Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Oppo Responds To On-Screen Display Question

This is topic Oppo Responds To On-Screen Display Question in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001323

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-21-2012, 02:12 PM:

I know we discussed this in another thread somewhere but a search didn't find it. We were asking what the wish list was for BluRay players that are used in a professional theatre setting when no DLP is available for a classic title.

I think everyone to a person wanted to be able to totally disable any and all on-screen displays, along with the player never going out of pause. Seems the oppo players were highly regarded except for the OSD which you cannot disable on them.

I saw they came out with a new top of the line model, so I wondered if they finally included a way to disable the on-screen gack. I wrote to the company and asked that question and their answer was the same they gave over a year ago:

Frank,

Unfortunately at this time none of our players support the ability to set a truly silent OSD. This ability has been requested multiple times through the years but not something that we have invested nay time into developing. We have not ruled out the possibility as we can always create a firmware which can only be used by custom installers or exhibitors, but we do not have any immediate plans to support this.

Best Regards,

Customer Service
OPPO Digital, Inc.
2629B Terminal Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94043
Service@oppodigital.com

Perhaps a vigorous write-in campaign will convince them of their foolishness. Last year they said the reason they insist on leaving the OSD is because they are afraid stupid consumers will think there is something wrong with the player if they press a button and don't see indication feedback. There certainly is a simple solution to the "home" market quandry -- add the feature, add 300 bucks to the price and call it the "Pro" model and sell it to us. Or, add the OSD Disable feature, but then once the power is turned off and back on, it automatically reverts to the OSD ON default. This is not brain surgury.

I told them that their player seem highly regarded by many professionals at the Film-Tech blog (this is a blog, isn't it?)and if they were to add this feature, they would probably get LOTS of theatres scrabbling to buy them and their marketing team would all get bonuses as the Pro versions fly off the shelves.

Evidently he was not convinced.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-21-2012, 02:32 PM:

FYI:
This is a message board. It is not a blog; if this were a blog, Brad would be the only person able to make new topics and people like you and me would only be able to add comments to these existing topics/articles.

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 12-21-2012, 02:36 PM:

Funny, I sent them the same question a few days ago as we already own 2 BDP-103's for our various theater properties. In my particular situation, I want it to have the ability to go through a playlist on a memory stick without ever showing the "Oppo Blu-ray" background or the "loading" icon in the corner. I got the same exact email response you did. I replied that as we have more properties opening, I'd be more likely to stick with Oppo down the road if they add this feature via a firmware update.

Everyone, feel free to respond to this thread if this is something you'd also like to see. Someone could send them a link and they could see the industry demand for themselves.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-21-2012, 03:19 PM:

That's good to know, Chris. I disliked the word blog anyway...sounds like something you find living out in the swamp. Or a blockage disease of some kind having to do specifically with the bowels.

Posted by Shawn Arndt (Member # 7159) on 12-21-2012, 03:40 PM:

What about finding a custom way to block this in the booth from appearing on the screen until one can see the video start? I think it's cheap playing stuff on bluray in a movie theater when you could do that at home but I do understand the need for having a "back up" if the digital is on the fritz....it's a tough corner to be in.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-21-2012, 03:49 PM:

We're using the Oppo blu-ray player for matinees this year.

I have noticed that the little onscreen bug from the Oppo disappears after about two seconds. And, there is usually around two seconds of "black" at the beginning of most movies anyway. So I have a very low-tech solution --- I have a cardboard "door" on the port window. When it's time to start a Blu-Ray, I cue it up in advance, then at showtime I press Play, then the instant the bug disappears, flip open the door. It's a pain in the butt, but hey, the little kiddies deserve good showmanship too, right?

That said, it's very disappointing that they don't give this feature when their machinery is supposedly "professional" in nature and even the cheap brands have it.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 12-21-2012, 03:52 PM:

We have a Sony BDP-S380 blu-ray player in our setup.

Its OSD can be completely disabled, and it has stayed on pause (on black) for over 4 hours before now with no issues. I have a newer sony player at home, and again the OSD can be disabled and it stays on pause forever.

Perhaps Oppo isnt the way to go......as nice as they are

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 12-21-2012, 04:44 PM:

Mike,

That approach works for running a single feature, however we're also using it for going through a list of files from a thumb drive, to give them a cool little "pre-show" before we run a classic film. It flashes the "Oppo Blu-ray" background and "loading" icon between every file. I suppose one could merge all the files, but when dealing with different formats and resolutions, it's just a time suck that could be used for doing something more productive, not to mention it's functionality that should be there - it's functionality a $80 media player from Western Digital has.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 12-21-2012, 05:41 PM:

Without meaning to sound like a smart-ass, why aren't you using the $80 player from Western Digital instead of the Oppo if it has the features that you need?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-21-2012, 06:35 PM:

It's OK Frank -- we need a good smart-ass around here; we can't expect Joe R. to be on-call 24/7. Besides, it's always better than being a dumb-ass.

And Gavin, thanks for the heads up on the Sony. Definately will be looking in to that unit. You know, I don't ask much from a player and those two issues are really not world shattering expectations from a product that they themselves call "pro." Besides, their response sounded a little to condescending to me, so come to think of it, they can go oppo themselves.

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 12-21-2012, 07:30 PM:

The ONLY problems Iv had with the Sony is our newer model can not disable the sleep timer or the opening SONY screen. OTher than that its perfect. I still use one of the original SONY Blu-ray players. Works just the same except it has fill 5.1 out and will run every video output on ALL resolutions. Just takes a little longer to load.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-21-2012, 08:48 PM:

The newer Sonys also cannot output to both composite SD and HDMI HD at the same time. This may or may not be a problem, but it is worth noting (this is not a problem with the Oppo). Also, they are slower to load than the Oppo. If it weren't for that damn OSD issue, the Oppo would clearly be the player to buy.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-21-2012, 09:10 PM:

Is there ANY player that can output from the HDMI and regular SD video on the market anymore?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-21-2012, 10:05 PM:

quote: Mark Strube
I got the same exact email response you did.

If a company takes the time to write a form letter it must mean that they've been asked this question enough times to warrant the writing of a form letter. A lot of people must be asking the same question.

So, then, a way to combat that would be for a lot more people to write them letters.

Just to make it interesting, attach a copy of their form letter reply to your question. Of course, they'll try to ignore it but they won't be able to ignore 100 people sending them the same thing.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-22-2012, 02:59 AM:

Shawn, it's not a matter of a backup for anything; it's a matter of the studios not releasing either film prints or DCPs of their classic libraries. For art theatres this is a huge problem and it just keeps getting bigger. We cope with it the best way we can. Hell, sometimes there isn't even a BRay to play...we have play DVDs. Believe me, it's not by choice.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 12-22-2012, 04:20 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
Shawn, it's not a matter of a backup for anything; it's a matter of the studios not releasing either film prints or DCPs of their classic libraries. For art theatres this is a huge problem and it just keeps getting bigger. We cope with it the best way we can. Hell, sometimes there isn't even a BRay to play...we have play DVDs. Believe me, it's not by choice

we hae the same problem sometimes, certan art-house films are ONLY released on disc, and most of the time thats DVD. Its crappy, and I hate running them from a quality an embarssment standpoint, but try convicing the "artist" or dstributor to at least switch to Blu-Ray (or DCP) an they just dont get it.....

And then, there are the times im doing some sorta one-off screening and whatever they want me to play is provided on a USB stick, with a video fle encded in those godawful proprietary Mac (apple) codecs that wont play on regular, industry standad hardware. I tell them it should be an "industry standard" avi, mpeg (ec etc) but no, for some reason thas not "cool" on a Mac.

/rant

Posted by Wolfgang Woehl (Member # 6901) on 12-22-2012, 11:11 AM:

This summer we'd let ourselves get suckered into buying an Oppo BDP-93. What were we thinking.

Its default firmware had outrageous audio sync issues. Depending on HDMI output ports usage (the BDP-93 has 2 outs) the measured latencies changed, too [Smile]

Its "default" audio latency was a bloodcurling 100 ms (2 1/2 frames).

Fun thing to do with an Oppo BDP-93: HDMI 1 to projector, HDMI 2 to monitor. Projector is on, monitor is on > playback > Monitor off. Guess what happens. If you're looking for a tell for bad engineering, that's it. "High-end" goes out the window right there. The list goes on. But what's the point really?

As for the OSD issue: We got the same answers as Frank and others. They're not interested. It doesn't help that they don't get it in the first place.

In my mind Oppo has exactly 1 thing going for them: Some marketing genius who probably earned himself a life-long free hotel suite in Shanghai, just around headquarters, That dude managed to sucker a lot of industry figures. Well, enjoy the smog.

I'd like to see a player with fully configurable OSD (which out, verbosity levels), subtitle positioning, user-configurable idle screen and true monitor out. Not that I'm holding my breath.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 12-22-2012, 12:07 PM:

We use a Sony BDP-S390. It was about $100. We split the HDMI signal out to a monitor in the booth. We can use the dowser on the projector to control what the audience sees on screen.

When I'm working, no one knows it's a Blu-Ray.

It's called "Presentation". No one really knows what that means anymore.

Posted by Shawn Arndt (Member # 7159) on 12-22-2012, 01:32 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Shawn, it's not a matter of a backup for anything; it's a matter of the studios not releasing either film prints or DCPs of their classic libraries. For art theatres this is a huge problem and it just keeps getting bigger. We cope with it the best way we can. Hell, sometimes there isn't even a BRay to play...we have play DVDs. Believe me, it's not by choice.

I hope you understand that I meant no disrespect. It is definitely a shame that the studios are lacking when it comes to such things. Art houses deserve the same respect as any theater .... they help keep films and their history alive for all to enjoy. Studios should have the same objectives.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 12-27-2012, 01:06 PM:

quote: Randy Stankey
If a company takes the time to write a form letter it must mean that they've been asked this question enough times to warrant the writing of a form letter. A lot of people must be asking the same question.

So, then, a way to combat that would be for a lot more people to write them letters.

I would think that this is something that only a show of numbers can achieve. Ideally, NATO should take up the cause on its members' behalf and show Oppo that there is a true market for this. When they get anecdotal messages from individuals, I don't think it's going to have the same impact.

For example, a customer service person receives the feedback messages sent in via their web site. However, a sales rep is going to field a call from someone looking for volume purchases. Who is going to be able to make something like a custom firmware happen? Not the customer service rep.

A specification document of needs should be drawn up, along with a commitment to purchase x units that meet said specification within a given amount of time. It should be possible to discuss the potential order with someone at Oppo that actually can make it happen, and at the end, you should have x units available with the features you need at the price you agreed upon.

Maybe this could be a Kickstarter project? I don't know the limitations of Kickstarter, but perhaps that would be a way to show tangible interest with committed purchases lined up.

If you get 500-1,000 commitments for $300 firmware upgrades, that's $150,000-$300,000. I would think that would be very difficult for any company to ignore, provided they have the ability to customize their firmware (unlike the companies that are just piecing together chipsets to make something that works).

The challenge is finding those 500-1,000 paying orders. Does anyone think that's a realistic number? If not, what is?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 12-27-2012, 01:42 PM:

I'm getting the feeling the Oppo people are just resellers of gear made OEM by another company so are unable to make any changes on their own.

They would like us to think they are the actual manufacturer otherwise they are diminished.

Posted by Steven J Hart (Member # 2340) on 12-27-2012, 07:26 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Is there ANY player that can output from the HDMI and regular SD video on the market anymore?

We have a Denon DBP-1611UD at our theater. It is still available. It provides video output to both composite and HDMI simultaneously. You can totally disable the onscreen display from the HDMI output, but not from the composite output. I use the composite output hooked to a small monitor to "cue-up" disk's while other material is playing on the main projector.

It pricey, but works very well. you can also control it via ethernet for show start commands from your server.

Steve

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-28-2012, 07:55 AM:

Maybe not entirely legal in some countries and not all studios would probably agree...

But... You can always "rip" the content off the Blu-Ray or DVD and create a DCP out of it. Sure, this will take quite a while, but you can even put some filters in between that even make DVD content look somewhat acceptable on a large screen.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-28-2012, 11:39 AM:

I don't see why a studio would object to a theater doing this, if they had properly licensed a title for exhibition. How you get it to the screen is nobody's business.

That said....I did a little experimenting with a Pink Panther cartoon and it took about 3 hours to make a DCP out of it using my relatively fast computer. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but if not I can't imagine how long it would take to make a DCP of a two-hour movie, and converting a Blu-Ray would take an eon or two. I guess a person needs to set up a "rendering farm" if they want to do that on a regular basis.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-28-2012, 12:52 PM:

I think you need compression hardware for your computer. You can get various cards that slip into your PCI slots to do the job of compressing video without weighing down the CPU which isn't really designed for the job.

Something like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618352-REG/Matrox_MCHD.html

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-28-2012, 02:59 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I don't see why a studio would object to a theater doing this, if they had properly licensed a title for exhibition. How you get it to the screen is nobody's business.

According to the DMCA you're more or less in dark waters once you start "ripping" this copy-protected content [Wink]

.

I've had my fair share of experiences in the past. I needed to create HQ on demand content for limited distribution, but the studio would not come up with some decent source material in a timely fashion, so I grabbed it from DVDs and added tons of filters to make it look "good". Although in many countries this is perfectly legal, they still didn't like the route I'd chosen. Everything was perfectly licensed, but they bitched about me using "illegal hacker tools" to get the job done...

quote: Mike Blakesley
That said....I did a little experimenting with a Pink Panther cartoon and it took about 3 hours to make a DCP out of it using my relatively fast computer. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but if not I can't imagine how long it would take to make a DCP of a two-hour movie, and converting a Blu-Ray would take an eon or two. I guess a person needs to set up a "rendering farm" if they want to do that on a regular basis.

If you use something like OpenDCP, which uses some generic open source JPEG2000 implementation, then you're probably in for a day or so of rendering on a halfway decent machine. The problem is purely the JPEG2000 compression library, not so much your hardware. But if you plan ahead, even that should not be your biggest problem.

Commercial products can do the job in a fraction of this time and often with better looking results, but they cost quite some money and are a bad investment if you do not regularly need them.

quote: Randy Stankey
I think you need compression hardware for your computer. You can get various cards that slip into your PCI slots to do the job of compressing video without weighing down the CPU which isn't really designed for the job.

The biggest problem is getting your software to work with those kind of hardware accelerators. It's hard enough to find software that use multiple cores in an effective way or even the raw GPU power already available in many PCs.

Posted by Wolfgang Woehl (Member # 6901) on 12-28-2012, 03:15 PM:

For bluray source an MPEG DCP is perfectly sufficient. asdcplib will process and wrap elementary streams and basically all systems in the field are able to play compositions with MPEG essence.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-28-2012, 07:35 PM:

quote: Wolfgang Woehl
For bluray source an MPEG DCP is perfectly sufficient. asdcplib will process and wrap elementary streams and basically all systems in the field are able to play compositions with MPEG essence.

I don't really agree. Transcoding stuff from one lossy format to another will reduce your image quality, so it's always best to choose the least lossy alternative as your destination format.

Most Blu-Ray content is encoded in H.264, which usually has far less compression artifacts at the same bitrate as MPEG-2 does. So, if your source is H.264, your aim should really be JPEG2000, at least if you still give a bit about image quality.

If 2K is required as a final output and not 1080p, I also prefer to add some small amount of letter boxing instead of using a scaler, which will soften the image even further.

DVD is really a shitty source format for DCPs, primarily because of the interlaced nature of the content, but Blu-Ray is actually not that bad. I guess that not many people will really see the difference between a DCP produced from Blu-Ray v.s. a "genuine DCP" produced by some studio, especially if the former is done right.

Posted by Don Furr (Member # 1469) on 12-28-2012, 09:19 PM:

Is there a Sony 3D player that will allow you to turn off the OSD with unlimited "pause" capabilities similar to the BDP-S380 2D version?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-03-2013, 06:11 AM:

To my knowledge, all current Sony players allow to turn off the OSD AND have unlimited pause. Sony tends to have all their players on a similiar feature set and menu system.

However, there are some BluRays around (Warner?), that have their own Screensavers implemented in JAVA. So even WITH a deactivated ScreenSaver/unlimited Pause on the player, they will show their own screen saver after a while.
You definitly need to use an HDMI switcher (monitor/projector) and/or the projector dowser to get rid of that issue.

If staff is educated properly on these issues, it is no problem to show BDs without any of the common irritations. Currently, it is just a problem to get ALL nice-to-have features in one device. e.g. the Sonys do not allow subtitle positioning. The Philips and Oppo allow this, but do not offer the OSD to be deactivated.

- Carsten

Posted by Wolfgang Woehl (Member # 6901) on 01-03-2013, 02:22 PM:

Re MPEG DCP: We're talking MPEG2 MP@HL bitrates, way sufficient for bluray source. 12 bpc JPEG2000 makes no sense at all for that kind of material.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-04-2013, 01:08 PM:

quote: Wolfgang Woehl
Re MPEG DCP: We're talking MPEG2 MP@HL bitrates, way sufficient for bluray source. 12 bpc JPEG2000 makes no sense at all for that kind of material.

Let's agree to disagree on this one.

MPEG2, even at MP@HL will have more compression artifacts than a string of JPEG2000 pictures. And yes, I do have my experiences. I've transcoded quite a bunch of content from Blu-Ray sources to MPEG2 at high bitrates. It's OK, good enough for normal HD-TV purposes, but nothing that I would want to present on a BIG screen.

The JPEG2000 version on the other hand looks quite indistinguishable from the Blu-Ray master.

Actually, most people will probably not really notice the difference, but most people even won't notice the difference between 35mm or digital, unless you specifically tell them...

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-24-2013, 09:51 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I have a very low-tech solution --- I have a cardboard "door" on the port window.

Mike -- How about this -- still low-tech, but a tad cooler, and you'll put some old hardware to use.

Take an old CD-ROM/DVD unit from a junked computer, cut piece of black construction paper the size of a CD and glue it in the caddy draw where the CD/DVD would have gone. Mount the whole thing right in front of your projector lens. Wire up the push-button terminals to an external switch that you mount next to your BluRay player. Ready to start the show? Press the button and, bingo, the CDROM draw (let's call it a dowser) opens and covers the projector lens for you. Press you switch again and it the "dowser" shuts. Not bad for making use of those CD-ROM units.

We have about a dozen of those CD-ROM units just sitting in a cardboard box because every time we buy a new computer, we strip the old one and save parts...for what, I don't know, but at least there's a use for one of them. Oh yah, you will also need to power it. Well, you know all those AC to 12DC power supply widgets that come with every small electronic gadget like computer speakers? You know, the dozen or so you have sitting in a cardboard box because every time you buy a new gadget, you throw away the old gadget, but you still have it's power supply and you don't throw that away because you can't remember exactly what is for, so you save it...you kno, in that cardboard box with all the other orphaned power supply widgets. Well, use one of them to power up your new automatic projector dowser!

Disclaimer -- I never got around to doing this, just thought it up so if you do use it, let us know how it works out.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-25-2013, 07:00 AM:

An nice practical idea Frank. ;-)

- Carsten

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-25-2013, 10:17 AM:

Frank--I've done that. It works. I used a generic CD drive in a Sun "411" box, which has its own internal power supply. The only problem is that you don't get separate "open" and "close" buttons, but rather a single button that reverses the current position of the tray.

I really wish that the manufacturers of video projectors would realize how important it is to have an instantaneous open/close douser function (like on a film projector), not the 1/2-second (or so) delay that Christie (and others) seem to think is acceptable.

And, as always, I advocate wiring the video projector douser function into your film projector changeover system (if you have one or more film projectors in your booth). For festivals and events, there are few things nicer than having the ability to do (almost) seamless film/video changeovers.

Posted by Robert Harrison (Member # 3202) on 10-21-2013, 01:35 PM:

Hey, everybody,

James Bond of Full Aperture Systems has just notified me that Oppo finally has an update which will disable the on screen display.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 10-21-2013, 02:13 PM:

Can confirm. I updated my player at home over the weekend.

Works like a charm.

Now they just need to allow us to disable that Oppo loading screening when playing a list of files off of a hard drive.

AJG

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-21-2013, 02:38 PM:

Which firmware for which player types? I don't see anything on OPPOs site, except that there is an Oct 17. firmware for the 93 and 95 model. Is that it? The firmware history doesn't mention the OSD.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-21-2013, 04:25 PM:

I know that the current OPPOs (103) can disable the OSD as well as the screen saver. I've tested with it paused for about 1/2 and hour and when I hit play, it started right from where I paused it (freeze frame and all).

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-21-2013, 07:50 PM:

Is there a fourth OSD option now? Or do you disable it elsewhere?

'OSD Mode – Allows you to select how long the on-screen display (OSD) information, such as playback operation icons (PAUSE, STOP, SKIP, etc.), stays on the TV screen.

Normal – OSD information stays on the TV screen until the user cancels it.

Minimal – OSD information stays on the TV screen for a few seconds and then
disappears. The front panel display still maintains the selected display information.

Remaining – OSD information stays on the TV screen until the user cancels it. By default, displays remaining time instead of elapsed time.'

- Carsten

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 11-01-2013, 12:41 PM:

Just downloaded the firmware upgrade for 93's and 95's. You can now turn off the OSD. Its under Video Setup/Display Options/OSD Mode.

Normal
Remaining
Silent
Off

If you like to have your digital display on the player countdown (remaining) instead of up you can hit display then hit the page down button on the remote.

Here is a link to their release notes
http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93/bdp9x-firmware-79-0910.aspx

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 02-18-2017, 12:06 PM:

It has been 1204 days since the last post.

Posted by Mihkel Salk (Member # 8339) on 02-18-2017, 12:06 PM:

Has anyone found a way to disable the loading screen when playing a list of files off a HDD?
It should probably be doable with a custom FW.

Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 02-18-2017, 01:02 PM:

Sorry I don't have an answer for that, but I got my BDP-93 in 2012 and didn't know this thread existed til now. Satisfied with the player for the most part but the on-screen display was a big complaint, I had asked them about that shortly after getting the player and they said they didn't want people to not know what the player was doing or something stupid like that. I did set it to Off as soon as that update came out, good to know there were a lot of other complaints about it! If only other electronics companies listened as much to consumers (though as mentioned, the Sony player I had before already had the option to turn the OSD completely off.)