Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Is EX still relevant?

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Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 03-25-2013, 08:25 AM:

Are studios even mixing their 5.1 films with EX these days? Do you know theaters that still use Dolby EX or DTS ES decoding on their 5.1 soundtracks? The theater I go to doesn't have EX decoding on 5.1 soundtracks, even though their auditoriums have back surrounds. Nevertheless, the theater can play 7.1 sound in some screens, which I guess is the new standard for back-surround mixing.

I played back Argo in my home theater with EX decoding on, and the sound field was pretty much expanded, even though EX wasn't advertised for this film, as it was standard 5.1.

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 03-25-2013, 09:08 AM:

I don't think EX was ever relevant, and I don't see Atmos getting adopted to any standard that might qualify as "relevant" either.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 03-25-2013, 10:26 AM:

Our cinema is equipped for EX...but I couldn't tell you the last time we had a film encoded with it, if ever. And with most places going digital, I'd imagine they'll all be setup for either 5.1, 7.1, or something grander like Atmos.

Some films seem to be being mixed with 7.1 in mind, or at least, remixed for 7.1 at home while still 5.1 theatrically.

I for one see no need to have anything more than 5.1 in my home cinema: it's just too small for such a thing.

AJG

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-25-2013, 10:29 AM:

I think you'll find that "EX" is probably automixed from a 7.1 track much the same as Lt/Rt is from the 5.1 mix...when it comes to consumer audio. I can't say for certain if there are any honest-to-god EX mixes on film right now...that is, someone actually making a specific EX mix that was not derived from a 7.1 mix.

As to Atmos gaining relevancy, only time will tell. There are a fair number of movies being mixed in the format and there is some level of adoption by companies like AMC. Will it ever get beyond say "70mm" type penetration...only time will tell.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 03-25-2013, 10:41 AM:

The last film with an EX mix (that I am aware of) was Cars 2 in 2011. I think the rise of discrete 7.1 for D-Cinema has pretty much killed any interest in a matrixed 6.1.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 03-25-2013, 01:35 PM:

I am fairly certain Disney still used EX for some of the animated features. I am pretty sure I saw a Dolby EX tag at the end of reel 6 on the Brave, or something....

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 03-25-2013, 02:23 PM:

What about SDDS 8? How was SDDS 8 tracks mixed compared to the current Dolby 7.1?

-Claude

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 03-25-2013, 02:57 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I am pretty sure I saw a Dolby EX tag at the end of reel 6 on the Brave, or something....

I wouldn't take the end credits of the film as written in stone to final sound formats. I've seen many titles were the format was wrong and they used the wrong format logo. There was afew films still being released with the DTS logo long after the change to the new one.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-25-2013, 03:11 PM:

quote: Claude S. Ayakawa
What about SDDS 8? How was SDDS 8 tracks mixed compared to the current Dolby 7.1?

SDDS-8 is different than current 7.1 configurations for home theater and d-cinema. SDDS allowed for the use of 5 stage channels, 2 surround channels and a sub-bass channel.

7.1 audio on Blu-ray (LPCM, DTS-HD, Dolby TrueHD) and Linear PCM 7.1 in d-cinema uses four surround channels divided into side wall and back wall quadrants rather than just the stereo surround layout of 5.1. The 7.1 formats on Blu-ray and d-cinema still maintain 3 stage channels and 1 sub-bass channel.

I think it's screwy for 7.1 audio in d-cinema to be branded as a Dolby process. It's just Linear PCM 7.1 audio. It doesn't require any Dolby-branded hardware to play.

D-cinema, at least in terms of specifications, allows for the use of more channels. But the theater would need the appropriate hardware and audio "software" to play movie sound mixes with 9 to 12 discrete audio tracks (or even more tracks, up to 16, when including special purpose audio channels).

quote: Steve Guttag
As to Atmos gaining relevancy, only time will tell. There are a fair number of movies being mixed in the format and there is some level of adoption by companies like AMC.

For Atmos to really gain relevancy as the top theater audio format three things must happen. 1: lots of hit movies need to be mixed in the format, 2: lots of theaters need to install the hardware, 3: theaters must deploy more than merely basic configurations of Atmos.

There's a LOT of lee-way on how great or lame a theater operator can make a Dolby Atmos installation. It they do the bare minimum just to get the logo into ads then the sound process isn't going to impress anyone above what can be heard with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 channel configuration. If they put a lot more work (and money) into an Atmos installation the difference will be more noticeable.

quote: Daniel Schulz
I think the rise of discrete 7.1 for D-Cinema has pretty much killed any interest in a matrixed 6.1.

The only places where matrixed Dolby EX 5.1 has any relevance is in low bandwidth sources of video entertainment. Lots of people are still buying DVDs even though Blu-ray is arguably a mature product. Movie streaming via the Internet doesn't really support high bit rate audio. It's pretty much lossy Dolby Digital or in some cases Dolby Digital Plus. I thought I saw a blurb somewhere that Vudu or Ultraviolet would support data lossy version of DTS. But I don't know that for certain since I don't rent movies via download/streaming services.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-26-2013, 02:03 AM:

Originally released with Star Wars Episode 1, just like the movie, the force was always weak with this one. I just don't remember any EX mixed movie, where EX really made any noticeable difference. Beyond that, pushing an additional, matrix encoded channel into an already heavily compressed audio stream is really pushing it.

Yet, it helped Dolby to push a boatload of those SA10 boxes, JBL & co. a whole bunch of extra surround speakers and QSC & others a bunch of new amps. THX, a noticeable co-inventor, probably sold a bunch of re-certifications alongside the upgrades too.

quote: Bobby Henderson
D-cinema, at least in terms of specifications, allows for the use of more channels. But the theater would need the appropriate hardware and audio "software" to play movie sound mixes with 9 to 12 discrete audio tracks (or even more tracks, up to 16, when including special purpose audio channels).

The problem with this is, that there seems to be no real consensus about the mapping of those additional channels. So, releasing a movie in 11.1 LPCM surround doesn't really make any sense those days.

quote: Bobby Henderson
There's a LOT of lee-way on how great or lame a theater operator can make a Dolby Atmos installation. It they do the bare minimum just to get the logo into ads then the sound process isn't going to impress anyone above what can be heard with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 channel configuration. If they put a lot more work (and money) into an Atmos installation the difference will be more noticeable.

I guess there is still some room for some kind of cinema audio certification, especially after THX went down the drain years ago [Wink]

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-26-2013, 09:13 AM:

THX is actually still around, although it's not nearly as relevant as it used to be thanks to some self-inflicted wounds. I visit a pretty nice theater in Moore, OK from time to time that has THX certification in every house, except for its LieMAX auditorium. The original concept behind THX certification is still 100% absolutely valid. No other independent organization exists to measure theater presentation quality and uphold certain quality standards. Generally speaking it's clear theater chains can't be trusted to police themselves when it comes to maintaining high audio quality standards.

As to D-cinema and audio channel mapping, the official spec punts over to using "SMPTE 428-3: D-Cinema Distribution Master Audio Channel Mapping and Channel Labeling" of which SMPTE doesn't really get all that specific. However, there is some general agreement between various groups, including one called 31FS-10 Working Group on MXF Multichannel Audio, on 16 primary audio channels for d-cinema:

1. Left (L)
2. Right (R)
3. Center (C)
4. LFE (Subwoofer)
5. Left Surround (LS)
6. Right Surround (RS)
7. Left Center (LC) -classic 70mm, SDDS 7.1
8. Right Center (RC) -classic 70mm, SDDS 7.1
9. Left Rear Surround (LRS) -new 7.1
10. Right Rear Surround (RRS) -new 7.1
11. Center Surround (CS) Dolby 6.1/EX
12. Center Ceiling -Dolby Proposed
13. Hearing Impaired Language
14. Visually Impaired Narrative Language 1
15. Hearing Impaired Language 2
16. Visually Impaired Narrative Language 2

The full D-cinema specification actually allows up to 26 or 28 channels of audio if multiple languages were to be put into a single DCP. Media blocks, cinema processors, etc. put a lot of limitations into how many channels of audio can be played.

At the very least 9.1 channel audio in d-cinema should be very feasible. That would be a combination of the "5 up front" channel layout of classic 70mm and the quad-surround layout of current 7.1 in d-cinema and Blu-ray.

Dolby has tried to reign in the organizational mess going on with channel mapping in d-cinema. Perhaps going it on their own with Atmos is a way to get around all the other groups that seem unable or unwilling to make up their minds and agree on some standards.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Originally released with Star Wars Episode 1, just like the movie, the force was always weak with this one. I just don't remember any EX mixed movie, where EX really made any noticeable difference.

EX wasn't much of a success in commercial theater for various reasons. Many theater operators didn't see the benefit of it above standard 5.1. Not all that many movies were specifically mixed for Dolby EX. And quite a few movies were released in theaters with standard 5.1 audio tracks but embellished further with EX exclusively for home theater.

As it stands Dolby and DTS now mean a lot more for home theater (and Blu-ray in particular) than they do in commercial cinema applications. With film-based theaters rapidly disappearing I don't know why movie studios continue to put the Dolby, Datasat and SDDS logos on movie posters and end credits. Eventually they're going to drop those brands from movie marketing. Dolby might be able to keep its name on movie posters and end credits with Atmos.

Posted by Marc D Fishman (Member # 6992) on 03-26-2013, 10:43 AM:

Bobby...

5 screen channels is making a comeback with ATMOS.... the bed configuration is 10 channels (LCR, LS, RS, LBS, RBS and OH L and R...)

The LE RE screen channels can be accessed via objects.

I am seeing a great deal of studio support for ATMOS, much more so than EX/ES... Fox is doing almost all of their films, WB and Disney are fully behind it, etc.

I am actually going to do my first Atmos mix next week...

SMPTE is also busy re-evaluating the standards and practices for sound reproduction... so there is a lot of interest and chatter going on in relation to this subject right now..

I expect (and hope) we see close to 400 domestic Atmos installs before the end of year.. that number is my guess only.