Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Does Scaler with this feature exist ??

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Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 06-29-2013, 04:09 AM:

I'm upgrading our cinema facility and just bought a Solaria One +. Aside from DCP, I will be showing quite a bit of alternative content ranging from, Beta, HDcam SR, Computer files from a Mac/AJA Kona3 and BLuRay player.

With all the devices mentioned, i definitely need a scaler and after testing out a few, i settled on the Barco ImagePro II.

Now here's my million dollar question:

I need to be able to have the scaler auto sensor my input and upscale the output to a fixed 2K resolution BUT keeping the cadence the same, without having to manually change it each time. Does anyone know, if it's possible to achieve that on the Barco or any scalers/switcher.

Here's an example:
I'm playing a 1920 x 1080 @ 23.976p video. Now with the input set to auto sensor, the Barco sees my files properly. If i want to scale it out at 2K @ 23.976. I need to manually set the Barco's output to the desired resolution and frame rate. Now, during a festival, i could be playing 20-30 files with mixed frame rate and resolution with less than 3 seconds change over between files, so i won't have time to manually change the frame rate each time or having to call up presets is just as redundant.

Also, as good as the Barko is, scaling resolution is acceptable but changing frame rate does not look good at all so i need a way to output to a fixed resolution while keeping the original frame rate.

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 06-29-2013, 06:51 AM:

I’ve been wondering about the exact same thing with the cheaper model, Barco ACS-2048. It’s hard to understand why they didn’t include an ”auto” output frequency option (meaning ”match source”), when even cheap Blu-Ray players have that! For a long time, the ACS-2048 only had 50 and 59.94 Hz options for output - the recent sofware update added more frequencies, but there’s still no ”auto” option.

Many people feel that an acceptable workaround is just to keep the output frequency at 59.94 for all formats, since conversions from lower frequencies to 59.94 look much better than the other way around. Personally, I’d rather do it properly.

I have limited experience with the Christie Cine-IPM 2K, but I’ve seen it configured so that the output Hz will always match the input. Perhaps that’s even the default mode of operation.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-29-2013, 11:10 AM:

The reason the ACS2048 was fixed was due to its history...it started as a Series 1 box and it was best to get everything homogenized when feeding to a projector. Even now, one has to be careful about interlaced and progressive feeds to a series 2 projector.

The frame rate thing is definitely a valid point. One thing I've noticed is that anytime any scaler seems to do the frame rate conversion...there is always that jutter somewhere in the picture...particularly when there is action in the movie.

I do think that if you have a complicated set up where you have a multitude of sources then you should have an automation system to match it (e.g. Crestron/AMX/Extron...etc) in which case, sending a command to the scaler would be just part of the "Send to room" command. Think of it as a macro. Change, input, change output frame rate.

I'll definitely put in a request to Barco for having output frame rate match input...it may be too late for the aging ACS2048 but the ImageProIIHD probably could do it.

Please note too...it is "normal" for scalers to have a firm/fixed output that matches the "native" resolution/color/frequency of the display device. That is their job...make it so the display device sees a constant source. The projector will likely hiccup when the frame rate changes too.

-Steve

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 06-29-2013, 02:25 PM:

I really don't see the need for an automated system to resolve my problem. If anything it will add another set up ''layer'' that can go wrong.

No scalers in the world can do justice to frame rate conversion. Through the eyes of any video/film professional, it looks pretty bad at best.

I can't believe that a $12K Barco scaler cannot do such a simple task. Anyways, if you guys can think of a scaler that can auto output the source's frequency, let me know, Thx

Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 06-29-2013, 04:28 PM:

How about this?

http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/teranex/

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-30-2013, 12:14 AM:

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I can tell you what has worked for us for quite a long time now (check out the AFI/Silver photos in the warehouse here...it is 10-years old and continues to be ultra-reliable).

Again, if you switch frame rates, don't plan on any seamless switches since the projector will need to reclock on the new rate.

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 06-30-2013, 02:59 AM:

What kind of a single source are you using that has the ability to output 24 or 23.976 or 50 or 29.98 or whatever without glitch and on the fly?

Do you have a computer as your source? if so, you probably know the output stays the same at about 60Hz+-0.1, regardless of material.

XDCAM/HDCAM/Digibeta decks are set as players to playout at a defined framerate. Changing framerate takes 10 seconds and rebooting a deck. You have 10 of those each outputing the exact needed frame rate? Same is true for other semi professional video gear (like certain HD players).

The only players i have seen that would change the frame rate on an 'automatic' basis are bluray players, and you can hardly call that switch seamless, and it takes way more than 3 seconds to change out discs/load.

I am really interested in your setup and sources as you don't mention what exactly you are using and is therefore hard to make suggestions. The decks are probably set to output at a certain freq, the bluray also, the computer most definitely and is already doing it's own framerate conversion from whatever to 60Hz.

You mention solaria One. Are you sure it correctly displays 23.976 material? its generally not supported on 2k machines.

What I do here is, in the case if we have a programme of 10-15 shorts of varying framerate and resolution, is to first see what the majority of them will be, and then select the 'best' medium for the scaler output. If for instance we have a programme of 10x 24fps shorts and 2x 25fps shorts, i'm changing the output of the scaler to 48Hz, as then the majority will playout fine, and the two left over are played back with only slight jitter (better than playing out 25@24).

Same then goes in reverse. The biggest losers are always the videos made in 30fps but who the hell is serious in doing production at 30fps?

Otoh, if the imageproHD is anything like the DCS100/200, changing the frame rate is one turn of a knob if you are always on that level of the menu.

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 06-30-2013, 12:47 PM:

Of course, finding the best compromise frame rate is one solution but as i've said, frame rate conversion looks bad no matter how you slice it, so i try to avoid it at all cost.

To answer Steve and Bajsic questions....

- I switch regularly frame rate on the fly with our current projector, an old Digital Projection, and no glitch whatsoever....and this is without the aid of a scaler/switcher...so it definitely can be done.

- I tested the Barco by progamming several presets, each having the same resolution (2K) but different frame rate (23.976p, 24p, 25p, 29.97p). Switching between them is seamless, no glitch whatsoever. So getting back to my original post, if i'm able to output the source's original frame rate, it would great as i won't need to to call up any presets.

- For film festival, especially Fantasia short animation type, we receive MOV or MXF files within our technical requirements. All Beta and HDcam SR are also ingested. Our specs are MOV wrapper, 10 bit uncompressed, Prorez 422(HQ) or DNxHD as CODEC so the quality is great. The playback is done via a RAID 5 server connected to a MacPro with AJA Kona 3 hardware and output via SDI.
We simply use the AJATV player and switching between film (with different resolution and frame rate) takes less than 2 seconds!!!! The only drag with having different resolution is the projectionist must constantly readjust the curtains so having everything upres to 2k fixed this problem.....now only if i can have the scaler output the source's original frame rate.

Anyways, i'll call Barco and see if they can add this feature to their current scaler.

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 06-30-2013, 03:52 PM:

so,if everything is done within the AJA, why do you use the scaler?

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 06-30-2013, 05:05 PM:

The AJA TV is a simple playback app. It plays back mov files in its original format (resolution, frame rate, etc...). Therefore a scaler is needed to upres everything to 2K.

Also, DCI compliant projector will not let you adjusts Gamma, contrast, brightness etc. We need those adjustments for power point presentation etc....

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-30-2013, 05:14 PM:

DCI does not disallow to change Gamma, contrast, etc. The Sony 515 is certainly DCI compliant and has a full set of adjustment controls for alternative (even DCI) content.

But I understand your issue. A Scaler with auto timing would be quite useful in your scenario.

Are you sure AJA, Barco scaler and projector will be able to follow channging signals so quickly and without any glitches?

- Carsten

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 06-30-2013, 10:44 PM:

On the Solaria One +, there are a few Alternative presets where you can slightly adjust the Gamma but no way to alter the contrast, brightness. I called Christie and talked to one of their engineer regarding this issue and this is what he told me...DCI specs will not allowed such changes and our products reflect those specifications. Now, it also does not mean DCI won't allow something that it cannot be done and you have the perfect example as your Sony let you alter gamma, brightness, contrast...Anyways, with the Image Pro II, i can alter practically any settings i want.

I'm still testing the Barco / Solaria combo but so far switching between different format has been seamless...as long as i have all the frame rate stored in different presets but as i've mentioned, i definitely want to avoid having to access the Barco during projection.

So this is exactly what i need from a scaler:

Input - set to auto input detection
output - set to 2K and frame rate to ''match source''

With the above setting, i will never have to touch the scaler.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2013, 07:54 PM:

Analog Way has such scalers

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 07-01-2013, 08:20 PM:

Do you know the exact model ?? I talked to the Analog Way rep before getting the Barco and according to him, it's not possible.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-02-2013, 06:29 AM:

The OPS300, for one, can be set so that the output frequency will be the input frequency. It won't be a seamless switch...it can't.

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 07-07-2013, 03:20 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The OPS300, for one, can be set so that the output frequency will be the input frequency. It won't be a seamless switch...it can't.

Do you own the OPS300, i had one here for a couple of days for testing and i ran into the same problem as the Barco, if one sets the input to auto detect, the output cannot be set to same as input.

Our current projector can lock to different resolutions and frame rates while the shutter is closed. This feature allows us to change frequency and resolution on the fly without any glitches. I don't understand why new crop of Christie projectors can't do this...it's such a GREAT feature.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-07-2013, 03:30 PM:

I've put one in and I'm getting ready to put 3 more in. The ability to lock the output to the input was a criteria. However you have to designate which input is your reference. We will be using a Creston system for control.

Posted by Anhtu Vu (Member # 7689) on 07-07-2013, 04:29 PM:

Can you leave the input to auto detect (like the Barco Image ProII) and have the output set to a fixed Resolution BUT with the frequency matching the input ?

What do you think about the quality of the Analog Way scaler vs the Barco ??