Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dafuq? (aka unimpressed with Ballantyne / Strong)

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Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 03:51 PM:

Right now, I am a rather annoyed cinema manager.
The cinema I manage has just one screen, and we converted from running changeovers with 2k reels, to running a Barco DP2K-10Sx, with a Doremi server, in the first week of April this year.
With only one screen, the owner of the cinema felt it would be murder for us to be closed for more than one day for our digital installation. As such, he spent quite a bit of time contacting many different people before deciding to work with Ballantyne/Strong for the purchase, installation, and service of our new gear. After that decision was settled, a lot of effort was made to coordinate all the details, so that in theory, the installation process would be smooth.

So much for that theory. All the equipment was supposed to be delivered day of installation (4/2), late in the morning/early in the afternoon. The base, and the server, and the temporary lens (the correct one was on back order), all arrived in the expected window. Since the projector itself was not delivered at the same time, we were very concerned, and immediately tried to find out where it was. Apparently, it was on its way to either Minnesota or Michigan, I don't quite recall. [Confused]

So, after some frantic phone calls, we were assured that a projector would be arriving later in the day. Around 7PM, it did arrive. Labels on the carton lead us to conclude that it had been sent up from a cinema in Alabama. However, we couldn't complete the install that evening, the IMB was missing. More frantic phone calls ensued. We were assured it would arrive in the morning.

So, yes, the part arrived the next morning, and all was ready to run by the time we needed to be open for the day. However, we did not use the new machine for the feature we were playing that week - it had been playing off a BluRay fed through the video projector we've been using for our pre-show ads. We ran our first feature digitally, beginning that Friday (4/5), and all ran as hoped.

Fast forward a few weeks. We got erroneously got sent an invoice, for all the gear we had installed. A few phone calls got that sorted out, as they had in fact, already been paid for the equipment, and installation. However, on the original estimate, the shipping charge was simply listed as 'to be determined'.

Shortly after that, we got a bill for the shipping, and were astounded by it, as it was nearly $1800. We have asked to be shown the shipping manifest, and that request has been refused.
That battle continues, as we are not unwilling to pay the correct amount, but really feel as though we are being taken for a ride.

Amid all this back-and-forth over erroneous invoices, and battling inflated freight charges, our back ordered lens arrived, and we had a feature that contained some subtitles (the Reluctant Fundamentalist) for the first time with the new gear. However, we were not immediately aware that there were supposed to be subtitles with that feature, as we had assumed that our equipment had been fully setup for us. We received an email from a customer that was irritated that we had "turned the subtitles off" - which was not the case. After some emails, and frantic phone calls, we discovered that our tech was oblivious to what might need to be done to make the subtitles appear on screen. Curiously, the fellow that used to service our 35mm machines knew what needed to be done, which we found out purely by chance. The next snag we ran into was needing the Admin password for the server, which was unknown to us at that point, and it practically took an act of Congress to get it, but we did, and took care of the issue. Our tech also got the lens installed for us, but we were given the impression that Strong didn't want him to do anything for us.

Now, our setup did not include a screen for the diagnostics of the status of the projector, only a 'tail light' indicator. This past weekend, it turned blue, rather than green. I checked the manual, and realized that while there was probably no need to panic, I had no real way to know for sure what maintenance action it wants. So on Sunday, I acquired a laptop, and loaded Barco's 'Communicator' software on it, but still don't know what action is needed.
Yesterday, I got a message from my boss. Apparently just trying to to communicate with the server befouled the configuration, and it took half an hour to reset it.
Today, I sent a message asking if the problems had been sorted out. The answer I got was effectively "yes . . . and no". My boss doesn't think our tech will be back out to reset it, or order new filters (our guess as the likeliest cause of the alert). I was also told "he can't say, but I think his company won't let him. Very illegal as I have a service contract." [uhoh]

Because of the matter of not violating the warranty, our tech has to be the one to reset it.
[Mad]

If you've made it through my grousing, and have any words of wisdom to offer, by all means, please do.

I'm feeling just about [evil]

enough to go deliver some swift kicks to some hindquarters.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 06-18-2013, 04:14 PM:

Not sure in your situation, but over here on our VPF with DCInex it was confirmed to me in writing that resetting "maintenance alerts" on the projector does not in any way constitute voiding the warranty. In fact it would be a massive waste of money having to pay for service calls just to reset them once you have done the maintenance.

In the communicator software you don't even have to be logged in to reset them..just connecting to the projector as the default user is enough. that, and the fact in the barco software it clearly states that type A + B maintenance "trained projectionists" are permitted to do it.

Who holds the warranty for the projector? Strong, Barco, or some other company?

not sure on your model must most barco's now like our baby DP2k-12c have user cleanable filters, they don't need replacing until they get broken (they are a fine wire mesh that I suppose could get corroded if washed incorrectly or the mesh gets punctured)

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 04:28 PM:

We looked into the correct procedure for cleaning the filers; and it require allowing them to dry for 24 hours. Without having a spare set, we don't have the needed time to wash them properly, and allow them to dry.

I'm not sure who hold the warranty.

I also have not been thoroughly trained in all the software that is associated with the projector. I am able to use the server for the usual operations, ingesting data, show builds, scheduling and whatnot, however, was not shown anything to do with the configuration settings.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 06-18-2013, 04:32 PM:

did you buy the projector and server outright or are you on a finance / vpf plan?

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 04:33 PM:

Didn't do the VPF, and did not finance through the company that sold us the gear.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 06-18-2013, 04:37 PM:

Sounds like a weirdly limiting service "plan" to me if they wont even let you, or train you how to clear maintenance tasks on a projector you own.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 04:51 PM:

Since they are refusing to show us the shipping manifest, we have concluded that they are concealing something.
Hence, it seems that they are being obnoxious because we haven't backed down on wanting to see it.
We don't wish to be over-charged.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-18-2013, 05:36 PM:

The Barco 10s has paper filters that look pretty much the same as Christie filters, but Barco says to wash them and allow them to dry: instructions are in the manual. Using them while a bit damp is maybe OK and the airflow would complete the drying quickly, but they should be dry before use. Barco also recommends getting a spare set if the schedule doesn't allow drying time. This is a new model though, and the installer may have never seen one before.
Connecting to the projector using Communicator shouldn't cause any trouble at all, and never has in the many hundreds of times I've done it.
You may have done something unusual - I assume you have a Doremi server since Barco has been supplying them pending the IMS being ready to ship. With an IMB server there are a bunch of situations that need a reboot of the server, projector, or both that don't apply to a server using an onboard media block.
Obviously your training was incomplete. You should have all the passwords required, admin level is not a top secret, I would hesitate in passing out the root password - I'd want a good reason and confidence that the person using it could handle whatever they wanted to do.
I don't understand the subtitle problem. If you used an OCAP version then only a badly adjusted lens could be the problem (or you are forcing a lot of masking by demanding a full screen image in both formats without any movable masking... seriously - this happens). There have been problems getting shorter lenses but you said the correct lens had arrived and been installed. Using a CCAP version it's a bit tricky to get the captions working but hardly rocket science, I go over it in training but using CCAP captions is unusual here, if someone wants to do it they call for help.
You should definitely have the service technician password for Communicator, and the admin password for the server.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-18-2013, 05:42 PM:

I can't offer any advice, all I can do is empathize. I think it is pretty much a given that no digital installation will ever go perfectly.

But for you to not even have passwords to get into your equipment, when you're not on a VPF, sounds pretty ludicrous.

I also think many, many companies use "shipping charges" as a profit center.

I wonder what the problem is with lenses. I remember multiple stories here about the lens not showing up, or the wrong lens showed up or whatever. Even in our own installation here, the lens didn't show up and we had to overnight it in. Other than that problem, the Strong people have worked well with us. I think this is partly due to us having a good tech who has a good relationship with them.

I think it's so goofy for these $50,000 machines to be relying on blinking lights to convey a message. Why not have something show up on the little screen on the machine? (And have it be something that makes sense, not just "ERROR 127" or some crap like that.)

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 05:51 PM:

The subtitle issue was resolved. I'm not sure exactly of the specifics of it, as it was brought to our attention, and then resolved, on my days off. However, I do know that it wasn't a matter of the masking, or the lens, it was something with the server.
The owner of the cinema, and I both now have the admin password for the server.
The communicator software is something with which neither of us are yet familiar. When it comes right down to it, there won't be much point in showing my boss how to work it, as he is a self-proclaimed Luddite with a vast array of new technology. We only now have the communicator software because two days ago I downloaded it onto an inexpensive laptop purchased for the express purpose of being our diagnostic interface.

Several times throughout the training, we were assured that there would actually be very little we would need to deal with ourselves in regard to keeping the machine running properly, rather than teaching us anything about how to handle the mundane / routine maintenance.

As I indicated previously, I am not impressed. It really seems like we are being deliberately [sex]

Posted by Tony Mace (Member # 2985) on 06-18-2013, 07:24 PM:

If you have/get Barco's touch screen that plugs directly into the projectors - it looks almost EXACTLY like the communicator software that runs on a laptop/desktop.

I reset Maint A/B all the time here when cleaning filters. And apparently they didn't instruct you on how to change a lamp when the time comes and the communicator software is used for that as well.

Don't call a service tech to change you lamp - waste of $$

Tony

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-18-2013, 07:48 PM:

Well, whoever told you you have no need to communicate with the projector was wrong. The tail light turns blue to remind you about maintenance needed, and the only way to find out what's needed and to turn the blue light off, is through communicator. It also turns blue/amber when a lamp change is due/late: you need communicator to install the lamp (tell the projector what lamp is in it) and to reset the hour counter.
If you get a red tail light you will want to use communicator to get an idea of what's wrong.
If there's a problem you will almost always have to send in diagnostic logs from the server and/or projector - you use communicator to get the projector logs.
Check that your installer was Barco trained/certified. If they screwed up something serious (with damage resulting) and aren't, the warranty may be void.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-18-2013, 09:25 PM:

My boss had been considering getting the touchscreen to plug right into the projector, but was not eager to rush that purchase, as it is rather pricey. The laptop I picked up cost just under a third of what the touchscreen would have cost.

Now I am willing to admit that I didn't have the best mechanical know-how for repairing problems with the assorted 35mm machines I had worked with over the years, but I was able to keep up with routine maintenance.
I expect to be able to keep up with routine maintenance with the digital machine too, provided I have access to the right tools, and instruction in what to expect, and how to handle it.

I intend to revisit the manuals we have, as well as dig up other relevant information from reliable sources.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-20-2013, 09:58 AM:

Was the shipping charge you mentioned for everything or just the projector itself? I don't know what a dlp like that should ship for but I can tell you shipping in and of itself is crazy expensive. I have bought auto parts online (bumper covers, fenders, etc.) and paid 2 to 3 times the cost of the part in shipping.

Who shipped the projector to you Barco or Strong?

I would not post it publicly but if you want to email or PM me the tech who did the install I am curious as I used to know the local techs for the new england area from NCS/Strong and they were all very competent and very professional.

I will say that from my experience (I am not saying this happened in your case) theatre owners will bargain the price of an install down to the bare bones by eliminating certain things (like training time, extra alignment time, etc...) and then blame the tech or service company with the staff without mentioning that they negotiated away everything but the basic minimum.

I have worked on installs where the theatre owner never paid for a previous install and told the service company "If you don't do this new install we won't pay you for the last one" this particular person then bought all used ORC equipment (nsp 3000 platters, vertical lamphouses, orc automations, orc era century projector heads etc...) All of this equipment arrived in mostly non working order so we had to repair/rebuild a lot of it on site. The 45 degree mirrors were garbage and the owner refused to replace them I could go on and on and of course we got it running and open on time (even though the electricians were way behind, I remember going out and buying a greenlee knockout kit so we could wire stuff ourselves...) As I remember this was the install where the theatre owner had the electricians run all SOLID wire for the speaker runs because it was cheaper.

What was the end result of all the extra hours, the night spent in hotel rooms to get the job done even though by this time we were losing money on the job? Of course all said and done it was the service companies fault that certain things were not perfect and of course the theatre owner then turned around and refused to pay for the install because he wasn't "happy"

Of course part of the blame lies with the service company for allowing themselves to be blackmailed and for agreeing to underbid the job but theatre owners also tend to go with the lowest bidder and have unrealistic expectations, I am not saying this is what happened in your case.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-20-2013, 10:59 AM:

When I got my digital equipment, a friend of mine drove his truck and a U-Haul trailer from here to Edmonton (545 miles each way) to pick up the equipment and bring it here. It was much cheaper to do that than it would have been to get it shipped here.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 06-20-2013, 01:14 PM:

I want to chime in here:

/RANT ON

The root problem lies in that fact that most (not all) companies that are selling the digital equipment to the independent theatres - are just selling equipment, period. Obviously some offer installation, etc. But if you are buying equipment from a company located in Omaha, Nebraska, and your theatre is located in New England - there are going to be logistical issues - whether it be in shipping, communication, and all that fine print in the paperwork that some people don't read.

My point is: A lot of "Independents" are getting burned on their digital conversions (hidden shipping charges, unknown installation problems, PROPER TRAINING, etc.)Everything you have mentioned in your original post are issues that I have heard before (some experiences were worse than yours). I personally have spent the last, uh, 11 months cleaning up after a bad installs across 10 different theatre locations up and down the East Coast. Problems all over the board - faulty equipment, bad network set ups, equipment not properly aligned - the list goes on and on. All because some dude jumped on the "digital gravy train", made a few deals with some equipment manufacturers, and went across the U.S. slamming equipment in at mostly independent theatres - who are now 'hung out to dry' when it comes to the daily operation of their stuff.

So welcome to the club. Oh, and if you think the major chains got off the hook on all this Digital B.S. - Wrong! They purchased bad equipment from the beginning, just maybe installed correctly though.

Just wait a few more years - when it all starts going to crap - and we all got Series 2 projectors - and they are out there selling series 6 and 7 projectors. Betcha we'll have to pay for those upgrades, dearly.

/RANT OFF

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-20-2013, 05:29 PM:

Ok i will chime in Strong used to be a manufacturer now is basically nothing more than a dealer/reseller as they make nothing and compete with what was in fact other dealers/service companies
In many ways one gets what they pay for often the lowest price doesnt include the value added engineering work that the local cinema equipment dealer would have provided
We have taken maybe a unprofitable hi road in that if a theatre goes out and buys direct or from another dealer then it isn't my problem to service them or make it work one does choose who's bed one sleeps in all that rant said since strong is no nothing more than the largest equipment dealer then they are on the hook but i would not have accepted a quote unless it was FOB theatre

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-20-2013, 06:26 PM:

This is where Film-Tech's approach to digital cinema is radically different than every other company out there. Sure we can sell you a similar package like you could find anywhere, install it, train and then wave goodbye like everyone else, but that isn't where we really shine. What we do that nobody else in the world does is manufacture and sell an entire fully automated solution, an I mean that quite literally.

Literally, we take responsibility for your getting your content to your site, loaded onto your players, playlists, chasing down and validating KDMs and so forth...every...single...week. It is all wrapped around the most logical energy management system that exists too.

In other words, we aren't "box movers" like your experience with Strong. We don't just sell, install and disappear (or perhaps hang around for servicing). We are there every day, every show for you...for the long haul.

Like Dennis, I've heard this type of story so often it's well past the point of sad. It unfortunately doesn't stop where you are now. Once you have your first failure, just how long will it take for your NOC to answer the phone? How long will it take for them to get a tech out to your site to repair? How much is that hourly "travel time" and other various service call expenses? How many shows did you lose? And how often do you actually get a tech on the phone or on site that knows how the system is wired, configured? Odds are you will see a different face most of the time who is walking into the building cold.

Sorry to hear of your bad news Gracia. Grab onto something because you're bound to have a bumpy ride in your future. This is just what happens when you buy from a Wal-Mart sized box mover dealer. It's like I tell everyone, don't trust a salesman...EVER (and yes that includes my own sales people). Be sure to do the math all the way down the road into the future. While price is important, it is what it COSTS you that should be the real decision-maker.

And by the way, resetting the maintenance in a Barco IN NO WAY voids your warranty. That's somebody at Strong trying to FORCE you into using them as your service company or something.

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-20-2013, 09:30 PM:

Well, it seems that a lot of the weird stuff happens on my days off, and I do work for someone who really is a good employer, he just happens to always jump to the worst possible conclusions. I do now know a little bit more now about the snags we've had getting in touch with our tech.
For the entire time we were running film, if an issue came up that was beyond my capabilities to resolve, we called our tech directly, being that he worked indepently of any service companies. So, my boss was not expecting the procedure to be: call the service company, they call the tech, tech calls the cinema. Nobody had made that clear to him until after I saw some emails in cinema's inbox, which clarified the matter for me, so I clarified it for him. I figured I had not gotten all the details, and was right there. So, I am less annoyed now with the service end of this whole tale.

I am mystified by the amount of time that lapsed before we were given the number to call for service. [Roll Eyes]

I realize that all the 'big picture' aspects of running the cinema are under the purview of the owner, however, I feel that he might need to run more details by me. I do have more years of experience in the cinema biz, especially in terms of all the day to day operations, which has given me some insight that could have helped to avoid some of the headaches.

As for possibly skimping out on the whole installation process, I don't think my boss would have felt it was worth saving a few bucks by short-changing ourselves along the way.

Now I need to not stay up all night tonight, so I can be awake and alert enough in the morning, when our tech will be in to show us what we need to know about the communicator software, and resetting the tail light after the simple routine maintenance tasks are done. When I say "us" and "we", I am technically referring to both my boss and myself, however I expect that I will be the one that retains and makes use of the knowledge.
With the day to day operations of the cinema under my purview; I'd rather that the self-proclaimed technological Luddite simple stand by with his hands behinds his back, and just watch the lights blink! [Wink]

Posted by Gracia L. Babbidge (Member # 582) on 06-21-2013, 11:37 AM:

Just to be clear - I have no quarrel at all with the gentleman who is our tech. He really has endeavored to take good care of us.
*knocks on wood* We have not lost any shows along the way.
I don't blame him for not being able to immediately advise us on the subtitle matter we encountered - if I were traveling, and got contacted by someone half-panicked, odds are, putting all the information together from memory would be difficult, at best.
I now also know that some information that would have been handy for me to have also, had been given to my boss when I was not present, and with so much on his mind, some just got lost in the shuffle, while the rest he must not have realized might need be passed along.

At this point, I ought to have known that I wasn't getting the complete picture of the oddities that happen when I'm not present. [Razz]

Now if I can just figure out how to keep my boss from nearly panicking anytime something deviates from "normal", that would be super.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-21-2013, 01:32 PM:

I think that Brad and film-tech have the right idea when it comes to full digital support. I am glad that you kind of started to get things sorted out Gracia.

I think the transition to digital has caused everyone to have to change wether for the good or the bad. Installers, service companies, theatre owners, managers, and projectionists have all had to face the challenge of learning new technology and new ways of doing business. Some did it very early on and it is old hat now. Others may be just beginning. The people who are willing to adapt are going to prosper.