Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Upgrading 2K to 4K

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Posted by Lincoln Spector (Member # 6835) on 03-01-2013, 06:33 PM:

When a local art house went digital last year, the manager said they bought Barco 2K projectors that can be upgraded to 4K.

How common is that, and how much do those upgrades cost?

Lincoln

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-01-2013, 06:45 PM:

Its easy. 10 minutes to swap the lensing and light engine, and then another 5-20 minutes to rebuild the formats (depending on how precise or sloppy the installer is).

For cost you need to check with your dealer. It isn't particularly cheap.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2013, 08:52 PM:

So you are saying that (presuming the packaging is unwrapped but the equipment is running 2K)...you can have a theatre converted to 4K in 30-minutes...including recalibrating color, screen and lens files for all formats (presume at least 6)?

This I've got to see (in person...don't want no sped up videos!).

In truth, especially on a Barco...it is a relatively fast operation for anyone that knows how to pull/reinstall a light engine.

Odds are, you will need to ad an IMB to replace the existing mediablock too (or perhaps at least get a license, depending on make/model).

From what I can tell, Barco has the cheapest, by far, on the 2K->4K upgrade path and NEC has the cheapest 4K/2K difference on new projectors.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-01-2013, 10:37 PM:

Well in talking about Barco specifically, I can pull a light engine and install the 3D wheel and have it re-installed in 20 minutes (yes I have timed it), so yeah. Just swapping a light engine won't take any time at all. Lens files are super fast and easy too. Colors only take a few minutes. What's the mathematical issue here? Granted this is assuming all tools and such are unpacked and ready to go. If you want to add that sort of time we're still talking under an hour.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2013, 11:35 PM:

That is faster than I do it.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-02-2013, 12:03 AM:

I'm sure it's only because I've installed so many of those Dolby 3D kits. My first one wasn't exactly timely at all. [Wink]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-02-2013, 03:59 AM:

I would never rush when unplugging those tiny plastic connectors from the backplane, not even after 10.000 times! Particularly the ones by the side of the vane, where you don't have a good grip with your hands. But this is just me.

Don't you need to run a sw upgrade when swapping a light engine?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-02-2013, 05:44 AM:

quote: Lincoln Spector
How common is that, and how much do those upgrades cost?

It is quite expensive compared to a new machine, so I guess it is not really common to do it.

I have seen quotes in the 30.000€ range - new light engine, maybe new IMB/server/mod/, 4k license, and if you want to do it right, a 4k lens (depending on your existing screen and lens, you may need a new longer lens anyway). Plus labor.

Doesn't really make sense, unless your existing 2k light engine would need to be exchanged for some reason anyway.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2013, 06:24 AM:

I've done MANY Dolby 3D upgrades on the Barcos...I've even swapped out light engines having to move the Dolby 3D wheel when a suitable light engine was not available when I needed it.

I don't find it hard or particularly time consuming but not as fast as you claim.

Marco...there is a difference between working fast and rough handling. I highly doubt that Brad is just grabbing the cables and yanking.

My slowest part is probably fitting the color wheel since the integrating rod is exposed (and ALWAYS dirty...on anybody's projector). Also, mounting that heat sensor to the colorwheel can be annoying (like a Simplex sound head lateral guide roller bearing retainer...the one with the three screws). I also dress the 3D cable a bit...sometimes even putting it in the spiral wrap.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-02-2013, 08:17 AM:

Oh, I didn't mean that for sure! I was talking of myself, I feel those plugs are so fragile I always take my time doing it.
That said, if I'm not distracted by anything else and not considering the time spent opening and closing the projector, the bare time I need to remove a Barco light engine and to put it back with a Dolby wheel is 45m-ish.

On top of that I need a few minutes to test the projector *before* removing the light engine (check with a white pattern that everything is ok: if you find something wrong AFTER you've replaced the wheel, how do you know it wasn't like that before?), opening/closing time, and software upgrades.

And as steve says, the moment when the integrator rod is exposed is the slowest one

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 03-02-2013, 09:12 AM:

The Barco "B" lenses are all 2K/4K. Unless you are now at or close to a zoom limit you shouldn't need a new lens. The lens throw ratio ranges are slightly different for 4K (both ranges are marked on lenses) because the 4K chips are slightly larger.
The cost is rather stunning especially if you have a non-4K server to upgrade to IMB. Probably Barco gives you a refund on the 2K light engine but the price is definitely high regardless.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-02-2013, 01:39 PM:

They are quasi-4K lenses. These lenses were designed with 2K MTFs so you are likely not getting as much of the 4K resolution as a properly designed 4K. If you check InVision, you'll see they now have lenses designed specifically for 4K. I believe Schneider designs their lenses with 4K MTFs.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-02-2013, 11:16 PM:

Steve, there is enough slack on the temp sensor to connect it to the wheel assembly before attaching to the integrator rod. You'll save yourself a few minutes and some frustration if you connect that first next time.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-03-2013, 05:02 AM:

Thanks for the tip. I'll admit, I tend to route those delicate wires so they don't touch the integrating rod at all and when I'm done...there is very little slack left...just enough so there is no stress on the wires.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-02-2013, 02:35 PM:

I'm told that upgrading my Barco DP2K-32B to 4K will have a negative impact on contrast ratio. Is this true?

Posted by John Roddy (Member # 7348) on 09-02-2013, 02:48 PM:

For what it's worth, we replaced one of the DP2K-32B's in my theater with a DP4K a while back, and I couldn't notice any negative differences in the image quality. If anything, it looked to be a little richer, though that could just be the result of freshly calibrated colors. I'm not sure what the effect would be from just upgrading the engine in a DP2K, but I'd imagine it's the same thing.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-02-2013, 03:34 PM:

What kind of lens did you have in that 32B? If you don't have a Minolta lens, for all practical purposes you're not going to resolve anywhere near the 4K of resolution. Even with a Minolta lens, you won't resolve all of it. This is due to a horrible lens mount design of which they have still yet to fix inducing vibration into the image. It affects all "B" series Barcos, but is particularly awful if a non-Minolta lens.

The phenomenon is similar to having high heat on a 35mm system. Often just putting a heat filter in place will resolve a LOT more resolution that was captured on the film but not seen on the screen pre-heat filter due to lowering the flutter.

Honestly 4K on the Barcos is a waste of money in my opinion. Then again so is 4K on a Sony with RealD (since hardly anyone actually pulls the RealD out for 2D shows).

Posted by John Roddy (Member # 7348) on 09-02-2013, 03:52 PM:

I'm fairly certain it is a Minolta lens. The one in the DP4K was a brand new one that was purchased with the projector (the old DP2K was just moved to another house, lens included). The image on screen with the DP4K is definitely a much finer resolution, and it looks very stable to me. Of course, I don't really get to see that very often. We only get one or two 4K movies every blue moon.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-02-2013, 07:35 PM:

I believe it's an In-Vision lens, but don't quote me on that. Memory ain't what it used to be.

Agreed about the vibration - it would kinda be a waste to go 4K with vibration. (Unless we decided to go ahead and "brand" it as "4K VBX")

But what's your take on the claim that contrast takes a hit when upgrading to 4K?

And if that's true, is it true for all makes/models?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-03-2013, 06:46 AM:

The 4K contrast ratio issue is a fact for all DLPs...not only does contrast ratio take a hit, so does uniformity across the screen. It is the dirty little secret about it. They have an issue with directing the light and the tight spacing on the mirrors. Note, the .69" projectors, which use 1/4 of the 4K chip have the same issue and hence they always have a lower contrast ratio.

As for Barco and 4K, I strongly disagree that you won't resolve the 4K image...it is VERY apparent when comparing a 2K to a 4K (and I have). Furthermore, I'd rather set up a 4K projector than a 2K...it is easier to dial in an alignment when you have fine detail.

That said, yes, the Barco lens mount needs to be fixed. I have some that are rock steady and some that shimmer...the weight of the lens, projector angle (more level projectors have more of an issue).

Overall though...if it were MY theatre...I'd go with the 4K every time.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-03-2013, 09:47 AM:

Thanks, Steve.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-03-2013, 10:24 AM:

Steve you absolutely will not resolve all of the 4K image. There's just no way on the "B" models unless you have some sort of odd secret like maybe pointing at a crazy downward angle. I'm not saying the 4K won't resolve more resolution than a 2K machine, but being set side by side next to a Christie for example, the Barco will lose.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-03-2013, 10:27 AM:

I do intend to look at both, the Christie and Barco 4K images.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-03-2013, 02:35 PM:

Even if the lens doesn't resolve the full 4k from 4k sources, I still think 4k ist the way to go, if only to get rid of the 2k pixel raster. Even upscaled 2k is better than a 2k pixel raster.

However: the contrast thing is indeed quite visible. I recently attended a trade show and was able to see 4k and 2k Kinotons back-to-back. The 4k projectors had a noticeable lower contrast ratio. This large screen had almost no emergency light issues and no masking, so it was clearly visible to the trained eye.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-03-2013, 04:10 PM:

I was told the native contrast ratio of a 4K chip is around 1800:1 vs the 2000:1 of the 2K chips if memory serves. I found that sometimes you come across machines with better blacks than others.

I have a question for you, I've been searching all day on the forum and no luck. I think someone mentioned a kit for the B series to try and stabilize the lens mount, made of a spring and a ball bearing? I believe someone mentioned the Barco article number as well. Am I imagining it or can someone point me to the post where that item was listed?

Thanks

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-03-2013, 04:26 PM:

Carsten, I'm blaming the tiny vibration in the lens mount more than the quality of the optics.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-03-2013, 05:07 PM:

Carsten, here's the info for the lens stabilization kit for the Barco DP2K-32B.

BME K LENS STABILIZER UPGRADE
E-Item: R8760143K

Note -- In our case, the "upgrade" mitigated the vibration, but did NOT resolve the issue entirely.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-03-2013, 05:10 PM:

Brad...when you are resolving all of the pixels...and I have...you are getting the 4K resolution. I don't even find it a close call. Just where are you basing your non-4K claim on the Barco? MOST of my Barco B series are rock steady...just a handful have had the issue of image shake. The shaky ones predominately level and ALL have had the Invision lenses that stuck out a good deal.

I have some pretty critical people looking at these images too.

As to the device to improve the steadiness...it has marginal help and only if you are willing to dial it in for your particular circumstance. It is part number R8760143K. It seems like only a some of the 19Bs were missing it.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 09-03-2013, 05:39 PM:

Even on 4K installs I find screen perfs to be the final limiting factor of screen resolution. What perf screens have u guys found to be the best for 4k?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-03-2013, 09:32 PM:

Steve you are misrepresenting the problem a little bit. Let's assume with a Minolta lens you can resolve the full 4K. I'm willing to say "sure" on that for the sake of discussion. But when you buy a Barco you can't specify what lens you get and Minoltas aren't available in all sizes! This means depending on your throw and screen size, you may get stuck with an Invision...and the odds are better that you will!

To add insult to injury, let's say a theater spends over $50k for a Barco B and ends up with an Invision lens. So Barco has this upgrade kit...but they do not provide them free of charge, you have to spend MORE money for it to compensate for THEIR original faulty design! So the theater spends $50k and then has to spend more money to get the projector to perform properly. How is this acceptable to you and your customers?

Needless to say this issue and Barco's attitude toward it has really made me take a closer look at the other options, and they are better.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-04-2013, 12:02 AM:

Brad,

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I have InVision lenses doing just fine. What I said was that where I have had issues, it has been an InVision lens.

As for the "upgrade kit" ALL Barco B series projectors have the lens stabilizer new (been that way except for about the first 6 months of the B series)...there is nothing to buy, at this point. In fact, It was known as a DP2K-19B upgrade kit because they were the predominate ones that were issued without the stabilizer. I know that all of our projector have them (I checked) and nobody paid any extra.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-04-2013, 12:16 AM:

I'm talking about a revision of that Steve, not the ones that have shipped on the B machines over the last year or two. Barco is working on it.

I am going to try jacking up the rear feet and raising the offset on a level B unit though just to see how that works. The theory does make sense, although that's the wrong way to setup a machine.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-04-2013, 11:39 AM:

Barco is working on it? They've have not told me that they are beyond what they have done thus far. It is enough of a problem that I (and most people I know) are very aware of it.

I agree...jacking a projector up to mitigate a design flaw is stupid. It also isn't a guarantee. I have some with a decent down angle that also shimmer.