-05-2012, 07:42 PM:

This most certainly only takes a few minutes to get right. But that doesn't actually increase your chances for a techie stopping by. ;-)
Normally I'd say this is a warranty call.

Wait for the light meter, and then adjust yourself. I assume you have the necessary manuals? The Communicator Guide has a section on light sensor calibration and CLO.

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-05-2012, 10:50 PM:

Sounds like you have a good plan going. I don't say it's impossible for someone to take excellent care of these things. However, I've had to work on some that had been "maintained" by owners with no idea what was required, they finally called us in only when the system shut down or looked so bad it couldn't be ignored any longer.
There's no real magic in the training but it imposes a minimum standard on installers and techs - we should do things properly because we were shown how to.
The only thing that's a real problem for an owner or operator who is talented and takes the time to read manuals etc. to do is color calibration - the least expensive color meter is damned expensive and nobody I've asked rents them. The color calibration procedure is relatively simple but - as far as I know - is not in any manual. I've come across techs who use a procedure that makes sense (in a way) but is wrong, I see strange color on screen but using their method it is exactly 314/351 on the color meter at some point in the proceedings. There are also other ways, different from how I learned, to do it that work perfectly.
My opinion on lamp life is that adequate cooling is key. I take the specified exhaust flow as a minimum and, without being ridiculous, more is better. Some lamps did start to dislike striking at about 70% of warranty life about 2 years ago but I haven't seen many since then. I don't like Barco's staing routine, I think a few more tries over a couple of seconds would be better than five zaps in half a second then giving up if it hasn't struck. They're pretty definite that they won't be changing it though.

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 12-06-2012, 01:50 AM:

Im might make another cue to put on the playlists that adds another lamp strike command. I usually run 20 seconds of black before the show, and during that time the lamp powers on and the dowser opens, and all the other automation commands go to work.

9/10 times they manually strike on the first press of the button if the initial strike fails, maybe this will cut down on the "its broken" phone calls I get.

I think we have proper cooling for these machines, atleast the smaller ones, the exhaust duct connected directly to the projector doesn't get very warm at all. On the other had the two screens with the larger lamps get pretty toasty. But after I cut that one screen down to a 3000W bulb its about the same as the smaller theaters. Its odd considering that the other screen with a 4k bulb, that has more hours on it than the other, is still striking perfectly.

Im awaiting the light meter. I've read all the manuals for my projectors and servers so I have a pretty good idea of whats going on, and the barco software being so stupid easy also helps.

I appreciate all the advice
Thanks

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-06-2012, 08:01 AM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
The color calibration procedure is relatively simple but - as far as I know - is not in any manual.

Color calibration for Barco is described beginning on page 144 of the Communicator Touch Panel manual. Even if you don't have touch panels on your projectors, you could get the manual online, and the procedure should be pretty much the same using the Communicator software on your laptop.

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 12-06-2012, 03:11 PM:

Just a sidenote: There is actually a separate manual for the PC version of the Communicator software, and it has the color calibration instructions too (starting on page 138). But for some reason, the PC version of the manual is missing the short bit on selecting the target TCGD file. Looks like a simple oversight to me. Otherwise the CC instructions seemed identical to me at a glance.

Pete: I would also be interested in the ”suspect” lamps…

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-06-2012, 05:40 PM:

deleted

Posted by Paul Maxon (Member # 6211) on 01-30-2013, 03:40 PM:

Ok Im back with some updates.

I got the light output set correctly, so the projectors are adjusting themselves as the lamp ages. Every projector but one has a new lamp. But I still have striking problems on a few projectors, it doesn't happen often, maybe 1 in 10-15 shows.

Both the cathode and anode wires are tightened to the proper specification, and the lamphouse is seated fully. I think I may have a power supply issue. The main offender, strikes the bulb 3-5 times and gives up. But once it decides to work, the lamp lights and has no flickering. So I think the power supply is failing to turn on some of the time.

I know these projectors are suppose to be somewhat "modular", is the power supply something that can be removed and reseated for a better connection, or is it hard wired like the old rectifiers in the 35mm stuff?

These projectors had a nice trip from overseas, so maybe something cam loose on their extensive journey.

Thanks
Paul

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-30-2013, 04:49 PM:

Maybe I missed something. Isn't the light standard still 16FL for digital??

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 01-30-2013, 04:51 PM:

14±3 foot-lamberts in the centre of the screen. See DCI 8.3.4.7.

Remember that the 35 mm standard is 16 fL without film in the gate – that becomes about 14 fL when projected through clear film base (which equals the peak white of an actual 35 mm print).

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 01-30-2013, 05:31 PM:

Thanks Antti. I don't know where I heard my info from.