Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Any way to have NEC projector tail lights displayed in a remote location

This is topic Any way to have NEC projector tail lights displayed in a remote location in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Chris Daigle (Member # 7347) on 01-22-2013, 08:13 PM:

I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on if its possible to display the NEC tail lights on a panel downstairs? In the event of an error condition, particularly when a show fails to start, the tail lights will be blinking red and the alarm will be going off up in the booth but because no one is in the booth, it goes un-noticed until the manager who is downstairs is notified by an employee or a customer that the show didn't start. I wanted to try and build something similar to my old Kelmar status board that we had in the 35mm world so that if we get an error at any time, a red light will blink (and possibly activate a buzzer) in the managers office and they can address it right away and not have to potentially wait for a customer to come out of the auditorium and tell us that there is a problem.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-23-2013, 02:24 AM:

Not so much a monitor to check the tail lights on the NEC, but a client monitor to the server which controlls the projector.

Depending on the server, a network switch would go from server to monitor computer downstairs along with compatible software that can monitor the server's status .. and with on screen controls to remote operate the unit upstairs.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2013, 06:31 AM:

I would say the way forward on such an display would be one that can read SNMP messages, parse them and then show the status. Some have even considered having the equipment just email to ones smart phone.

Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 01-23-2013, 07:22 AM:

It would be cheating to suggest a CCTV camera pointed at the rear of the unit linked to a monitor elsewhere, wouldn't it?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 01-23-2013, 07:29 AM:

There hasn't been much if any thought given to this kind of concern by the digital cinema industry. "Security" is their number one design criterion, and they barely seem to be interested in actually showing motion pictures... security would be so much easier if they didn't have to let them out of the vault.
With a TMS system you can easily add a tablet computer or similar at any location, connected on the TMS/server management network, and VNC into the TMS to show the status of each server. Unfortunately the TMS only knows what the servers are doing. The servers, though, will happily play a show and indicate "all is well" on the TMS status screen - into a projector with its lamp off, a sound system that's not even turned on, or an automation control box that's failed or not powered leaving the house lights on or the sound playing nonsync.
There's no substitute for having an usher do a quick check during trailers to confirm the room is operational. Even with 35mm automation, there are problems that don't cause any "red light" alarms at the indicator panel.
You can't rely on patrons. They will sit through incredibly bad projection problems without going out to find a staff member. A staff member has to be doing auditorium checks - hopefully before the feature starts and at least once during it.
Doing test shows to confirm the DCP is OK also tests the auditorium - picture and sound quality should be assessed, and test shows should be rotated through all the rooms rather than always be in the most convenient/warmest/largest house.
I know of cinemas with a simple "security" camera set up in each auditorium. With a split screen monitor showing all the cameras the manager can at least see that there's an image on screen.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 01-23-2013, 08:01 AM:

So, I understand that D-Cinema was sold to the exhibition industry on the premise that "you'd be able to save payroll". However, I am a firm believer in proper customer service. When we were 35mm, we had ushers check the shows at start time to make sure everything was o.k. (picture, sound, audience behavior, etc.)Now that we are digital, that practice has not changed. It even seems more important now - just to make sure the show is on screen.

While it is completely possible to set up SNMP traps for alerts and then having them sent out to various network locations, I still think good ole customer service is the answer to this problem. The more we turn over the operations of our theatres to machines, the less customer friendly we become...

Posted by Chris Daigle (Member # 7347) on 01-23-2013, 08:31 AM:

I completely agree with all who say that an usher should be checking the auditorium during the trailers. We do that religiously and will generally catch most issues... however, my reason for wanting an earlier warning is that it seems the solution for many (not all) problems is to be re-boot the projector and/or server and then re-start the show. This whole process can take 6 or 7 minutes on top of the 3-4 minutes it may take before the usher realizes there is a problem and notifies the manager. I was hoping that maybe someone had figured out a way to immediately notify the manager via lights or alarm of an error at show start so that we could start the recovery process a few minutes earlier which goes to the improving customer service issue.

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 01-23-2013, 03:04 PM:

Hi Chris
(Disclaimer: I have not yet utilised this myself so am unsure of all details following, but could be worth further investigation for you)...

For something nice and simple like a projector status panel, it may be possible to use the 37pin GPIO on the NEC. You won't get as much immediate information as SNMP traps can provide but I think as per your requirements this could work fine.

In their DCC software there is a GPIO setting page where you (or installer/tech) can assign a few limited functions to the inputs and outputs.
One of the output options is Projector Error Status. There is an option to choose what errors are monitored (I'd leave the all on, at least to start with as better a false alarm than no alarm) and in terms of setup it appears you can choose what state (Error/Normal) goes either High or Low on the output.

I have to say, in my experience, the number of Red Tail Light errors is pretty low, and more often than not the problems at show start is more likely to be a Dowser not opening or something and of course that is not an "Error", so that would only be picked up by a theatre check (or CCTV feed etc), BUT, in terms of covering ALL bases as much as possible in the name of Customer Service, I agree that this sort of thing is worth investigating..

If anybody has used the GPIO on the NEC's, please feel free to comment and let me know if I'm wildly off the mark in terms of it's abilities!

Cheers,
Ian

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-23-2013, 03:40 PM:

Another Thought: If warm rebooting is necessary, sounds like the server and projector needs to be cold booted (complete and total shut down then restart)once a week to clear out "stale" memory that resides in these units especially if the two units are in standby or left on 24/7 all the time ... like you do with a computer (in which these two units actually are).

Doing this weekly shutdown procedure definitely eliminates such errors in the presentation schedules.

(An easier way to get the show back on if the server is playing back okey and the projector is stuck on preshow, is to do your macro change manually. Just press and hold the Macro button, then press your format button. Kinda does away with warm boots).

Good luck - Monte

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2013, 04:50 PM:

I'm surprised NEC doesn't offer a $700 remote tail light display for just this type of thing.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-23-2013, 06:30 PM:

Why? I could sell you a computer system for much less that just runs the DCC and you will get the indicator in the upper right corner.

What I think could be done is for the conventional automation companies (like Eprad) is to parse the SNMP or other usable data coming from the projector and then work with their existing tally LEDs. One can already have those LEDs for their status station change based on where the show is (one can manually change them in the Macros/Programs)...the key would be to have a suitable macro execute if the right conditions occurred to cause the show to stop and then sound the right alarm...like a film break used to do.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-23-2013, 07:24 PM:

Would it seriously be that hard for someone to get off their lazy ass and actually take a quick stroll through the projection booth (if such exists) at the scheduled show start times?

Added benefit, if there is a problem it could be attended to right away.

Even running a 20-plex of film machines by myself it wasn't that big of a deal to do a walk-thru at show starts.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-23-2013, 09:13 PM:

Yeah, you would think it would be pretty easy for a "manager" to go from screen to screen and check things out. Having never worked in a multiplex myself I don't know for sure, but it seems like a no-brainer from a customer service standpoint.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-23-2013, 11:08 PM:

True, I've noticed a trend of booth checks on the downhill roll since digital presentations arrived - like the arrival of a "magic box that does everything" eliminating an important location duty with the attributes of complacency and comfortability being the replacement.

Posted by Mike Connell (Member # 7432) on 01-24-2013, 05:22 AM:

I've been considering this over night (silly things like this bother me [Big Grin]

) and it seems the simplest method would be to make a quick circuit which runs off the indicator bulb to a relay which then operates both an indicator light in the projection room and one in the remote location. If you're lucky enough to have Cat5 cabling in the premises, you could use this to hook through the remote location.

I am making a massive assumption that the NEC projector has a simply accessible bulb and holder of course - not knowing the hardware specifically I don't honestly know...

Hi everyone, by the way!

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 01-24-2013, 05:48 AM:

The Raspberry Pi can be quite useful for this sort of thing. It's dirt cheap, combined it with a DVI monitor that has a USB port (to power the Pi) and you have a very cheap little solution.

You have to get a wee bit clever as there's no off the self software for it, especially for this sort of application. However they aren't tough things to program for, and you might even learn something [Wink]

Posted by Mike Connell (Member # 7432) on 01-24-2013, 06:10 AM:

Funnily enough, I thought about a little Pi project could sort this - maybe even using something as simple as Scratch or Python and the USB education board add on (which monitors open or closed circuits) or a PiFace breakout board. Would be a fun project to do and reasonably easy! Heck, you could sling a small webcam onto the Pi and have a simple auditorium monitor running on the same system.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 01-24-2013, 10:09 AM:

Technology promotes laziness.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 01-24-2013, 12:55 PM:

quote: Chris Daigle
because no one is in the booth, it goes un-noticed

.... and that's the problem with the entire motion picture
exhibition industry today.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 01-24-2013, 02:00 PM:

I suppose you could work up some way to relay the projector indicator to the lobby/office... but there are so many other things that could go wrong. Like the sound system doesn't switch to film sound, the server freezes up or wasn't set to run scheduled shows, or any number of things.
Also, any modifications to the projection equipment may be prohibited if you are in a VPF program.
There were a few posts suggesting using the GPIO for this. Good plan, but I would want both server and projector GPIO. I think you could have the projector GPIO set up to tell you "lamp on" and "dowser open", and the server should be able to tell you it's in "play" mode. All three of those "on" should indicate a show is running. This would be a big job to figure out, put together, and wire up. And you would still want a staff member do a theatre check at least at the start of the feature to check sound level, focus, etc.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-24-2013, 02:28 PM:

quote: Mike Connell
I've been considering this over night (silly things like this bother me [Big Grin] ) and it seems the simplest method would be to make a quick circuit which runs off the indicator bulb to a relay which then operates both an indicator light in the projection room and one in the remote location. If you're lucky enough to have Cat5 cabling in the premises, you could use this to hook through the remote location.

I am making a massive assumption that the NEC projector has a simply accessible bulb and holder of course - not knowing the hardware specifically I don't honestly know...

Mike, the simplest solution is the one I had posted..get off your lazy ass and walk the booth during show starts. [Roll Eyes]

You assume wrong..the projector uses LED and not a "bulb and holder" oh, and by the way trying to tap into those lamps would not only void the projector's warranty but I'm betting you also have to access the secure compartments of the projector to get to them...which would open up another can of worms.

quote: Monte Fullmer
True, I've noticed a trend of booth checks on the downhill roll since digital presentations arrived - like the arrival of a "magic box that does everything" eliminating an important location duty with the attributes of complacency and comfortability being the replacement.

That attitude was bad enough during the film era and now.... [Eek!]

quote: Dennis Benjamin
Technology promotes laziness.

As is evident from this thread. [Big Grin]

quote: Jim Cassedy

quote: Chris Daigle
because no one is in the booth, it goes un-noticed
.... and that's the problem with the entire motion picture
exhibition industry today.

Exactly.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 01-24-2013, 03:21 PM:

Interesting:

Red Solid - projector off
Red Flashing - bulb change needed
Green Solid - projector on

No light codes to show playing issues.

Take a tail-light off and run extension wire spliced from the wires that goes to the tail light, run the wire downstairs and mount that tail light were the eye can see it.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 01-24-2013, 05:18 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
......Take a tail-light off and run extension wire spliced from the wires that goes to the tail light, run the wire downstairs and mount that tail light were the eye can see it.

Ummm, no. Bad idea:

quote: me
.... oh, and by the way trying to tap into those lamps would not only void the projector's warranty but I'm betting you also have to access the secure compartments of the projector to get to them...which would open up another can of worms.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-24-2013, 06:13 PM:

Orange Solid is projector off (presuming there were no errors when it shut down). The RED flashing on lamp warning has been an issue since most are now conditioned that when a DCinema device has a RED indicator...shows are not going to run. They could have used the Orange-flashing or green-then-orange indicator for lamp out of hours.

The problem with just seeing the dowser open/lamp on/player running is that it all has to be "causal" as an indicator system has to know what order those events occurred and that once all are set, that if they cease to be true before some event that indicates that it is okay for them to turn off, the annunciator system is going to be more annoying than helpful.

Again, a suitable automation can be made and I have no doubt that existing ones can (and some may already do it...like the Film-Tech DCS)...one can have the system check that the lamp is lit, douser open, sound is on...etc...it is a matter of how much does one want to pay for such a thing and how many will pay for it to be made/marketed...etc.

Posted by Mike Connell (Member # 7432) on 01-25-2013, 03:18 AM:

quote: Tony
Mike, the simplest solution is the one I had posted..get off your lazy ass and walk the booth during show starts.

You assume wrong..the projector uses LED and not a "bulb and holder" oh, and by the way trying to tap into those lamps would not only void the projector's warranty but I'm betting you also have to access the secure compartments of the projector to get to them...which would open up another can of worms.

Hey Tony - I completely agree with you, but for those of us planning boothless projectors, a secondary indication which runs down to the FOH is never going to do any harm, is it? And you're absolutely right - if it's LEDs then it wouldn't be worth hacking in to it - just pop some photosensitive switches by the bulbs, adjust sensitivity accordingly and use that to trigger the relays/indicators.

Posted by Chris Daigle (Member # 7347) on 01-25-2013, 11:59 AM:

Thanks to everyone who responded. This thread seemed to go from a question on if something was technically feasible to an indictment on managment style, laziness and the problems with the exhibition business! Unfortunately having someone in the booth at all times is never coming back to this industry but I'm sure that I, like most small independent theater operators feel that providing great customer service and flawless presentations is our number one priority. Many of us are obsessed with knowing what is going on in the theater at all times and my only concern here was if there was a way to have the projector indicators also display in a remote location for the times during the day that no one was in the booth and a problem cropped up. I have two different booths at the same location, so unfortunately can't be everywhere every minute of the day and this was an idea to have another "set of eyes" on the equipment. We've been digital for 2 1/2 years now and have only had a handful of shows that crapped out on us mid-show that had an audible & light alarm from the projector so this solution was meant to only help us with a few issues per year. A remote monitor would have helped, not to prevent the problem, but for us to address it quicker. As Mike correctly pointed out, what harm is there in having a secondary indicator at a remote location (unless you foolishly stop doing whats right and start relying solely on the technology). Based on the posts of very knowledgeable people here, the answer seems to be that it is not easily feasible at this time. There are some possibilities but nothing that seems to be worth the effort or that can be done quickly and without hacking into the projector and potentially causing some other issues. Thanks again for all the constructive feedback.

Posted by James Crowley (Member # 7299) on 01-27-2013, 03:44 PM:

What if you went GPIO out into the raspberry pi as mentioned earlier then used SNMP from the pi to the theatre office PCs running an SNMP agent. Now I have no experience yet on pi's so i am no expert any programming needed.
The LED indicator lights are all internal and I am pretty sure that any connections will give a tamper fail on the machine.
Being a former projectionist I am all in favour of proper checks but I think that's now all in the past as some new builds are having the booths removed all together.