Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: UPS back up for Barco 23B an 20c

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Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 07-06-2013, 01:11 PM:

Dear frends, I have 3 Barco 23B and 3 20C projectors, they have a connection for UPS at 230V.
did some one can tell me how many watts does the UPS should be?

thanks

mike Moreno

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 07-06-2013, 01:25 PM:

Are you planning to put them all on a big central UPS or connect them to a UPS individually?

Also, you only want to hook up the projectors to the UPS(es) or also other equipment?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-06-2013, 04:10 PM:

I would assume they would be one UPS per projector. I use 1,500 Watts for each screen as it's relatively affordable. I plug in the server and switch as well.

Of course, this will only hold up the electronics for perhaps 10 minutes but the idea is to work during brownouts and short power outages. It gets very expensive to use a bigger UPS.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 07-06-2013, 04:51 PM:

My Barco systems were provided (each) with a Tripp Lite SMX-3000 230 volt UPS for the projectors, and a Tripp Lite "Smart 1500LCD" 120 volt UPS for the rack equipment. Out of curiosity, I shut the power off, to see how long they'd run. I gave up and turned the power back on after 45 minutes, as I'll never need that much capacity.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-06-2013, 08:31 PM:

They used the 3000VA because they didn't know another way to get 220V. Tripplite does make a lower VA with 220V...like the SMX1000RT2U which is 1000VA. If you measure the current consumption of the Barco projector electronics you'll find that is about 1A at 208V. So even a 1000VA is sufficient to drive just the projector for most any typical brown outs.

Another way is to use a suitable stepup transformer and stick with a 120V UPS...if you are doing a server and projector (and possibly the sound processor...etc.)...then I agree with Sam that 1500VA is a good size to back it all up.

From Tripplite, I would stick with the SmartOnline (best) and the SmartPro (good). The SmartOnline series is a double-conversion system so there is zero transfer time between UPS and city power. The backed up equipment will not know there was any issue with the power whatsoever. The SmartPro is a true sine wave output UPS but it is a line-interactive one. Note, it also regulates the voltage so that the output voltage remains at 120V during brown outs.

Don't go cheap on UPSes or you won't be protecting the equipment like you intended. Some projector brands a MUCH more sensitive to power fluctuations than others too.

Also remember that UPS batteries are generally good for about 3-years and swell with age (Lead Acid gel cells)...they need to be changed out regularly or they can swell to the point that they won't be able to be changed.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 07-06-2013, 10:17 PM:

Would the 3000 or 5000 VA models keep a show going uninterrupted during short (under 1 minute) blackouts? We have several short power outages here in the course of a year.

Our installer has us on a 120V UPS which keeps things going long enough for us to pause the show and shut everything down, but the lamp obviously does not stay lit requiring us to re strike manually. I have never really been happy with this solution.

NEC NC2000
SX 2000

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-07-2013, 04:28 AM:

A general rule of thumb is that if you are at the maximum VA for the UPS...you get about 5 minutes of power.

Since you have a NC2000, you are likely running 20-30A of power (depends on the lamp and how hard you are driving it). But even at the low end of things you are going to need a 5000VA to keep the lamp lit...more likely you should look an 8KVA unit to carry the full 5500Watt rating of the projector. So you are talking about a few thousand dollars per projector now...and probably over a grand in batteries every 3 years or so.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-07-2013, 05:57 AM:

On a doremi you can set a macro to be used when you restart a show due to a power cut. The macro will then make sure that lamp is on, ligts are down, sound is back where it was.
Maybe - not sure - you can also ask the server to rewind a couple of minutes.

You have to press PLAY anyway, just execute a macro instead.

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 07-07-2013, 05:58 AM:

Don't forget that the sound rack should then also play during those brownouts and that is easily another couple kW more.

We use 1.5kVA UPSs for running projector electronics and server. We get some blackouts of 30 minutes and it stays on without a problem. They are rated at 15minutes at 50%, but the electronics don't take more than 10% altogether.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-07-2013, 09:46 AM:

Is it common to put the entire projector on a UPS? That seems like it could get very expensive very quickly just to prepare for what should be a rather rare event. Do these theatres have generators as well, with the UPS just being there to allow time for the generator to start up and stabilize? I would think that there would be other issues with running a theatre during a power outage (no HVAC, emergency lights on in auditoria, no ticket machine/cash register, etc.).

It definitely makes sense to use a UPS for the server and possibly the sound processor, but I am surprised that people are able to justify it for the projector, too, and am curious as to how it is being implemented. I certainly never heard of anyone doing this with film projectors, although I can see where a 10-20 minute boot time for the D-cinema system would be problematic.

Also, what is the failure mode of D-cinema servers in the event of a power failure? Do they start up at the beginning of the movie and require that the operator "fast forward" to the part where the power failed? Or do they remember the playback position and re-start there?

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-07-2013, 09:50 AM:

I've even got my Direct TV on a ups.

Posted by Jeff Taylor (Member # 443) on 07-07-2013, 11:08 AM:

yes, I love DirecTv, but isn't it a pain in the ___ for that receiver to reboot after a momentary glitch. It takes almost 5 minutes. Good thought Louis.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-07-2013, 12:12 PM:

^^^^^ @ Louis and Jeff: True that. [Smile]

quote: Scott Norwood
Is it common to put the entire projector on a UPS? That seems like it could get very expensive very quickly just to prepare for what should be a rather rare event. Do these theatres have generators as well, with the UPS just being there to allow time for the generator to start up and stabilize? I would think that there would be other issues with running a theatre during a power outage (no HVAC, emergency lights on in auditoria, no ticket machine/cash register, etc.).

It definitely makes sense to use a UPS for the server and possibly the sound processor, but I am surprised that people are able to justify it for the projector, too, and am curious as to how it is being implemented. I certainly never heard of anyone doing this with film projectors, although I can see where a 10-20 minute boot time for the D-cinema system would be problematic.

Also, what is the failure mode of D-cinema servers in the event of a power failure? Do they start up at the beginning of the movie and require that the operator "fast forward" to the part where the power failed? Or do they remember the playback position and re-start there?

In my limited experience so far, it IS uncommon for the ENTIRE projector to be on a UPS. I have just been protecting the electronics...(Christie CP2210 and 2220) as the lamp obviously will go out during an outage. That, and the sound rack, etc. It would get very expensive fast to protect ALL of what you'd need to keep the show running (Like Steve said, at least 8kvA or more)so that is rarely done.

Good point on all the other issues of HVAC, etc and emergency lights coming on.

The most sense is to UPS the projector and server, the sound processor is irrelevant in a way since the amps will shut down. The reason you should (IMHO MUST) protect the projector is so that the cooling fans keep running so you don't end up "hot soaking" the projector's lamphouse and electronics. (35mm lamphouses rarely had delicate electronics in them so a hot soak didn't harm anything really.)

The implementation on Christes is really easy: they provide a separate IEC inlet to connect up UPS power. (On the 2210 you simply slide a switch above the IEC inlet..on the 2220 and up, you open a non-security side panel and reconnect a single molex-type connector.) I cannot speak for the other brands on the how-to. Best part: The UPS side is "universal" voltage, anything from 110-250 will work.

SO far, I have never tried to "power fail" a Dolby DSS200 to see where in the playback it will resume, if at all. The long reboot time and uncertainty of how it will act when restarting makes me not want to try it. Maybe someday if I get my own setup here to play around with I'll try it for shits and grins.

Finally, the OP is in Mexico..not exactly a place with the best and most stable power system. [Wink]

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-07-2013, 01:44 PM:

Barco is as easy as Christie are. There is a small IEC to IEC lead where the power switch is. If the lead is in place, the mains will power both electronics and lamp. If you disconnect it, you disconnect the electronics supply and you can connect your UPS IEC lead to the male socket.

Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 07-07-2013, 04:31 PM:

We currently have the server, router and the 120v side of the projector on a 750VA UPS. It keeps everything running for a few minutes, minus the lamp.

Right now, what I do if the power outage is more than a few seconds where I can just re-strike the lamp, is pause the show, shut everything down, and resume where I left off when the power stabilizes.

When the server reboots, the show resumes where it left off.

I live in a rural area with an outdated power system, the power goes out or flickers quite frequently.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 07-07-2013, 04:56 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Is it common to put the entire projector on a UPS? That seems like it could get very expensive very quickly just to prepare for what should be a rather rare event. Do these theatres have generators as well, with the UPS just being there to allow time for the generator to start up and stabilize? I would think that there would be other issues with running a theatre during a power outage (no HVAC, emergency lights on in auditoria, no ticket machine/cash register, etc.).

It surely isn't common to put the whole projector on UPS. If you do that you will indeed also need to put all the other power-hungry stuff like amps on UPS to keep the show running.

If you're living in an area with unstable power, you might consider to have those things on UPS too, but in those cases, a big central UPS will quickly become an interesting option, that will also make a generator setup much easier. Still, the costs involved are horrendous and I've never seen such a setup in a cinema yet (which obviously doesn't mean it isn't being done).

HVAC is something nobody will put on a UPS. Even big data centers run their HVAC systems solely on generators. The short interval between the blackout and the time the generator kicks in should not be a problem.

Emergency lightning is, at least around here, required to have its own backup batteries and in case of a blackout.

Lightning, Auditorium lights, cash registers, etc. can all be on generator only. If the power goes out, people have to wait a minute or 5 before everything is back up, but I don't suppose that's a big deal. Lights should be back up once the generator kicks in.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-09-2013, 09:02 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
Barco is as easy as Christie are. There is a small IEC to IEC lead where the power switch is. If the lead is in place, the mains will power both electronics and lamp. If you disconnect it, you disconnect the electronics supply and you can connect your UPS IEC lead to the male socket.

Thanks for that info Marco!! [thumbsup]

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 07-12-2013, 09:02 AM:

The Barco 10s/10sx projector does not have the UPS jumper and a UPS would have to carry the entire projector. You could sense the power loss and have the lamp shut off immediately but the UPS would still have to supply the lamp power for a short time.
You can do a bit of (pretty simple) internal rewiring to have the electronics only on UPS power. However, Barco will not help you with that (ie tell you how to do it) since it voids the projector's electrical certification (UL, CE etc) - that may be an issue with your insurance... and the warranty may be void as well.
All the other series 2 Barco projectors have the UPS jumper. There's probably a way to do it with their S1 projectors as well, I haven't tried with one though.

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 07-14-2013, 08:15 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
HVAC is something nobody will put on a UPS. Even big data centers run their HVAC systems solely on generators. The short interval between the blackout and the time the generator kicks in should not be a problem.

Not necessarily. While rare, there are some data centers that DO have CRAC/CRAH units on separate UPS systems, in addition to generator. Depending on typology, it may be necessary to meet Tier IV requirements. This becomes even more important with closely coupled cooling. a 20+kW rack will quickly generate a thermal excursion.

Depending on the requirements, it may be cheaper & better to put in a larger, central UPS, as the chances of them being a double-conversion is greater. Power quality and reliability is much higher than those line interactive UPSs, that are common in the >2kVA ranges.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-14-2013, 11:21 AM:

Broadcast facilities (AM, FM, TV) solely use generators, except for computer based equipment which uses UPS.

Generators "come up" in 12-25 seconds. This is good enough for transmitters and lighting. You would have to add reboot time for the computer based equipment. This makes "good enough" into "not good enough."

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 05-06-2014, 01:52 PM:

i fwe only protect the electronics of the projector,server, sound procesor and one amplifier (central) is there something someone did to make the projector pause the show?
like a pulse send from the ups to the server so it pause the show.

mike morneo
mexico

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-06-2014, 05:01 PM:

You just need a relay. When power is removed, it closes the 'pause' GPI.

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 05-06-2014, 05:38 PM:

thanks MArco

Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 05-06-2014, 06:54 PM:

A double conversion UPS will always be preferable to an on-line UPS. Especially with electronics that are sensitive to input voltage shifts.

On-line UPS constantly adapt to input voltage through buck/boost transformers, and you can see voltage variations depending on Utility conditions. Some On-Line UPS's allow the output voltage to drop as low was 90 volts or lower before switching to batteries.

Double Conversion UPS's will always provide a consistent output voltage, regardless of input voltage. This is because power is always going through an AC-DC/DC-AC process.

A good explanation and demonstration can be found Here

There are certainly 208V single phase UPS's available on the market. These will be found in the more "serious" UPS manufacturers, such as Liebert, Eaton and APC.

The investment to put the entire cinema system (not just electronics) on a UPS can be cost prohibitive, unless the area is prone to very, very frequent power fluctuations and outages.

Also keep in mind the life span of the batteries selected. Gel batteries typically seen in smaller UPS's have a life span of approx 3 years. Some VRLAs last 3-5 years. The more often a batter is "hit" the shorter its lifespan.

Additionally everything should be protected by TVSS.

Ideally projection booths would also be on a separate distribution system from the rest of the house (including HVAC units), particularly those theaters with kitchens, behind its on K-factor transformer. This will help with cleaning up the "dirty" power typically seen.

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-11-2014, 02:20 PM:

WHEN WE DECIDED TO RESTORE AN OLD 1945 SINGLE SCREEN HOUSE BACK IN 1987, I DECIDED TO INSTALL A 40KW GENERATOR (208 VOLT, 3 PHASE) POWERED BY A 200 HORSE FORD ENGINE, RUNNING OFF OF NATURAL GAS. COST OF THE UNIT THEN WAS AROUND $15,000. I WIRED EVERYTHING IN THE THEATRE, EXCEPT FOR HVAC AND HEAVY KITCHEN EQUIPMENT (WE ALSO HAVE FULL FOOD SERVICE) WITHIN THE THEATRE THROUGH THE TRANSFER SWITCH. AT THAT TIME WE HAD TWO 35 MM SYSTEMS THAT WOULD SHUT DOWN WHEN WE HAD A VERY SHORT POWER INTERRUPTION; SINCE THE GENERATOR HAS A 10 SECOND START DELAY.

I ALSO DECIDED TO INVEST IN A EATON 12KW BATTERY BACKUP (TRUE ALWAYS ONLINE) UNIT THAT WOULD KEEP EVERYTHING IN THE BOOTH ONLINE, EXCEPT FOR THE LAMPS.

THIS HAS WORKED VERY WELL AND SINCE CONVERTING TO DIGITAL 2 YEARS AGO, IT HAS SAVED OUR SHOWS FROM EVER BEING OFF SCREEN. I DON'T RECOMMEND THIS FOR MOST HOUSES, BUT SINCE WE ARE A HISTORIC, SINGLE SCREEN THEATRE, IT HAS PAID FOR ITSELF MANY TIMES OVER!

WE EVEN HAD A PERFORMANCE WHEN A HURRICANE HAD KNOCKED OUT POWER TO THE ENTIRE REGION! WE ALWAYS GET COMMENTS WHEN THE ENTIRE DOWNTOWN IS BLACKED OUT, EXCEPT FOR OUR OLD MARQUEE!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-11-2014, 02:31 PM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
The Barco 10s/10sx projector does not have the UPS jumper and a UPS would have to carry the entire projector.

The NC-900 is set up exactly the same way. But at 220 volts it's total current draw is only about 6.3 amps with the lamps at 100%. So a 1500 VA ups is still realistic and gives about 15 minutes of run time for the whole system with SX-3000, touch monitor, switch and ECNA-5.
Not sure what the Barko draws... If you're running a 2kw lamp I can imagine you're gonna need a lot larger UPS, say 3000VA minimum for a fifteen minute run time.

Don't forget that many Tripp lite UPS's are available with external battery hookup. You can use a much larger external battery pack for much longer run times (recharge will also be longer). This is a less expensive route than going with a really large capacity UPS when you don't need the VA capacity... and you just need the extended run time.

We also use 220 volt double conversion Smart Online UPS's exclusively except on my TMS systems. No reason not to go 220 volt and the current draw is usually about half on any given piece of gear. You will usually get longer equipment run times just by using a 220 volt version.

Mark

Posted by Ethan Dutcher (Member # 8319) on 06-25-2014, 08:53 AM:

I am also looking into protecting our Barco DP2K-15C, judging by the comments here it seems I have two options. First is purchase a 1500VA 220V UPS and run a second 220V line to the UPS, remove the jumper from the back of the projector and hook the UPS up to the male port. The second is to purchase a 5000VA(or something that can handle our 3000W lamp) and hook that directly up to the L6-30P connection on the projector.

It seems like the first option will still have us lose our lamp during brownouts but help prevent needing to restart/turn back on the projector. So there will still be show stoppage but less downtime. The second option should seemingly keep our lamp running during brownouts(I'll also be getting a UPS for the server, Obviously sound will still go down).

Being summer in Florida we have numerous storms a day and we had 4 brownouts in one week recently. It seems to be affecting the lamp life in addition to our show interruptions. I have only recently started here, but our 3kw lamps have been getting replaced at around 800 hours due to failure. Can I assume that the 5kVA unit might help us get some extra life from our bulbs, or does this not seem like it would cause lamp damage?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-25-2014, 11:12 AM:

Fred, why are you shouting? My brain hurts.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
The most sense is to UPS the projector and server, the sound processor is irrelevant in a way since the amps will shut down.

Since we are not talking about keeping a show running during a power outage, it wouldn't be necessary to protect the processor in that regard, but it does make sense to put it on a UPS or at least a power conditioner or surge suppressor or something like that so that it isn't damaged. Am I wrong?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-25-2014, 05:29 PM:

If you have a UPS it makes sense to put the sound processor, D-A, scaler, network switch, Jnior... all these low-power devices don't add up to that much (maybe 100W total?) and having the added surge/brownout protection is worthwhile.
Have a plan for what to do if (when?) the UPS fails. This has been an occasional problem and causes considerable confusion on site. We tend to plug the server in with one cord on UPS power and one on surge protect only, Doremi servers at least start beeping angrily with one PSU down. When we get a call that something isn't working and there's a shrill beeping, it helps point towards the culprit. The UPS itself will beep in some failure modes but they can also just go dead silently.