Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: D-BOX rant

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-21-2013, 07:54 PM:

I'm not sure if this is in the right forum, but since D-BOX is a Digital technology, I suppose it will fit [Wink]

.

A whole new multiplex opened in the vicinity of my home. Their premium XD-branded theater features the whole shebang: a respectable Dolby Atmos install, huge (unfortunately) silver scope screen (but no masking), dual (for 3D) 4K projectors and... a few rows of D-BOX seats.

I've recently seen Riddick in this theater, which besides being a generally stupid movie, also doesn't have an Atmos soundtrack and is just a lousy 2K release. But, it does have a D-BOX motion code...

Since this movie couldn't benefit from all the important gizmos in the room, I decided to give D-BOX another shot. My first one was about two years back and I didn't like it back then... It looks like I didn't miss much, because I still don't like it. Quite the opposite, it's a distracting fad.

The first problem isn't really a D-BOX flaw, but those expensive premium semi-massage seats were installed way back in the theater, which negates the effect of the massive screen and the "added immersion" that D-BOX promises. I guess they were placed there, because having a bunch of shaking people in front of you will be rather distracting.

Then there is the realism of the movements of those chairs... The whole thing feels very artificial, especially the vibrations, it all feels a bit like the force feedback of a cheap game controller.

And then the biggest flaw of all: the motions and vibrations often are just stupid gimmicks that defy all sense of realism. The whole thing is being sold as some kind of motion simulator experience. But in a motion simulator (think of Star Tours), the motions are there to simulate the vehicle you're in. But a movie isn't a simulation, it's a story in picture and sound, usually with many different camera angles.

In addition to that, if you have long legs, like I do, you will have your feet on the ground most of the time, which negatively affects your experience even further.

In an effort to give the customer "value" for the large amounts of extra bucks he/she paid for this experience, every action on screen will yield some kind of stupid movement of your seat. Riddick farts, your seat will vibrate, somebody punching someone else in the face, your seat will make some random kick.

Conclusion: D-BOX will make your movie experience a total suckfest

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-21-2013, 08:38 PM:

I agree wholeheartedly, and my entire D-Box experience was a convention demo. We sat in the back row of a 3-row block of seats, and the people's heads moving and weaving in front of me about drove me bananas, and that was just during a couple of trailers. I can't imagine sitting through that crap for a whole movie.

The smart way to install DBox would be to put the seats in a row across the middle of the auditorium, and put an aisle behind those seats. Then put a wall at "head height" right behind the DBox seats, so the movements of the people's heads would be blocked by that wall for the people in the back half of the house.

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 09-25-2013, 08:38 PM:

I have only seen 3-4 films in D-Box so far. It varied from suck to okay. Out of my experiences, Real Steel had the best motion code and Harry Potter 7 pt2 had the worst. Maybe D-Box hasn't reached its full storytelling potential yet, but right now it's a gimmick.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 09-26-2013, 04:28 AM:

Ive demoed D-Box on two differenct occasions and the first time I didn't like it. The sensitivity or whatever was turned way up and it exaggerated the moves way too much. The secone time the movement was much more subtle and I actually really liked it. Now I really don't see it working in a commercial theater unless it was installed in a way like Mikes idea or put in the back. Way too distracting otherwise to other patrons. I think its best in a theme park type ride or a home cinema.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-26-2013, 12:44 PM:

I was hoping somebody else was going to ask, but since they haven't I will. What the heck is D-BOX?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-26-2013, 02:39 PM:

The seats move and vibrate according to a code embedded in the movie.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-26-2013, 03:10 PM:

"Movies with rectal stimulation!"

Posted by John Roddy (Member # 7348) on 09-26-2013, 03:36 PM:

D-BOX is nothing more than a gimmick if it isn't used properly. Some movies can really take advantage of it and add in to the experience. Others? Well, you get to pay a massive upcharge for pretty much nothing. Kinda like 3D, except more expensive.

The last movie I actually watched in D-BOX was Kick-Ass 2. The only thing that even made me remember that I was in a D-BOX seat was a little bit of vibration about halfway through during a later fight scene. Worth it? I'm really glad I got that show for free. Let's just leave it at that. Now take a movie like Fast 6 or maybe even the new Rush, and you have a totally different story. Movies like those prove to be really cool with D-BOX. For standard action movies, we have a really hard time filling the 30 seats we have installed. For the Fast and Furious franchise? We have a really hard time not filling them.

Posted by Sam Graham (Member # 2889) on 09-26-2013, 03:52 PM:

I haven't done D-BOX in a cinema (I did once in a home theatre showcase), but the installs I've seen have all been in the first couple of rows of the stadium tier...much more of a 'sweet spot' than the back of the auditorium.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-26-2013, 10:20 PM:

quote: John Roddy
The only thing that even made me remember that I was in a D-BOX seat was a little bit of vibration about halfway through during a later fight scene.

Maybe the "intensity" setting of the seat was dialed down? There are something like five levels of intensity, all the way from "none" to "vibrate the contact lenses right out of your head."

Posted by John Roddy (Member # 7348) on 09-27-2013, 02:23 AM:

The intensity on that seat was at max. The movie was just terrible for D-BOX. Actually, even without the D-BOX, it wasn't that good. Very underwhelming movie, overall. I was quite disappointed with it. The D-BOX code also reflected that.

It all goes back to whether or not the movie is suitable for D-BOX. We've had our system installed here for almost four years now, and I've only seen a handful of releases every year that I could even remotely imagine being somewhat decent in D-BOX. It's just a matter of finding the right one to watch. When it's done right, it really rocks (both literally and figuratively). But when it sucks, it sucks hard.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-27-2013, 07:54 AM:

How often do people get sick on this?

And do the seats make noise when the move/vibrate?

I have never seen this, but it sounds like the sort of thing that would be fun at an amusement park for a five-minute movie that was designed for the "ride." Probably not so much for a full-length feature.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-27-2013, 11:14 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
How often do people get sick on this?

I don't think too much people will really get sick on this, unless they weren't in a too good shape to begin with. My seat had an adjustable intensity setting, like Mike already mentioned. I don't know if all models have that or if all people know, but if you "dial it down" it will probably hurt nobody, even not the sensitive types. [Wink]

quote: Scott Norwood
And do the seats make noise when the move/vibrate?

I couldn't hear the other seats, so they are rather silent. They also had two demo seats in the lobby, you could feel the floor vibrate if you're near them and they sometimes made a very silent vibrating noise.

quote: Scott Norwood
I have never seen this, but it sounds like the sort of thing that would be fun at an amusement park for a five-minute movie that was designed for the "ride." Probably not so much for a full-length feature.

I largely agree on that one, but even for amusement rides, I don't really like this "single moving seat" style setup. No matter how you put it, the movements of your seats need to be very limited, or you will miss-align people with the screen.

What I'm wondering though is, who's responsible for the creation of the "Motion Code" for a "D-BOX enabled" release? Is it left to the movie creators, much like sound production is, no matter what format? Or is D-BOX actively involved in the creation of the "Motion Code" for a new release?

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-02-2014, 02:00 PM:

How many directions of movement can there be...Left, Right, Forward, Back, maybe bouncing up and down? And people complain that 3D is distracting when stuff is purposely throw at the audience for effect. Imagin the production design that requires lots of superfluous "motion" shots thrown just so they could vibrate the seats to make it worth the surcharge.

For the number of titles per year that could possibly benefit from this kind of thing, how could it possibly be a viable product? Just like Sensurround -- it was a massive system and it really only worked for EARTHQUAKE; and the handful of othersw where it was tried with little success. Really, how many movies can they possibly make about earthquakes, volcanos, maybe atomic bomb testing? Even changing the system to accomodate other types of rumble -- it never work nearly as well as it did for EARTHQUAKE because for that title, the rumble was externally generated. All the others titles tried to use the film soundtrack to contain the Sensurround audio along with the normal audio -- NASTY design; it was difficult to get it to function properly as it was very alignment-intensive so it didn't work correctly very often. I saw BATTLESTAR GALACTICA in Sensurround and every so often the deeper male voices would BLAST thru the Sensurround speakers...especially every "B" and "P" sound would explode like bombs; it actually was quite funny. Plus, any low end sounds near the Sensurround frequency threshold would create this strange low frequency ringing which kept you anticipating if that audio was going to break thru to the massive subwoofers.

I am sure in the digital world, the motion codes are easily embedded without fear of the seats rocking in the wrong places, but, the problem still remains that very few titles will benefit from this thing. Someone thinks this is a sure fire way to get people back into the theatres? Really?

Will Deebox be more or less successful as the Sensurround system? Remember that there was a large number of theatres which installed the Sensurround equipment -- those massive speaker enclosures and in some cases needing to make physical changes to the theatre to fit them in. It was all done for FOUR titles....four!

Switching theatre seats for a moment -- what is Deebox for home theatre that's been mentioned? Are there BRays that have Motion Cues encoded? Are there D-Box seats you can buy or do you get under-frame motors and such that you can install on regular home seating? I know they have subbass "kicker" transducers that you screw into the frames of sofas and recliners (if one were so inclined)-- evidently this is essential for people who have their heads (and ears) up their asses.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-02-2014, 02:18 PM:

Even Mr Bean found them lame until....
How to adjust the moving seats!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-02-2014, 02:58 PM:

If I was considering DBox I would make sure that every single other part of my equipment (Especially sound!) was as completely upgraded as possible before buying DBox. Can you imagine how lame an audience member would think it was if you saw a big explosion on screen, your seat rocked back from the "impact," but the sound only went "boom" instead of "BOOOOOM!"

Posted by Jason McMillan (Member # 5542) on 01-02-2014, 04:59 PM:

One of our locations had two rows of DBOX seats in a medium sized auditorium. They sold so poorly, we removed them and sent them to a theatre in another city that was just opening. They're doing mediocre business there. Frankly, the seats were so hard to police to keep people from sitting in those rows that didn't pay for them that I don't think anyone was upset to see them go.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-02-2014, 06:17 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
How many directions of movement can there be...Left, Right, Forward, Back, maybe bouncing up and down? And people complain that 3D is distracting when stuff is purposely throw at the audience for effect. Imagin the production design that requires lots of superfluous "motion" shots thrown just so they could vibrate the seats to make it worth the surcharge.

Nobody in his right mind would make a motion picture for general release targeted at D-BOX. The market is way to limited for that.

Furthermore, this whole concept is just bollocks for any normal movie I can think of. Those seats also don't qualify for any realistic theme park experience, because that should be focused on creating a real sense of motion. Those seats haven't anything near the freedom of movement required for that and your feet stay on the ground almost all the time. Maybe it works a bit better for kids, dwarfs, hobbits and short-legged people in general.

Besides that, the motion of those seats feels clunky and of rather low resolution.

This is nothing close to a motion simulator experience, it's even not comparable to the "movable" floor of Disney's Honey, I Shrunk the Audience (which got later converted back to Captain EO, although now with "movable" floor).

quote: Frank Angel
Just like Sensurround -- it was a massive system and it really only worked for EARTHQUAKE; and the handful of othersw where it was tried with little success.

I've never experienced the Sensurround system, but from what I've read and heard about it, I guess that many modern sound systems can probably generate sufficient sound pressure with "ordinary sub woofers" to get close to that effect and probably with much more flexibility and accuracy than just a pseudo-random rumble effect.

quote:
Can you imagine how lame an audience member would think it was if you saw a big explosion on screen, your seat rocked back from the "impact," but the sound only went "boom" instead of "BOOOOOM!"

And if you can really make it "BOOOOOM!", that effect will be much more realistic. The Atmos system in the room and the accompanying heavy sub array produced a much more realistic "rumble" than the sinusoidal rumble of those seats.

quote: Jason McMillan
Frankly, the seats were so hard to police to keep people from sitting in those rows that didn't pay for them that I don't think anyone was upset to see them go.

The theater that I visited that had them, uses reserved seating only. Their solution is rather straight forward: They only enable the seats that have been paid for.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 01-02-2014, 09:12 PM:

Home D-Box Information

More movies are encoded with D-Box than I would have thought.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-03-2014, 01:36 AM:

quote:
For the number of titles per year that could possibly benefit from this kind of thing, how could it possibly be a viable product? J

I have always maintained the idea that let the customers decide for themselves, after all they determine if something will be a success or not. I was reading some comments on other forums about D-box and some people actually like it.

One thing I am sure not a fan of is what AMC Prime is offering, recliners with subwoofers installed into them is ridiculous.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-03-2014, 02:54 AM:

Wow, Mark, you are right about that -- lots of big name titles, some of which I have. Funny, they certainly haven't marketed this system well at all. I asked around and even theatre people hadn't heard of consumer BRays having DuhBox encoding. My copy of JACK AND THE BEANSTALK which is listed as being a DuhBox title makes no mention at all of the feature. I would assume there would be no reason for dual BRay inventory, i.e., with and without the seat-kicking encoding.

Thing is, there are really only a very few titles in the list that I would guess could "benefit" from my seat pitching and yawing under me while the movie is going on. Seems that would be just about as distracting from the movie as if some kid were kicking the back of my seat. Does anyone really want to be jostled around when watching say, BORN ON THE FORTH OF JULY or ALL QUIETY ON THE WESTERN FRONT?

quote: Marcel Birgelen
I've never experienced the Sensurround system, but from what I've read and heard about it, I guess that many modern sound systems can probably generate sufficient sound pressure with "ordinary sub woofers" to get close to that effect and probably with much more flexibility and accuracy than just a pseudo-random rumble effect.

Marcel, I have seen EARTHQUAKE in Sensurround three times, all in different theatres, once in Chicago and twice in New York and let me tell you, I haven't heard any modern cinema system that can do what that system did. There were dozens of Cerwin-Vega 18in subwoofers in folded horn bins across entire width of the stage (all single screen rooms with stages at least 50-60ft width & nothing but bins you could practically walk into. There were vertical bins with fanned out mouths that were designed to couple the sound to the side walls of the theatre which were stacked floor to ceiling in either side of the proscenium, and then vertical bins stacked in both rear corners of the orchestra AND the balcony.

When this random low frequency rumble that represented the sound of an earthquake kicked in, you couldn't speak because the sound pressure was so intense that it made your voice sound like something was vibrating your neck and vocal cords. In fact, the sensation made you feel like your entire body was being buffeted and sympathetically vibrating with the rumble -- you felt this in the pit of your stomach and literally down in your gonads. It was VERY impressive and nearly viagra-esque.

In some theatres -- I think I heard it happened at Grauman's Chinese -- they couldn't play it at the spec level because it was knocking loose the plaster facade, not to mention loosening decades of dirt and debris that had collected in the ceilings and walls of those old houses. Not sure many modern cinemas could reproduce the effect as intensely as the original Sensurround system.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-03-2014, 03:33 AM:

quote: Mark Lensenmayer
More movies are encoded with D-Box than I would have thought.

There is a Wikipedia page that maintains a pretty complete list. Most "event" movies and many action/thriller movies have this D-Box Motion Code.

I'm still not sure who is responsible for creating that track, is this something done by the studio or is it something that D-Box does themselves?

From what I've experienced, it's not really very sophisticated, it felt like somebody randomly pulling on a joystick and pressing the rumble button every time something exploded. So I guess with a little training, you can create such a "mix" in a few hours...

quote: Frank Angel
In some theatres -- I think I heard it happened at Grauman's Chinese -- they couldn't play it at the spec level because it was knocking loose the plaster facade, not to mention loosening decades of dirt and debris that had collected in the ceilings and walls of those old houses. Not sure many modern cinemas could reproduce the effect as intensely as the original Sensurround system.

That doesn't really sound structurally safe to me [Wink]

. I guess you don't want to have such a system in your average multiplex either, because it will render the rooms next to it quite unusable.

It reminds me a bit of an experimental setup some years ago in one of the multiplex cinemas in the vicinity, where they put some large woofers below the wooden stadium seating floor. That probably didn't generate equal sound pressure levels in the room, but also caused a heavy rumble to permeate trough the room.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
One thing I am sure not a fan of is what AMC Prime is offering, recliners with subwoofers installed into them is ridiculous.

For me, that's about on the same level as D-Box. And I guess, there are sufficient signs that, once the novelty wears off, people will stay away in droves, especially if you need to pay a premium of up to $5 to $7 for the additional massage.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 01-03-2014, 10:25 AM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
One thing I am sure not a fan of is what AMC Prime is offering, recliners with subwoofers installed into them is ridiculous.

It may be ridiculous, but they sell these things for the Home Theatre crowd. Evidently in the consumer Home Theatre market the motto is, "Anything the multiplex can do, we can do better."

I give you The ButtKicker BK4-4

You screw this thing onto your couch or recliner frame and you're good to go; take THAT AMC!

Then there's this thing:
Porno Sensurround

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 01-03-2014, 11:27 AM:

Unless you've tried out something like the Buttkickers first-hand, don't knock it until you have. I installed them in my home theater chairs two years ago, and I like the effect, but as with anything like this, there is a time and a place for it, and less is more.

I wanted to try the concept out, as it seemed interesting. I wasn't expecting anything revolutionary, but I was curious, and thought it could be fun in certain situations.

I initially succumbed to the temptation that people first have when they get surround sound or a subwoofer, and I turned it up too high in order to "get the effect" as much as possible. Even the small one that I ordered could shake the hell out of my chair and there were some points where it bottomed out, which caused a really nasty metal-on-metal banging that immediately told me that I had gone too far.

There are two adjustments that are key with the Buttkicker. The first is the crossover frequency, so that you aren't getting voices and normal bass vibrating the chair. The second is the vibration level. By tweaking both of these with plenty of experimentation for what fits your personal taste, you can get a really cool effect that complements the LFE track nicely.

I would equate the proper setting to how surround sound was calibrated in the early days. If you notice it when it's on, it's too high. If you notice when it's missing, you've got it just right. Your natural expectation is that when you see an explosion on-screen and hear it, the floor should shake from the impact. Bass transducers like the Buttkicker are intended to reproduce that effect.

But the tech has to match the movie.

I don't turn them on for watching comedies or dramas, as that would be out of place. But when watching the latest action, sci-fi, shoot-em-up and blow-them-to-hell thrillers, they're a good addition to the theater.

Picking the right movie would be key to DBox as well, I would imagine (I've never had the opportunity to try them). You don't sit in a DBox seat to watch Saving Mr. Banks, but if done right, I could see it being a novelty for something like Fast & Furious.

The fact that people were trying to sit in the DBox seats without paying means that they were interested, just not in paying extra. Maybe they were just curious, but the interest was there nonetheless. The reports I've heard about DBox experiences was that the chairs were selectively powered if that reserved seat was purchased for the movie. That would prevent the problem of seat-jumping.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 01-03-2014, 11:47 AM:

IMHO, the D-Box thing is ridiculous. It's not what I consider a real motion simulator seat. True ride film seats do a hell of a lot more. These are gussied up regular movie theater chairs that just shake around a little bit. The price premiums being charged to sit in one of these seats is insane, particularly for the weak "MFX®" effect being delivered.

But I guess that's just my take on it. Quite a few movie theaters are installing D-Box seats, so there must be at least some segment of the movie-going public perfectly willing to get price gouged for it.

I'm not sure I get the point of seat-mounted sub-bass speakers either. On a technical point, wouldn't all those seat mounted subs in a AMC Prime theater cause some cancellation issues with the primary subs in the sound system? I'm just wondering.

Do you know what I consider impressive? A sound system with very clean yet tight, punchy sub-bass powerful enough to pound the air in your chest. That's one of the real marks of a truly well setup and maintained sound system. I don't care so much about feeling my seat move. Any sloppy, overly loud theater sound system can do that. Very few have the power to manipulate the air in your lungs. To be honest, I have yet to visit a stadium seated theater anywhere that has been able to deliver that. One theater that was able to do that, on a dependable basis: the old General Cinemas Northpark #1 THX screen in Dallas. That theater blew away all these alphabet soup labeled theaters in terms of overall sound quality.

Brad Miller's old screening room in Rockwall had so much bass power in it that it literally produced wind.
[thumbsup]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-03-2014, 11:51 AM:

I've tried Buttkickers (had to work with them in a screening room)...they are stupid. It is a subwoofer for people that don't want subwoofers.

If you like them...that is great...but they have nothing to do with how the movie was mixed. They add nothing to a system with a proper subwoofer system.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-03-2014, 02:55 PM:

Why don't they come out with seats that heat up when the movie is taking place in a hot environment and refrigerate during wintery
scenes?

(When this actually happens be sure to tell 'em it was your buddy Mike who first proposed it)

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-03-2014, 06:39 PM:

Great, reminds me of those heated seats you find in some cars.

I would propose an upgrade to those fridge&burn-o-matic seats:

Why not put a few big fans into the auditorium and add some remote controlled sprinklers too? Let's market it as: W-Box... We add just another useless track to movie releases and call it the W-Box Weather Code, for a total immersed experience.

Once we sold a sufficient amount of this junk, we add a "new" system, we pull Smell-O-Vision out of the box it was left to rot in, but now it's High Definition Digital! Let's call it: Smell-O-D or, maybe just Smell-Box, together with the Smell-Box Scent-Code. Looks like those unused DCP sound channels are finally being used for something useful!

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 01-03-2014, 10:43 PM:

How about the all-encompassing name "E-Box," for Environment.

Or to really sound hip, "iBox."

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-05-2014, 07:03 AM:

Yeah, let's go for E-Box, because iBox will be at least 5-times as expensive, just because of the additional legal fees [Wink]

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 01-07-2014, 10:44 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Do you know what I consider impressive? A sound system with very clean yet tight, punchy sub-bass powerful enough to pound the air in your chest. That's one of the real marks of a truly well setup and maintained sound system.

Interestingly enough, that's one of the things that our local LieMAX theater (AMC Mayfair Mall) has gotten right. You feel the bass at the right times, and I've not had any issues (like others here have had with IMAX screens) with the overall sound in that theater.

I stand by my opinion based on a year's worth of personal experience with the Buttkickers installed. Less is more, because it's only a part of the experience, not the entire one. If you turn it up to 11, you're going to get what you asked for.

Ideally, I'd like to push the amount of air in my home theater that it would take to create that lung-compressing amount of bass. There are two main problems with that: 1) the size and cost of a subwoofer that can deliver it, and 2) the fact that the theater room is in my house, and I'm already sending sound waves through the structure of my home.

These two issues are likely also what keeps many theaters from "doing the right thing" and installing such equipment. Most auditoriums aren't built to isolate regular sound much less sub-bass between adjacent rooms.

Bringing the post back on-topic, if the DBox seats aren't very expensive to install (don't know what kind of deals DBox strikes), and people want to sit in them and pay for the pleasure, why not? I've not been to a DBox-equipped theater, so I don't know how distracting the moving seats are to the surrounding patrons.

If it puts butts in the seats and adds some fun for the paying customers, why not? I could see putting these in the front row where most people aren't going to sit unless they have to anyway. Those that want the DBox experience will be filling seats that would normally go unfilled on all the busiest nights, and if an upcharge is imposed, it brings in extra revenue to boot. (Personally, I would think that an upcharge may not be necessary if the feature fills a seat that would otherwise go empty)

Does anyone know how the DBox deals work? Does DBox get a percentage of the upcharge? Are the seats leased or owned? Has anyone heard of actual figures on the payback?