Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Can we now revise downward the cost of digital conversions?

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Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 03-08-2013, 04:05 PM:

For some time what many theaters have been telling the public was that the total cost to convert to digital was $60,000 - $100,000 per screen (indoor, not drive-ins). Now that the newer smaller screen projectors/servers have started to be installed at prices in the $35,000-$40,000 range can we ditch that old range?

Most of the theaters yet to convert are pretty much smaller theaters with smaller screens?

Installers/Sales: Are any of you folks not looking at these as an option?

I wonder because I still see theater operators using the old range. Was wondering if it is because wanting to exaggerate (like the "we do not keep any of ticket sales" talk) or if these folks do not know about the units.

Thoughts?

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-08-2013, 10:11 PM:

My hunch is they'll go on quoting the high range -- this business is all about marketing hype. Basically, I see it breaking down like this:

If you've converted, the impression is that you "spared no expense" and "spent the money."

It also inflates the "divide" between home theatre and digital cinema. Now that cinema has gone digital, we need too make it seem as different, sophisticated, and out of reach as possible. Otherwise, people will figure it's only a matter of time before they can have this stuff in their home. And it probably is just a matter of time...but they don't need to know that just yet.

Meanwhile, those who have not converted can blame the delayed adoption on the "high" cost of conversion.

The industry completely threw 35mm film under the bus to sell the general public on the concept of digital projection, so I don't think there's much regard for facts here. If they had any regard for the facts, they would have thrown industry practices (printing as well as projection) under the bus, not film itself.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-09-2013, 07:08 AM:

The truth is also that there is no "normal" cost. I've found that for our special venues/art houses (we'll those that do more than just show Hollywood movies)...the costs remain quite high to satisfy all of the needs. Drive-Ins...the current people aggressively converting to DCinema for the Summer of 2013 are pretty much required to purchase the more expensive projectors (they need as much light as possible) so they don't get a break...except maybe on sound.

I'm also finding that people are specifying these new projectors, which don't cost all that much less, when you add everything up) to the detriment of the quality of the presentation. There is nothing new there though. In film, people often under-specified both picture and sound because it was cheaper. Since these exhibitors are footing the bill themselves, it is their business to decide the level of quality they want to provide or can afford.

The marketing people are in full-force on this too. Most of the light specifications on these new projectors presumes a 1.8 gain screen...which will never meet SMPTE/DCI specifications for light distribution (unless curved...which brings up its own geometric complications) and the odds that one installing the "value-priced" projector will also replace their current screen with a 1.8 (properly curved or not) is unrealistic.

The total cost of the installation goes beyond the mere projector too. What about the sound. Most installers have opted to merely put a D/A converter in and use the existing film processor...which creates a bottleneck in most cases...you leave the weak-link in the signal path and probably also leave a poorly done EQ done (many years ago) in place too. But it is the "cheapest" and fastest installation, right? Most of our installations have also included a new sound processor. The sound improvement has been substantial...to the point that our clients have made a point of commenting that they were not expecting the sound to be that much better but it really made an impression on them. We now have uncompressed, LPCM audio. Why cram that through some noisy processor designed for a completely different format and possibly value engineered too much? And lets face it, DCinema audio processors don't cost what film processors did either.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 03-11-2013, 01:22 PM:

FWIW: Our initial estimates are in the $60-100,000 range. It will depend on what we want to do and what we feel we can skip for now. And, of course, on how fundraising goes.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 03-11-2013, 09:13 PM:

Much like the 'studios take 90% of all ticket sales' line, don't expect the 'digital costs $100k per screen' line to go away anytime soon.

Posted by Andrew Thomas (Member # 7000) on 03-11-2013, 11:45 PM:

If you are at 30' or smaller, you are likely still looking at $40k before any other things that may be in need of upgrade to get going in D-Cinema. If you are even a hair over that 30' mark, you are probably going to be in need of a full size unit and so you're back into the high $40k/low $50k range for just projector/lens/server. If you need to change electrical, HVAC, etc. you can quickly run that number up.

Still, the $100,000/screen digital conversion is mythical for the VAST majority of cinemas.

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 03-12-2013, 12:25 AM:

Steve said

"Why cram that through some noisy processor designed for a completely different format and possibly value engineered too much?"

In your opinion,would that include or exclude the cp650?

thanks

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-12-2013, 04:10 AM:

The CP650 is on the fence. There is a means for a fully digital path...only that the CAT790 has been a problematic board with numerous cases of "Robosound" If you are going in via the 6-channel input (analog) with a D/A converter upstream...then you have an unnecessary D/A - A/D conversion in the path as well as a 6-channel limitation. If you don't have the CAT 790, the cost difference between updating a CP650 versus a new DCinema processor narrows.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 03-12-2013, 09:39 AM:

Though no longer supported, the CP65 and 500 have been rock solid. What is wrong with leaving them in place if the amps, speakers, and EQ are proper?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-12-2013, 10:24 AM:

How many cinemas still running only 35mm film are equipped with 5.1 surround? Doesn't the DCI spec require a 5.1 upgrade as part of a conversion from film to digital projection?

Sound has to figure in as an additional factor in why some theaters are choosing to close rather than convert. The last two theaters in my area showing film (the Sheridan Theater on Fort Sill and the Vaska Theater in the middle of Lawton) weren't equipped with any sort of surround sound, just speakers behind the screen.

While d-cinema DCPs carry significantly higher quality audio than the lossy compressed digital formats on 35mm film, I don't think very many theaters are doing their part to show off the quality differences. If a theater already had 5.1 surround the d-cinema system has been typically hooked into that existing system with hardly any sort of change.

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 03-12-2013, 11:31 AM:

I have a cat 790. What is Robosound?

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-12-2013, 01:49 PM:

Bob see THIS THREAD for a discussion on robosound.

So far, I have about 75 active sites with a CAT 790 and have yet to encounter any instances of robosound. Steve however has several (hundreds?) so his experience has a larger installed base. But how he defines "numerous cases" is subject to debate. I'd like to know what exact number out of all his installs (and how many installs he has done total) which actually had the problem. In other words, what is the exact percentage of installs that experienced the problem.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2013, 01:53 PM:

Tony, We have hundreds of systems connected to CP650s and to my knowledge, all of them have Robosound issues when connected digitally. Some firmware seems to be less susceptible than others and some cat790 cards seem less prone than others, but I don't have any definitive data as I've never had the time to track it down specifically.

This is why we prefer to go into the analog 6 channel input, as that input never has any issues.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-12-2013, 02:00 PM:

Thank you Brad.

I wonder why the installs I have done so far haven't had it crop up? Maybe because the home screening rooms don't grind out 4-6 shows a day?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2013, 04:52 PM:

Either that or you're just better than us.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 03-12-2013, 05:15 PM:

I don't want to jinx myself, but our 650 stopped misbehaving -- We may have replaced the digital I/O card -- I don't remember now.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 03-12-2013, 05:31 PM:

Talking about the Dolby 650, lets dump it and replace it with a horrible AP20, isn't that a good idea? (sorry, I really really really hate my AP20's because so far they sound horrible!!!)

When we opened we had 3 booths with 35mm combined with digital (the other 5 booths were just 35mm). The booths with digital projectors were running perfectly on a Dolby CP650, no extra boxes in the rack, no problems at all (combined with a Barco DP100 and DP90)

However, since we went completely digital all booths recieved an extra Doremi Aud D2A box (which we did not need before)

And when you compare the sound of the Ap20 to the Cp650 you realize why the CP650 is so much more expensive compared to the AP20. We have it in 2 booths and compared to the booths with the CP650 the AP20 is blown away every time. Sure the Ap20 has HDMI inputs but the Barco projectors send it these days directly to the CP's which allows you to dump a cable and save some money ;-).

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2013, 05:44 PM:

Joris, did the same tech calibrate the 650s as the AP20s?

I'll bet anything two different techs set those up and that is mostly what you are hearing. The tech performing the B-chain can kill the sound if he/she doesn't truly have the skills.

Posted by Joris Springer (Member # 4175) on 03-12-2013, 05:54 PM:

Well the person who set up the CP650 was one of the technicians from a different company who had a THX certificate but that was when we were running 35mm and in 3 booths combined digital. Once we went digital they were done by someone else however I dont know if it was the same person who also installed the AP20's, all I know is that you can hear a big difference in the booths with an AP20 and the once with a CP650 at the moment (again since the AP20's have already been replaced due to bad audio).