Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 'Jesus Christ Superstar' DCP question

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Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 09:33 AM:

I know that the Astor Theater in August showed this and advertised 5.1 sound, but has anyone handled or played the DCP to actually confirm this? I know that the bluray hidef transfer from Universal pretty much trashed the 5.1 mix that was on the DVD and replaced it with a 2-channel sound. (why oh why??) All in all, it's a tad baffling why Universal would cull and retain the 5.1 soundmix for Jesus Christ Superstar's DCP and not for the bluray.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 10-21-2013, 09:44 AM:

Yeah like they did with The Thing and The Blues Brothers! [Mad]

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 10:06 AM:

but weren't the home video releases new 5.1 mixes since original audio for 'The Thing' and 'Blues Brothers' was 4.0 ?

Universal is very inconsistent in how they encode their DCP's audio wise, two that pop into mind are (and I'm sure there are others)

Jaws - DCP: 7.1 / Blu-ray: 7.1 + 5.1 + original mono mix
E.T. DCP: 5.1 / Blu-ray: 7.1 + 5.1 EX

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 10:38 AM:

I would imagine they wouldn't "mess around" with Spielberg DCP's.

BTW -- recent 35mm prints of "Jaws" had full 5.1 SRD

But Universal has earned a bad reputation for how they're handling sound on DCP's of their repertory titles.

Not just "The Thing" and "Blues Brothers" but also "Zoot Suit" and all of the old monster movies. This is (at least) the THIRD thread on F-T (that I'm aware of) dealing with concerns about DCP audio on rep titles -- and ALL of them trace back to Universal.

Granted, this thread is simply asking a question. But I'm sure there are a few of us who will "watch this space" for the answer.

Has anyone bothered to check those "7.1" versions to see if they really remixed them? Or did they merely duplicate Ls/Rs to the rear channels and call it 7.1?

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 10-21-2013, 11:54 AM:

We just played "The Tingler" with Vincent price. The DCP audio is mixed incorrectly for that film. According to the notes that came with the original Percepto seat tinglers, there are at least 2 scenes where the sound is supposed to leave the center speaker and move to the surrounds so that Vincent Prices voice and some screams are heard from inside the theatre instead of behind the screen. Unfortunately the sound mix was mono and we did not have time to figure out and practice a solution to move the mono sound to the surrounds and back quickly. Though now that i think about it we probably could have had the ap20 duplicat the front channels on the surrounds and left the amps turned down until the appropriate moment then turned down the center channel at that time. Or the person making the DCP could have made it as intended.

Posted by Frank B. McLaughlin (Member # 6683) on 10-21-2013, 11:58 AM:

FYI: Originally "SUPERSTAR" in 35mm mag was 3 channel.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 12:52 PM:

^ a 6-track mix was also created for 70mm engagement of the film.

when comparing the bluray to the first (5.0) DVD release of 'JCS' the placement of audio cues between the center-left and right-center is much more prominent and nuanced - it's essentially recreating the 5-front channel spread - the 2.0 bluray audio utterly fails in this respect.

~

in other related news - I couldn't tell if the DCP of 'Oliver!' was incorrectly encoded or played back wrong - but what I heard at Landmark E Street recently was a huge disappointment. My German bluray is 5.0 surround, the DCP I heard was 2.0 - heard back in two channel stereo made it sound way off.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 01:36 PM:

I don't know of any major releases that were mixed in "2.0" -- Left/Right only -- aka Lo/Ro.

The "2.0" that you heard was probably an Lt/Rt that was not decoded. And, if you were watching a DCP, they're not supposed to carry Lt/Rt mixes. DCP's of older "stereo" movies should carry either the original 4.0 master or (at least) the decoded Lt/Rt.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 01:49 PM:

but 4.0 can downmix to 2.0 - right? how and why would you not make the center channel a discrete channel in this day and age?

from blu-ray.com's review of 'Jesus Christ Superstar':
"Jesus Christ Superstar features a lossless DTS-HD Master Audio 2.0 that more than adequately recreates the theatrical exhibition's four track stereo soundtrack. Voices are very well mixed if perhaps a bit too far forward at times and there's some wide stereo separation that's evident from the first moments of the Overture. Fidelity is excellent and dynamic range is fairly wide."

now in terms of 'Oliver! - I really don't know what happened - if it was in encoded a 4.0, it certainly was not being played back as such, it was most definitely left and right speaker only - there was no center channel (... and no surrounds).

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 01:54 PM:

The Lt/Rt *is* a matrix/downmix of the 4.0 master. Formats like Dolby 04 and 05 (aka Pro-Logic) perform the opposite functions to decode an Lt/Rt back to 4.0.

Matrix encoding/decoding was the only way of getting that many (hi-fi) tracks into the space reserved for the analog-optical soundtrack (without re-engineering the whole 35mm format).

For DCP's they can and should provide the discrete tracks. There's no reason not to.

These studio people need to make up their minds whether or not they want "unmanned" booths because in 5-10 years' time, there won't be many people working in theatres who will know anything about Lt/Rt's and what-not.

And, besides, the DCI spec calls for routing the channels to discrete speaker locations. Channel 1 is to be routed to the far-left speaker, etc.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 02:14 PM:

^ just out of curiosity, what "channels" on DCI compliant audio processors factor in center/left and center/right discrete sources, when and if mixers were to resurrect five front stage mixing.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 02:20 PM:

I'm not sure if it has changed, but it used to be the 4th pair -- channels 7 & 8.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 10-21-2013, 02:25 PM:

With these incorrectly produced 2.0 DCPs, would one even be able to send that signal to a matrix decoder like a CP650 easily?

We show a lot of rep stuff, and I have a feeling down the line it's gonna happen to us too. It hasn't that I know of as of yet.

AJG

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 02:39 PM:

For me, it requires a temporary re-wiring.

Normally, our DCP audio goes directly to the Digital I/O option card in the CP650.

To accomplish Lt/Rt decoding, I have to temporarily rewire
DSS200 > DMA8plus > CP650
and apply programming to engage the Pro-Logic decoding on the DMA8plus at the appropriate time (some trailers are multichannel)

Note that the DSS 200 doesn't provide "built-in" programming for Pro-Logic versus Discrete on the DMA8plus -- so I accomplish that via Crestron.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-21-2013, 07:07 PM:

The AP20 has a software format option to accomplish that.

One is for ES type matrix encoded surrounds - LS/RS matrix decoded to LBS/RBS, the other for Lt/Rt Matrix encoded mixes on L/R channels (+optional bass enhancement)..

How do you actually tell a plain stereo mix that will create 'some' action in the surrounds and center from a dedicated matrix encoded Lt/Rt mix if there is no clear indication?

- Carsten

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 10-21-2013, 08:55 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
How do you actually tell a plain stereo mix that will create 'some' action in the surrounds and center from a dedicated matrix encoded Lt/Rt mix if there is no clear indication?

I guess you don't know "for sure."

But, if it's a "major" repertory title, and the optical tracks were known to be Lt/Rt, then the 2.0 is probably the Lt/Rt.

I go into the theatre and listen during the test-run decoded versus discrete -- so far, all of the repertory titles (from Hollywood) have decoded properly -- there *have* been a few low-budget/independents/student films that didn't decode well, so I played those as Lo/Ro.

If the repertory title was known to be mono, then I will listen to the 2.0, watch the meters, and try my best to figure out if it's simply a "dual mono" situation or, perhaps a remix -- if it is dual mono, I don't decode it -- I simply route track 1 to the center channel (and ignore track 2).

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-21-2013, 11:11 PM:

got this little bit of info off of Ted Neeley's facebook page:

"unfortunately no, the DCP is not in 5.1 surround... it's a remastered 2.0 digital stereo mix with a correct left/right pan mix. Ted is trying to supervise a true 5.1 surround mix with Universal. Hopefully soon...thanks for asking! - Team Neeley"

not sure if this means the DCP and/or the bluray will be corrected - hopefully both. But still, for the lead actor to step in and say to Universal that the mix needs to be fixed, is aptly both embarrassing and hopefully a wakeup call to Universl to stop creating shoddy, faulty DCP (and blurays) that don't reflect how a movie should sound it's best.