This is topic Super simple automation with Christie Solaria One? in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-08-2013, 03:07 PM:
 
The only automation I need is for house lights, and I'm having a tough time justifying both the cost and the learning curve for a simple 4 scene controller. Any ideas? Right now the best I've come up with is the jnior automation with Tec8112 dimmer. With our theatres changing over to dimmable fluorescent bulbs, and fairly small houses, what else could we do cheaper and easier? There isn't a GPIO on the Solaria One, unfortunately.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-08-2013, 03:29 PM:
 
If you are spending that much, please consider LED bulbs: use old fixtures and if you have them, the old dimmers will work, too. Louis
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-08-2013, 06:12 PM:
 
We are testing the dimmable led bulbs now, Louis. And the Tec8112 units are what's existing in our Kendig theatre now. The jnior is possible to use, but I have no idea how to program it to work with the Christie sms/imb. I figure I can get someone to help with that part, but it does seem totally overblown for a simple 4 wire control system to me.
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 02-08-2013, 06:48 PM:
 
I tried a dimmable fluorescent bulb a few years ago with the idea of putting them in my auditorium but I discovered that once you dim them to a certain point (which isn't all that dim) they start to flash on and off. So the one that I tried was totally unsuitable for my application.

I've never tried a dimmable LED bulb.
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-08-2013, 07:43 PM:
 
I think you'll find the newer ones don't do that. We have them in several auditoriums now, and continue to use them as replacements as traditional one burn out.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-09-2013, 08:11 AM:
 
Ronda - getting jnior and associated gear to work is not exactly your job as an operator. While the technically skilled are certainly able to do it on their own, the learning curve is just too steep. Get someone in with the necessary knowledge.

Replacing lights from a classic 'lights down' auditorium into modern CFL/LED based fixtures is not easy. Probably the cheapest way to do this is through DMX, which is a well established light control protocol broadly used in the stage/theater area.

There are network/ethernet DMX bridges available that will let you control all sorts of light equipment through the Christie IMS Playlist feature. The Jnior is a generic automation device and COULD be used in conjunction with other interfaces.

Again, get someone in with a good understanding of this.

Classic dimmers will not work with LED or flurorescent lights, at least not 'nicely', that is, cold from 0% to 100%.

For now, we keep our classic motor dimmers and use high-voltage tungsten bulbs. They give a very nice light, save some energy compared to the old simple bulbs.
Plus - they last longer (even more when always brought up through the dimmer).

We use fluorescent and LED in areas where they do not need to be dimmed.

LED certainly has a bright future. But there is not enough standards yet as far as form, light colour, brightness and other parameters go. Good for special light design, etc, but not yet for general lighting.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-09-2013, 01:16 PM:
 
Thanks Carsten,

I've been researching the DMX lighting systems to see if I can do a conversion for about the price of traditional automation. It makes sense to me to do what we can to save money in operations, and to reduce our footprint. Good to know there are commands through the Christie system available. I wasn't able to locate a source of info on this. Might I ask where you found it?

I'm the owner, not an operator per se, and I'm fairly technically inclined. While I'm always happy to hire help in situations that require expertise, it's been my experience that my understanding deeply the issues and choices involved help to create long term solutions that work for everyone.

Usually, I know just enough to be dangerous Sometimes, I can help a staff member save a show or fix something. Mostly, I help them figure out who to call when it could be one of several issues.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-09-2013, 03:09 PM:
 
Ronda, most 'classic' servers have a set of GPIO/relay contacts which can be used to control curtains, masking, lights. On the Christie IMS, there is not enough space on the board, and Christie also probably wanted to keep direkt GPIO away from their IMS.

So, networked control interfaces are your only option. The Christie IMS allows you to setup playlist macro cues that may contain the sending of commands over ethernet. It's more or less the same as used e.g. on a Doremi server.

For more infos, have a look at the Christie IMB integration guide:

http://www.christiedigital.com/SupportDocs/Anonymous/020-100962-02-Christie-LIT-GUID-INTEG-Christie-IMB.pdf

A Jnior is certainly a good starting point to gain some experience. If your dimmer can be controlled by simple relay/button contacts, the Jnior will do.

A networked control interface has another benefit compared to a server integrated GPIO - it can be controlled even when the server is powered down. It can be controlled from multiple sources on the same network. E.g. a single Jnior could be controlled from multiple Christie IMS'. Or, in addition to an IMS, you can issue commands for light, etc. from another plain PC on the network, tablet, smartphone, etc.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 02-09-2013, 07:38 PM:
 
I assume the jnior is supported by the christie i would be suprised if it wasnt the TEC8112 will upport 3 preset levels and a down level (essentially off) by momentatry pulses to ground
The dimmer works well with certain CFL and some of the led modules if powered by a magnetic transformer not a solid state one
 

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Posted by Aleksandar Obradovic (Member # 7266) on 02-14-2013, 03:21 PM:
 
Like someone said if you are using some D-cinema server you can use their GIPO to trigger jnior. I can help you regarding this if you are using Doremi servers (DCP 2k4, DCP 2000 or ShowVault) with jnior libraries and setup.

According to the dimming. LED's need PWM devices or DALI to make them dimmable while fluo tubes need something similar. Also don't forget that jnior (i have jnior 310) have relay outputs which are basically on/off switches so if you are planing to use this you must have different inputs for light levels at, let's call it "dimmer control".

Maybe you should consider next combo:
LED DALI dimmer + 4DIN/4DOUT PLC with analog 0..10V output module (to drive PWM/dimmer) + jnior. Est. price for this combo will range from 150-200 euros for PLC + High-Power LED dimmer to... (sky/wallet is the limit ) including setup and programming.

BR Alexander
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-14-2013, 06:13 PM:
 
Gorden, your in Toronto? Pop over and ask them, would you? lol

I thought the Tec has both a mag and a solid state controller for whatever your needs... I'll have to check to be sure ours do. I'll ask the manager how the dimmable led she just installed is working too.

Alek, I'll start reading up on your suggestions. Sounds like lots of opportunity for failure to me. Have you seen the Opto22 modules. Is this along the lines of what you are talking about? I was thinking of using these in place of the jnior, not in addition to though.

No one knows of a cheap simple 4 wire 12V output pulse to ground controlled by ethernet hookup/commands? Sigh... too much to ask for I guess... Thanks for the suggestions, fellows.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-14-2013, 07:07 PM:
 
The JNIOR IS the "cheap" Ethernet to contact closure automation. If it was much cheaper than that, there would be little point of manufacturing it since one could not make any money. In fact, the JNIOR has kept other automation companies at bay due them dropping the bottom out of the automation market.

Another factor in there is that the non-S2K projector (all there was up until the last couple of months) had GPIO terminals plus the servers also have GPIO terminals...some (e.g. Dolby) have real relays on them for isolation...so they had a "free" degree of light control.

I think you'll find that the JNIOR is the lowest cost of DCinema automation out there...to do it less will require more of a home-made approach.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-15-2013, 09:02 AM:
 
Yep - e.g. the Doremi IMS for Barco and NEC S2k still has discrete GPIO on the server. Only the Christie IMS lacks them.

There are other Ethernet-IO converters available, some also cheaper than the JNIOR, but as Steve said, the JNIOR is the defacto standard in digital cinema, most manuals deal with them, most servers have presets/libraries for them, so, go with it.

You may be able to make a deal on ebay or elsewhere. These are not only sold into the cinema business.

And as I said, it may be possible to control multiple screens with just one Jnior, as long as you only need dimmer switching.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Aleksandar Obradovic (Member # 7266) on 02-21-2013, 12:25 PM:
 
Main problem regarding this is that Ronda needs 4 swichable scenes which can be achieved only with 0-10V PWM device to drive LEDs but for this some device must be put between jnior and PWM driver to "translate" relay outputs to analog voltage. Like i said for this purpose small 4DI/4DO PLC with analog module can be used.

I am using this solution in one of our cinemas to switch between scenes. Old lighting is thyristor based & i was forced to find some fast solution during conversion process to d-cinema. Some of PLC's has serial port which can accept raw serial commands so there is no need for middle-ware. This solution cost me 150 euros per cinema (900 euros for 6 room multiplex).

Try to find something like this and i will be glad to help you with configuration and implementation.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-22-2013, 02:00 PM:
 
What Ronda probably concerns is the cost for 6 JNIOR devices on top of her dimmers for 6 screens.

First of all, one JNIOR can control multiple screens, if the wiring is there from one JNIOR to multiple dimmers.

Second, there are of course much cheaper ethernet or TCP/IP - relay controllers. The JNIOR is just the defacto standard in cinemas and usually supported by every server.
Although they all usually work as a RAW device by using IP adress and port number, it is not said that every device works from the Christie SPL interface. Plus, the lower the cost, the more complicated to set them up for the average projectionist. I you find a local wizard to help you with it, it could come out a lot cheaper.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=ethernet+relay&_sacat=0&_from=R40

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-28-2013, 05:04 PM:
 
Alek, Carsten, thanks for the help. I can't see how one Jnior could control 2 screens. If we use the Christie RS-232 input, we would only have space for one, unless you are thinking a splitter? And if we use the Ethernet input, we would have to run another line from the projector switch at say, Proj1 and Proj2 switches and then to the jnior? I'm intrigued! If I can use one for two houses, it would be awesome. All of our booths are double Jerry Lewis style in Kendig, and York too. And Harrisburg's are set up with fairly close projectors, so it should work there too.

Alek, I'm fairly certain the jnior will provide correct voltage to the dimmer directly. Am I reading something incorrectly? Is there a reason you think I need another device the jnior would then tell to pulse the dimmer?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-28-2013, 05:12 PM:
 
Ronda, the JNIOR is an ethernet-device, it can sit in the same network as all your Christies. As such, it can be controlled from ALL your Christies. It does not need a dedicated connection to ONE IMS. Even six Christies could control a single JNIOR that way. Just that you would run out of individual switchable relays for your light scenes for 6 screens.

It has 8 Relays - the first four can be controlled from IMS1, the second four from IMS2. It can even be extended to more GPOs, but then you would have to wire across booths.

Piece of cake when two machines and dimmers are in the same booth.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Ronda Fitzsimmons (Member # 1418) on 02-28-2013, 06:57 PM:
 
I'm convinced Carsten! 10 units vs 20 makes a very big difference! Thank you! So on the other question, do you see any reason for the jnior to need an intermediate device between the jnior and the dimmer?
 

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 02-28-2013, 08:11 PM:
 
Speaking of dimmers, are these usually taking momentary contact closures to ground for control? What is the typical open circuit voltage and the closed circuit current? Can they be driven by open drain or open collector devices? Is anyone using DMX-512 for dimmer control?

THANKS!

Harold
(who used to design theatrical light dimmers)
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-01-2013, 06:52 AM:
 

quote: Ronda Fitzsimmons

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So on the other question, do you see any reason for the jnior to need an intermediate device between the jnior and the dimmer?

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