Sorry, that should have been '...and 16-235 when set to YCbCr.'
Marco, I forgot that with the 515 now I have excellent tools to check it. Will get back about this. It's a bit annoying that the DLPs are so 'vague' there indeed.
- Carsten
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2013, 10:37 AM:
Just checked in at the theater. It is a BDP-S590
I have already turned Deep Color to OFF.
I have set sampling to 4:2:2.
Have not checked firmware updates to the player or the Gefen.
Neither one of those have connection to the Internet. Will have to work on that.
How does one check the firmware version on the Gefen?
Can you hit a button on the front panel to make it read out on the display or does it have to be done through the network connection?
Will have my boss bring a Blu-Ray from home when he comes in, this afternoon, in order to test progress so far.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-05-2013, 10:55 AM:
Carsten,
I am quite confident that is not the case for most of the available BD players. As said, I eventually got in touch with Sony and they confirmed that. But I'll check again. You've got aPM ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Steve,
If I did my job following what the customer would be happy with, I think I wouldn't bother upgrading those Gefen with swapped LFE/Centre channels! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Randy,
press the MENU button and then the RIGHT button until you see the Firmware version.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2013, 11:25 AM:
Gefen FW = 3.25
I bet the firmware on the player needs an update but will have to wait until in can string a temporary cable over there in order to do it.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-05-2013, 01:47 PM:
Does the BD player allow firmware updates by burning the new firmware onto a CD and sticking that in the machine? The Denon player in our booth has this function as a way round the problem of the machine being installed in a rack that doesn't have an Internet connection within convenient range. It's a pain in the bum, because you have to enter the serial number of the machine into Denon's website and jump through a number of verification hoops before you get your hands on the ISO (presumably this is to prevent you from trying to region hack the thing by installing another region's firmware), but it can be done.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-05-2013, 01:51 PM:
Guess it's easier now to just bring the player near a plain vanilla internet router with DHCP temporarily.
- Carsten
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-05-2013, 01:56 PM:
Easier and safer I'd say, you don't risk to burn the wrong FW! Takes a few minutes.
Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 05-05-2013, 02:09 PM:
That is presumably another reason why Denon's site requires you to enter the serial number of the actual player before it'll let you download a firmware for offline updating (to prevent you installing the wrong one, either accidentally or in an attempt to region hack it).
In my case, online updating would be impossible without very major hassles. Even if I got the player within range of an ethernet socket, the network in the university in which it is situated requires non-standard IP, DNS and subnet settings, plus the mac address of the client to be pre-authorised by IT Services before a connection is possible. At least one of those settings can't be changed in the player's config options (I forget which one, but I did investigate before updating offline), meaning that the only way I'd be able to update it online would be to remove it from the rack and take it home.
I guess in Randy's case it depends on (a) whether it can be brought within easy range of an ethernet socket, (b) whether a connection to the Internet can be established without changing settings that the player doesn't let you change, and (c) if it's possible, and if so how easy it is to download the firmware for offline burning.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-05-2013, 04:42 PM:
It's just a small player. Why not take it home after work and bring it back next day after the update has been done on your home network?
Some businesses may not allow this kind of pragmatism, but then again, it's their problem if the gear is not working and their problem to supply the necessary tools to keep it running.
- Carsten
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2013, 06:34 PM:
I have a long ethernet cable at home. I'll take it with me when I go to work tomorrow. It shouldn't be too hard to plug it in.
The place is run by the State of Pennsylvania. We are the sole contractors in charge of running the theater, letting the state avoid having to be in the movie business. The computer networks are a bit funky because of this relationship but I think I can make it work. If the "main" network doesn't work, I can hook into the Regional Science Consortium's network, which also contracts space in the building.
If all else fails, I'll take the player home and do it through my DSL connection.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-05-2013, 09:57 PM:
The S590 can upgrade WiFi if that is available.
There are degrees of what would be deemed acceptable by a large quantity of patrons/customers. Getting the Gamma and such exactly right for the bulk of people will not yield any additional satisfaction to them (maybe to you). Now, I've done studio screenings where I've had to change things to suit their needs...that is a different story.
Doing things right is often expensive...which there is always someone out there that will tell you/your customer that there is no need to spend the money...it looks just fine. Look at the popularity of the Gefen scaler...as scalers go, it is not great shakes...you can't get proper aspect ratios...I believe it puts the image off center too. However, people that use them love them...pointing out its flaws would only annoy them.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-05-2013, 10:51 PM:
Hmmm... I might be able to get onto the Science Consortium's WiFi from the booth. I know the password. (Permission to use it.) If the radio reaches that far, it might do the trick.
About quality, I'm a "9." One should try to do as well as he can but not to the point of killing himself. Unless you are in a mission-critical situation like a screening room, the utility of taking extraordinary measures isn't worth the trouble and expense. Once you get above a certain level, the gain in quality becomes small but the costs become greater. It's often better just to say, "Good enough." (That assumes you are not just copping out because you're too lazy to fix things right.)
For customers, most would probably rate a "5" as good enough. Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I have talked to people and pointed out things that, to me, are glaringly obvious but, to them would go unnoticed unless they are spelled out. About a third of those people still can't see the problem even after it is pointed out.
So, going half way between those numbers, I figure a "7" is good enough.
In my opinion, the difference between 4:4:4 sampling and 4:2:2 is like trying to discern a 1dB gain change in a sound system. It's something you can see if you are looking for it but, otherwise, will probably go unnoticed.
Making that small of a change in order to prevent the picture dropping out is worth the sacrifice.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-06-2013, 04:56 AM:
Steve,
As always, it's a matter of compromising where you choose the best final result considering the money available and the time available.
But I usually do not follow the path of "the customer won't bother about it", that would lead to the dark side of my job! I'm not saying you do Steve, it's just for conversation's sake.
I find the wrong black level very annoying and I have been trying to find a permanent solution ever since. I am much more happy with the stuttering introduced by the Barco ACS which is uncapable of 24p rather than the greyish blacks.
That's why I have been looking for a cheap player capable of Full RGB levels or any suitable option.
That said, I would not suggest anybody to spend a fortune on a player just to have the proper RGB levels/framerate unless - as you say - it's something the customer is looking for.
Looking forward to tinkering with the TI sw to see if you can properly dial the RGB levels then!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-06-2013, 05:38 AM:
The ACS2048 should be able to handle 24P...and it should show it as 24p on its faceplate.
I find the jutter to be more annoying than the black levels...which can often be dialed in via the player, projector.
The ACS2048 is not a perfect scaler, for sure...it can get aspect ratios correct however. The ACS is getting a bit old for scaler designs. Barco has the ImageProII HD...which is about 3-4 times as expensive. There are also decent scalers from Analog Way too (and I'm sure others). Getting aspect ratios correct is a big one for me. I don't like zooming the lens that much either...it is a waste of light and each preset for the lens is a potential for misalignment and bad focus...particularly over time.
One reason I do advocate the basic BluRay to projector connection is that it greatly simplifies the whole set up for the layperson and costs the least and gets zero complaints.
As I said before, getting thing right generally costs money (more than most are willing to spend) and most customers are not willing to spend the extra dough to put a BluRay on screen...especially if they just bought the BluRay player itself for about $100.00.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-06-2013, 06:45 AM:
The ACS does support 24p input indeed. Unfortunately it does not support 24Hz output - only 50 and 60!
Barco ACS2048 specs
As said, I still have to find a cheap player which supports 0-255 levels. I came across a couple but they were obsolete and/or expensive. I will check what Carsten suggested but I think I already tried all the possible settings at the time. I will also check the TI settings, as you suggest.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 05-06-2013, 08:45 AM:
BTW: The reason we have the Gefen scaler is because it also acts as a switch.
There is a computer in the booth that plays the pre-show ads and is sometimes used when there are presentations or lectures in the theater. There is a second computer input in the theater which is used for presentations. Also, there is a video camera in the theater. It was installed to do I-Mag but I have never seen it used.
Regardless of whether we use them a lot or not, all these input devices have to be functional just in case somebody wants to use them.
That's why we have the scaler. If it was up to me, I would have just connected the Blu-Ray directly to the projector.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-06-2013, 02:37 PM:
Turn that frown upside down, you man!
The ACS has added output rates on the latest firmware...
NEW FEATURES
- Added the following supported output formats:
1920x1080p @24
1920x1080p @25
1920x1080p @50
1920x1080p @59.94
1920x1080p @60
Now it would be nice if they had 2048x1080@24 too.
They also gave another whack at the HDCP thing.
Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-06-2013, 02:43 PM:
Nice!
I missed that notification, probably because it's not a "cinema" product? The firmware is only 4 days old!
Great news thanks Steve, I think you must have some kind of connection to a Borg collectivity to be so up-to-date!
That solves my problems almost 100%: I can correct the levels and I have 24p. (But I will still look into what you said)!
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-06-2013, 04:24 PM:
The ACS2048 is exclusively cinema product. The pro side uses ImagePros.
Barco has not issued the announcement in their email blitz but it showed up on the "new" list when I was looking for something else. Pure coincidence.
Now I'm wondering when they are going to go to Enigma 1.7...everyone else has and none of them have any good Release Notes to tell what 1.7 does beyond what 1.6 did.
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-09-2013, 11:33 AM:
Just an update:
I performed a firmware update on the player then went through all the settings panel and shut off all of the "enhanced" settings. "Deep Bit" color and color sampling were both turned off or to their minimum settings.
We ran a Blu-Ray disk for about an hour, the other day, and it played without any hiccups.
Our late night movie series starts next week so, cross my fingers, I think the problem is fixed.
Thanks for all the advice!
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-22-2013, 11:25 AM:
Just found out... The picture is still blacking out. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
It happens on some disks but not others. That's why I thought I had it solved.
Played a movie on Blu-Ray last weekend. It blacked out three times & we got complaints.
Also looked over the hookup, just now.
Player is connected to the Gefen scaler.
Scaler goes to a Black Box splitter.
Black Box splits the signal to a LCD display and to the projector.
I am guessing that the trouble might be in the Black Box. ???
Noticed that the LCD screen does not black out when the problem happens.
I am also suggesting we get a better player such as Oppo.
Will see about bypassing the splitter and/or going direct to project as a test.
(As time permits.)
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-22-2013, 03:21 PM:
Maybe there is really just too much gear in between player and projector to ensure smooth operation incl. HDCP.
Maybe it's just the combination of exactly these components, and another splitter or monitor could solve the problem.
Splitters can solve problems, or create them.
- Carsten
Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 10-25-2013, 03:17 PM:
Took the device out of line and is seems to be working.
Ran a movie on blu ray for about 30 min. and it worked.
It was a Disney movie (Super Buddies) so, if it is a problem with the way Mouse House encodes their disks it should show up. Right?
What about DVI versus HDMI?
The player is HDMI.
The Geffen is DVI.
The splitter and the line to the projector are both DVI, too.
Could that change from HDMI to DVI be part of the problem?
Isn't HDMI encrypted (or encryption capable) and DVI is not?
Could the change from encrypted to not encrypted have anything to do with it?
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-25-2013, 03:26 PM:
It could be these devices in that specific combination, but not strictly DVI vs. HDMI. The physical signals are identical for both, and usually DVI has no trouble to passthrough HDCP. Yet the blacking out COULD be due to HDCP issues. It's stupid, but I think there is no rational way to solve this other than trial and error, replacing gear one by one.
- Carsten
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-26-2013, 03:02 PM:
I think if you suspect HDCP issues you should check with content that has no HDCP run through the player. Like burn your own blu-ray disc that is sufficiently long. If it doesn't reproduce then you know it's an HDCP issue and the quickest/easiest route would be, instead of buying new equipment one-by-one, just get a blu-ray ripper for your computer, rip the content, and then burn a new blu-ray disc that is unencrypted.
Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 10-27-2013, 11:09 AM:
Blacking out after 20 minutes sounds like a Cinavia problem, you might need to find an older bluray player
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 11-20-2015, 06:42 PM:
It has been 754 days since the last post.
Posted by Jeff Ragland (Member # 9167) on 11-20-2015, 06:42 PM:
I want to say thank you to Joe Redifer for your solution of turning off the HDMI control using a Sony BD player it worked...Since May of 2014 my 4K Tv would black out a few times while watching a Blu-Ray movie my TV manufacturer replaced my set but the problem still remained tried another Sony BD player still blacked out...I tried all the other suggestions from another fourm like change 4:4:4 4:2:2 deep color HDMI cables ect ect still it blacked out...Then i came across this fourm two weeks ago and seen your solution now 18 Blu-Ray movies later and no more blacking out...Thanks to you Joe Redifer ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-20-2015, 06:55 PM:
I believe i it is called something like CEC where various devices control each other. Hadn't heard it causing problems before but I'll be on the lookout for it now.
Thanks.