This is topic External subtitles in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-26-2013, 10:04 AM:
Tried a few times, and now looking for someone else who tried it.
So, the idea is to set the projector to get the subtitles (Cinecanvas) from somewhere else when projecting a DCP. Looks like something that can be done, but before going deep in the XML hand editing, will be useful to know about other experiences.
It's for use in a festival and in an repertory cinema. Installed with Doremi and Barco.
Thanks for any help and guidance!
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-26-2013, 02:42 PM:
You mean you want to add your own subtitles to festival submissions? Will these all be in DCP format, or other electronic formats as well? In the case of DCPs, will they typically be encrypted?
The subtitles will be shown on the screen, not 'external' equipment like electronic displays or glasses?
- Carsten
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-26-2013, 09:46 PM:
Exact. A DCP plays from the server, and the projector looks for the subtitles from another "server".
I can kind of see a place to say the Barco where to look for the Cinecanvas files. But not sure if it's for that, what format did it expect to find (map.xml??) etc.
Actually, if this works, I'm hoping it will work for subtitling encrypted DCPs. For non encrypted ones remastering is an option most of the time.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-27-2013, 03:49 AM:
No, feeding from external server does not work with DCPs. You need to wrap the titles into the existing DCP files and have the DCP player/server handle it.
Do you have a budget for this? I think Wolfgang Woehl has an interesting piece of software for this.
https://github.com/wolfgangw/digital_cinema_tools/wiki
More info:
http://www.michaelcinquin.com/tools/dcp/DCP_subtitling
http://miblog.alma.ch/2011/07/adding-subtitles-to-dcp.html
How long before the festival will you get these submissions? Will take time to prepare this.
I know that some festivals use an alternative approach, they create subtitles in powerpoint etc. and then play them 'more or less in sync' over a second projector.
This has pro's and con's, obviously.
- Carsten
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-27-2013, 09:32 AM:
Well, this looks like the end of it ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The main interest was using it with encrypted DCPs. For unencrypted ones we have a postproduction partner that take care of the creation and remastering.
Virtual subtitling is my next option, but needs a separate projector, and most of the time a separate small screen.
If you ever use of it, forget Powerpoint! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Try qstit or subtivals.
THANKS!
Posted by Janis Misevics (Member # 7845) on 08-29-2013, 06:43 AM:
Manuel - I think Carsten is wrong about this one. It IS possible to play external subtitles without modifying existing dcp files.
http://www.barco.com/en/News/Press-releases/barco-releases-dci-compliant-series-2-projectors-with-integrated-cinecanvastmsubtitling.aspx
And this week we managed to get these CineCanvas subtitles on Barco/Dolby running. One thing we are still trying to solve - to get local language characters displayed correctly.
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-29-2013, 09:09 AM:
YES! I think that Carsten will be happy to be wrong in this case ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Do you prefer that we talk in private or here? Will be really helpful.
I will share my Barco/Doremi experiments at the end anyways.
THANKS!
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-29-2013, 10:58 AM:
No, I am not happy - because I am not wrong ;-)
This press release is from 2010. And it only means that until some time after the initial release of series II DLP projectors, none of them was able to display Cinecanvas subtitles, as was possible previously with series I machines.
The subtitling software module was simply lacking, TI did not finich it before the initial release of their series II software. As an intermediate solution, Doremi developed a server-based subtitle engine (which is still available today as an alternative to projector-based subtitle rendering). After a while, TI supplied the Cinecanvas renderer and then ALL series II DLP machines were updated with this functionality.
Whatever method you use - you still need to wrap your subtitles into the DCP, and if it is encrypted, you will not be able to do it. There is no means to tell the projector to look for subtitle files elsewhere while playing a DCP.
- Carsten
Posted by Janis Misevics (Member # 7845) on 08-29-2013, 12:49 PM:
Manuel, I sent you a message describing the way we did to get these subtitles on screen.
Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 08-29-2013, 02:44 PM:
I really don't know what should be secret about this, so if you can please tell us how to play external subtitle files on encrypted dcps, because it would help a ton of festivals. I am pretty fed up with running two projectors for subtitling DCPs as i could use them more wisely/profitably elsewhere.
We are also running Barco/Doremi combos.
Thanks for any info.
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-29-2013, 02:55 PM:
I will certainly post my tests. What Janis proposed didn't work me in the past, but I'm sure I missed something.
And I will be happy to share and discuss any other festival specific challenges.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-29-2013, 03:23 PM:
I don't know if anyone ever tried that - and yes, I would be happy if I'm wrong:
The server uses an ethernet connection to the projector for control, image encryption, and subtitle transfer. This is normally a point-to-point connection, in order to secure timely transfer and to not interfere with the encryption and control. Theoretically it could be possible to run this connection over a switch and thus tap into the projector from a second computer, transmitting ONLY the subtitles following the same protocol as the DCI server would during subtitling. So the projector would receive image through TLS, control from the server, and subtitles from another computer with special software. These would somehow needed to be synced to the DCI server in order to play the subtitles with the proper timing.
I have no idea wether the subtitle transfer between server and projector is secured, or wether a DLP projector would accept subtitles from a different IP while playing DCI content. Even if you get it to work, from previous experience there is a high risc to cause image transmission/encryption issues and shop stops.
It would only work on non-IMB systems, that is, classic HD-SDI+Cinelink/TLS setups with external server/media block combos.
- Carsten
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-30-2013, 01:32 PM:
It works! Well, something goes on the screen.
Indeed, it's a non-IMB setup, and I don't have access to one.
I don't think the DCP server makes any difference, it's the Barco projector who does the work.
I will let Janis publish the steps, nothing magical or secret. But play around Communicator software for CineCanvas.
Need to check:
-If the sync is ok
-special characters
-"freerun" for other sources without embedded timecode
-correct the position on the screen
-if some kind of metadata file can be used to map several files and avoid manually changing every time
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-30-2013, 07:41 PM:
Okay, I read through the Barco Communicator manual and I understand how you came to this approach. Wow, hard to believe Barco actually put this piece of crap documentation into the manual. Description and even intention is completely obscure.
But I admit it sounds promising for what you want to achieve and to my knowledge Barco is the only company offering it in their series II config software.
Did you try contacting Barco about it?
- Carsten
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 08-30-2013, 07:53 PM:
Carsten: Did you try contacting Barco about it?
No, and probably I shouldn't, just in case they decide to "correct" it ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-01-2013, 07:22 AM:
I would still try, I don't think that would be a reason for them to drop it.
- Carsten
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-07-2017, 10:51 AM:
It has been 1283 days since the last post.
Posted by Tiago Casal Ribeiro (Member # 9904) on 03-07-2017, 10:51 AM:
Sorry to unearth this old thread, but is this method still working? Is it still possible to add external subtitles?
Posted by Manuel Acevedo Civantos (Member # 7567) on 03-07-2017, 01:52 PM:
It never really worked. It's much easier to create a VF supplemental DCP.