Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DCPs with 1.33 or 1.37

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-09-2013, 01:51 PM:

Those of you that have run "classic" titles in DCP (those that predate CinemaScope). Are you finding that they are formatting them as 4x3 (1.33) or 1.375 (Academy)? Regardless of what they put in the title of the DCP...have you verified just how wide the image is (relative to height)?

When one takes into account the 2K and 4K permutations (and all of the other potential formats in a revival house), the number of projector formats fills up pretty quickly!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-09-2013, 05:31 PM:

I verify by projecting the image with a "no crop" screen file, sizing the masking to the image, and then projecting my custom-made "universal" test pattern to see what we actually have. I select the appropriate format cue after I have done this.

Note - on some of the 1.33/1.37 titles, I recommend moving past the credits because those are sometimes "window boxed" with black borders all the way around. I suspect these DCP's share a common source with the bluray. Trusting the credits such a show would result in severe over-cropping. IIRC, "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" is an example of this.

On the subject of projector formats filling up... The Dolby DSS200 only "sees" the first 14 presets of the Barco DP2K-32B, even though the Barco can have more than that.

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-09-2013, 05:38 PM:

('m confirmed with Sony Repertory that their Academy Flat ratio films like Gilda and It Happened One Night that have been converted to DCP are presented in a 1.37:1 frame that fits inside the flat 1.85:1 aspect ratio with black bars on the sides.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-09-2013, 05:56 PM:

Is there a preference for 1.33 vs. 1.37? I am in the process of having a DCP made from a 16mm original. There will also be 35mm prints, which will be Academy (1.37).

The DCP should logically be 1.33, but I would do 1.37 if that is how all DCPs are being made now (in which case theatres would likely have masking and lens presets for 1.37).

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-09-2013, 06:31 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
Note - on some of the 1.33/1.37 titles, I recommend moving past the credits because those are sometimes "window boxed" with black borders all the way around. I suspect these DCP's share a common source with the bluray. Trusting the credits such a show would result in severe over-cropping. IIRC, "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" is an example of this.

That seems to be a Warner Bros thing. I've got Warner DVDs going back to the early 2000s with windowboxed opening credits (e.g. Dark Passage and Mildred Pierce). I'm guessing that the reason they did this is because DVDs could potentially be viewed either on a standard definition consumer TV set connected to the player with an analog lead, which overscans the signal significantly (i.e. the credits would be cropped if there wasn't a border around the edge of the frame), and on PC monitors and HDMI player-to-TV connections, for which there isn't any overscanning. So if on the original film, the credit text goes near the edges of the frame, the windowboxing is needed to ensure that everyone gets to see the credits without any cropping.

However, they seemed to have continued this habit once BDs came along, as well. Sierra Madre was the first Warners 1.37/4:3 BD I bought, and yup, it's got the credit windowboxing, too. Given that unless you're connecting your BD player to a CRT TV via a composite lead (and if you are, you're not likely to care about the picture quality!), there is no way to play a BD with an overscanned picture on consumer hardware, and so I can't understand why they do this. My only guess is the same as yours: that they're using a single digital master from which they then transcode to everything from the DCP to the Netflix stream.

I've never noticed the credit windowboxing trick done by any other DVD or BD label. I'm guessing that the publishers which cater to an educated audience of movie buffs (e.g. Criterion and Kino) assume that their customers will have the technology to view without any risk of overscanning, will not feel the need to legacy-equipment-proof their releases and prepare their masters accordingly.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-09-2013, 08:33 PM:

So Manny...are you seeing both 4x3 and 1.37? In particular, is 1.37 being used for classic titles or are they just maximizing at 4x3? It sounds like I'll have to prepare for both.

That is VERY interesting that Dolby only scans for the first 14 presets. I did not know that but it hasn't come up before. I'm about to set up a site with far more than 14 presets.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-09-2013, 09:05 PM:

Steve, I'll look through my records and see what I find regarding the frequency of 1.33 vs 1.37.

If your Dolby processors are seeing more than 14 projector presets, then I might finally upgrade my software.

Presently, I use 9 full presets for DCP presentations. Preset #10 is variable - I simply re-associate the lens, screen, and LSC files as needed when I encounter odd formats. The name of that preset is actually "DCP-Variable" so that I don't have to reboot the DSS200 in order for it to see/take a name change.

Presets 11 through 13 aren't really presets, they're just screen files, used during shorts programs, where I want to quickly "square up" vertical edges without the screen going black for an inordinately long time between shorts. Preset #14 is reserved for a variable screen file.

Presets greater than #14 are used for non-DCP applications.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-09-2013, 10:04 PM:

I'll let you know on the preset limit. If I run into it...I'll have Crestron take over.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-10-2013, 03:30 AM:

I came up against the 14 preset thing probably 3 years ago, certainly it was the tail end of Series 1, as I seem to recall it was on my last S1 install.

I did raise this with Dolby at the time, my request for more than 14 was met with a raised eyebrow and 'duly noted' to be put to the software developers. To be honest I haven't checked since to see if any change has been implemented.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 09-10-2013, 10:13 AM:

"I suspect these DCP's share a common source with the bluray."

While we have run a few classic films, most of the time (especially lately), we get a Blu-Ray shipped to us from California. Quite disappointing. However, I've also noticed that when we do get a D.C.P. it is just a transcoded Blu-Ray file. With black bars and everything. So, six in one, or half dozen the other...

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-10-2013, 02:05 PM:

Dennis: I still prefer to get a DCP so I can program it properly with cues, etc. Also DCP is way more stable than Bluray with its HDCP issues.

-----

Pete: My projector is a Barco Series 2 projector.

-----

Steve: I checked my reports and found the following...

Correction: "Sierra Madre" was actually a Bluray presentation, but the titles were indeed window-boxed.

"Casablanca" DCP was 1.37 with window-boxed titles.

"King Kong" DCP was 1.37 (and included the Overture!)

If I remember any others I'll look them up for you and reply here.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-11-2013, 02:52 AM:

I think the 'first 14' has more to do with DCP Communicator than the projector itself. IE the Dolby server only sees macros on the first 14 buttons in Communicator. Series 1s had 8 hardware buttons, Series 2 has 6.

I'll try it today if I get time, I'm on my way to a very dead DP2K20C.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-11-2013, 06:21 AM:

I did pick up some information on this. The preset limit issue is unique to Barco. You could get a short list if you have any blanks (e.g. skip preset 10) because Barco will send a termination character at that point and stop the polling. I don't have any confirmation (yet) on if a current system with current software/firmware has a 14 preset limit. Again, from what I heard, it is a Barco/Dolby interaction.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-11-2013, 07:38 AM:

Getting _way_ off-topic here, I am not curious about theatres with more than 14 presets. What are they?

If I were making a "complete" list, I would include the following:

1.17 - DCP
1.33 - DCP
1.37 - DCP
4x3 - Video
1.66 - DCP
1.66 - Video
1.75 - DCP
1.78 - DCP
16x9 - Video
1.85 - DCP
1.85 - Video
2.0 - DCP
2.2 - DCP
2.35 - DCP
2.35 - Video
2.39 - DCP
2.39 - Video
2.55 - DCP

That is 18 formats. What else is there? 3D? Something else?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-11-2013, 08:11 AM:

Yep, there might well be 3D thrown in.

I have a couple of places where the projector was moved between 2 or 3 screens, so everything was doubled or trippled!

Now those venues are all digital so the projector is 'parked' that issue has largely gone away.

Most mainstream sites as a minimum will have 2D Flat/Scope, 3D Flat/Scope, Alt Flat/Scope/16x9

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 09-11-2013, 10:03 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
That is 18 formats. What else is there? 3D? Something else?

VistaVision had a native aspect ratio of around 1:50.1, although AFAIK there weren't any features that were actually intended to be shown in that shape.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-11-2013, 06:55 PM:

Scott -- 3D and SD. We usually need to zoom those down.

DCP (2D)
1.33
1.37
1.66
1.78 (??fL) - DCP's of "HD" content
1.78 (14fL)
1.85
1.90 (full container)
2.20 (in 1.85)
2.39

DCP (3D)
1.78
1.85
2.39

HD
16x9
4x3 - large (full height)
1.66

For HD, I created those variations to accommodate the pillar-boxed formats because they require a custom screen file to conceal keystone, as well as a lateral lens shift because my projector is not exactly on the center line.

Thus far, I have not found it necessary to create separate presets for letter-boxed content, especially since subtitles often extend into the letterbox area. (We show a lot of foreign film with subtitles.) I let image width determine which preset I will use.

SD
4x3 - medium (about as large as we can show SD material)
4x3 - small (for "iffy" SD content, especially VHS)

Letter-boxed SD content is not zoomed. (It is masked, though.)

And then there are a few preset buttons that aren't populated with true presets. That is, they only change the screen file. I find this useful for shorts programs, which often jump back and forth between AR's. This lets me conceal keystone without constantly needing to pause in order to execute a full preset change. The screen file changes instantly.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-12-2013, 09:38 AM:

There are the 3Ds...one has to allow now for 24, 48 and 60fps.

The 2K and 4K versions of 2D DCPs...if you don't have separate 2K and 4K versions, you can run into subtitle issues on a 4K projector.

Posted by Michael Coate (Member # 757) on 12-23-2013, 04:48 PM:

quote: Leo Enticknap
I've never noticed the credit windowboxing trick done by any other DVD or BD label.

There are several labels that do it (but you're not likely to notice it if your monitor has overscan). Disney, for instance, even in the Hi-Def era, continues to windowbox the opening and/or closing credits of some of their Academy-shot animated titles. I recently checked my Blu-ray Disc collection and found the title sequences on Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and Cinderella are windowboxed.

To illustrate how inconsistent Disney is with this sort of thing, I found the opening title sequence is not windowboxed on Alice in Wonderland, Bambi, Dumbo or Peter Pan. I don't own Pinocchio or Fantasia on Blu-ray, so I cannot comment on those.

Inexplicably, the closing credits of the Blu-ray of (the non-Academy title) The Lion King are windowboxed ever so slightly.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-24-2013, 09:55 AM:

So, my 16mm DCP came back as 1.33. Pixel dimensions are 1440x1080.

This was made from an HDCAM tape at one of the "big" labs.

There is actually a different issue now, which is that the side pillars are grey and not black. This seems to be an issue with video using a 16-235 scale to represent brightness and D-cinema using a 0-255 scale. This will be a "fun" phone call next week.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-24-2013, 01:05 PM:

Set up a PCF that is to be used with your movie that has the right range...people will love you for that [Wink]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-24-2013, 05:42 PM:

Also, basically every projector SHOULD have electronic masking to get the pillar boxes black. I know most installers only setup masking for the three common formats routinely.

- Carsten

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-24-2013, 11:16 PM:

WB has been doing this strangeness for decades -- in their Loony Tunes collection on laserdisc, some of the cartoons open as you'd expect, full frame Academy, but others, for some inexplicable reason, have the opening WB concentric circles logo and the opening music in a pillared/letterbox -- correct aspect ratio but smaller and within the actual TV 1.33:1 frame. WTF?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-25-2013, 07:33 AM:

I carry with me screen files for all of the formats I've come across and typically load them in, even if a specific projector preset isn't going to be set up...think of them as pre-cut aperture plates.

I agree Carsten. I also know that the reality of mainstream cinemas is that often nobody is in the booth and things need to be more "standard" so Flat and Scope is what most can deal with. For our special venues, they get all of the formats they may run custom set up.

I also tend to clear out all of the channel, title, macros that they are not set up to use...It keeps the confusion level down. Also, if you have a server like Dolby that polls the projector...it won't show up with a bunch of cues that don't apply to the installation. One thing I like about NEC is if you delete a title off of a preset button...the white LED for that button number goes out.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-28-2013, 03:04 PM:

Frank--my only guess on that is that maybe the opening and closing titles were made without regard to the "title-safe area" and whoever transferred the film to video wanted to make sure that none of the titles were cropped due to overscan. That is sort of a weird way to solve that problem, though. In any case, just be thankful that they didn't stretch or crop the whole thing to 16x9.

As for my own DCPs, they are being re-done by the lab. We'll see what happens.

Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 12-31-2013, 01:34 PM:

Recently saw the windowboxed titles and credits on a bluray of It's a Wonderful Life

Posted by Jock Blakley (Member # 6552) on 01-01-2014, 06:09 AM:

We ran the Universal-issued DCPs of HORSE FEATHERS and DUCK SOUP a few days ago and both have windowboxed opening titles.

I've also seen it on a lot of Warner DVDs.

These two DCPs also had the current Universal tag on the head (in B&W at least, but still) and after the windowboxed material was done had the feature at almost 1.66 width. Nicely done.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-28-2014, 07:41 PM:

Ah-ha! The lab has confirmed that I was right about my DCPs being made with the wrong luminance range. To their credit, they apologized and are making new DCPs. The issue extended beyond just grey side pillars--the picture looked washed-out, too.

I am inclined to believe that this may end up being a problem in the future, though, with filmmakers and videomakers who have HD-to-DCP conversions done (my films went from 16mm->HDCAM->DCP; there was no DI, which would have been the preferable (and much more expensive) way of producing a DCP from film). No doubt this will start to be an issue at "film" festivals.

The irony of this whole thing is that my 35mm blowups look amazing and that the cost of shipping out a 35mm print (film print, reel, shipping case) of one of these shorts is less than the cost of shipping out a DCP (hard disk, CRU carrier, CRU USB adapter, and Pelican case). Yes, I know that this is a special case for a short film, but still somewhat amusing and depressing.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-28-2014, 08:16 PM:

For some shorts, we have had filmmakers email us with a URL and a temporary password. No shipping there.

Posted by Francois Bouzigues (Member # 8030) on 01-29-2014, 05:45 AM:

All formats smaller than 1.85 can use the same PCF. You just have to adjust masking depending on the parrallax you may have in your theater.

Posted by Gary Benn (Member # 7858) on 01-29-2014, 06:47 AM:

We play classics every month on DCP many of them would have originally been academy. But they are usually academy in a flat wrapper, IE it's played in flat and the dcp has black bars down the side to pad the sides.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 01-29-2014, 10:27 AM:

AFAIK nobody is disputing this.