Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC 1100 Digital Projector

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Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 10-26-2013, 09:57 AM:

I had the opportunity to go to the Show East Trade Show this week. All the major equipment companies were represented as usual. NEC had their new 1100 digital laser projector set up. Watched a demo on it & was very impressed! Short throw to a modest sized screen. Brilliant picture, vibrant colors. All at only 30% power. Laser module life estimated to be (6) years. Operates on 220 VAC. That is NOT too shabby! And yes. This model still has the famous NEC tail lights top rear. Although not approved for sale in the US yet. Final FDA & DCI approvals expected in the first quarter of 2014.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-26-2013, 11:00 AM:

Any word on the estimated price? I have heard something like 150.000 US$ - which would be ridiculous for a 2k/5000Lumen/1600:1 machine.
I hope the contrast spec was just 'made up' and is not real. These 1600:1 would be less than the mediocre S2k machines. Don't see how the 6 years laser module lifespan could make up for these other aspects in a DCI context.

- Carsten

Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 10-26-2013, 02:44 PM:

And, I neglected to say, no need for exhaust venting either. Very low operating temperature. Overall size of their model 900 projector.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-26-2013, 04:09 PM:

Carsten...

Thate's no way it can cost that much. The Christie Laser Projector going into Seattle Cinerama was in the 140K price range. I expect this to be in the 40k to 50k price range tops. If it isn't then very few will be sold...

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-26-2013, 06:24 PM:

All 3 of the major manufacturers will have similarly capable and priced projectors. Just wait it out a little bit. Until the cost of operation with laser is LESS than with xenon lamps, unless you are trying to light some monstrous sized sheet, laser projection is foolish. Its more proof of concept at the moment.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-26-2013, 07:59 PM:

Did you say 5000 lumen or 50000 lumen? That is a 10:1 difference. If it is 5000 lumen, then one would be foolish to every buy it. A 6 year life cycle on the most expensive part of the projector will NEVER pay for itself. An NC900C gets 3000 hours on (and I'm being on the real expensive side here) $1000.00 for lamps. So lets say you run grind and only get a year on a set of lamps. In 6 years, you spent $6000 (and I'm telling you street price is less than that)....You are at half of Mark's optimistic look of about $50K for sticking with a comparable "lamp" based projector.

Brad is right...this is proof of concept stuff. The only way things could make sense is for the very large screens where xenon becomes not cost effective (lamps that last just hundreds of hours and cost thousands of dollars).

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 10-26-2013, 08:56 PM:

Apparently the NC1100L is 5,000 lumens. They've also been talking about an upcoming NC1040L model, that can accommodate two or more laser light units to boost the light output in a linear fashion. The "lamp" life is estimated at 20,000 hours.

Some links (sorry for not including the full text of all three articles):
Jun 24 press release (NC1040L, amongst other stuff)
Oct 21 press release (NC1100L)
Sep 26 Manice article (NC1040L)

According to the Manice article, a NC1040L setup with two light units, adding up to 10,000 lumens, would sell for 100,000 euros = around 140,000 USD.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-27-2013, 12:10 AM:

Then once again, it is stupid option. Using the nice and easy $1000/lamp number. At 3000 hours, that would be 7 lamps or $7000 (and it will be less). The cost difference is FAR more than that spread. At 10,000 lumens...in an NEC...that puts you in an NC2000C running their bottom-end 4KW lamp (of the "approved lamps)... and again, it is FAR, FAR cheaper to run xenon.

If one is not trying to get over 25000 lumens, until lasers get a lot cheaper, they are bad money. If you are putting in 6-8KW xenons, then lasers make start to make the financial argument. Unless you are running Dolby 3D. With lasers, Dolby 3D doesn't need the filter wheel so its light output should more than double and be in competition for the brightest 3D, ironically.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 10-27-2013, 04:20 AM:

Interesting. Why Dolby 3D doesn't need the wheel with lasers?

Posted by James Crowley (Member # 7299) on 10-27-2013, 05:32 AM:

I haven't seen any kind of laser upgrade feature. What about all the multiplexes kitted with nc1200,2000.... Etc. Are we supposed to buy brand new projectors if we want laser?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-27-2013, 06:31 AM:

Because, with Lasers, you have the color of the light you need right from the light source itself...no need for filtering...you aren't starting with white and trying to remove the bits from each eye...just put out what you need.

As for the NC1200-NC2000 it isn't a valid concern...why would you ever want lasers? it is far, far cheaper to stay with xenon, as in 10s of thousands cheaper. Before lasers get cheap enough to compete with xenon on that scale, you projector will probably be heading for the scrap heap due to the high cost of upkeep. That is something that we are just starting to see. Where the repair costs for most anything on DCinema projection is quite expensive. And these companies don't seem to be too concerned about "repairing" they are about just replacing what breaks.

Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 10-27-2013, 09:07 AM:

Couldn't agree more. Definitely a wait & see game. Laser will be expensive & uncertain investment at this time. Would have to come into line with xenon pricing to compete. Was a great looking picture!
Also looking into the NEC 1200 projector which uses the twin sodium vapor lamps. Again, no exhaust venting required. Low operating temperatures. Good on smaller screen (up to 25 ft). I am told that by changing to a high gain screen (2.2) up to 35 ft. Any thoughts along those lines?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-27-2013, 09:31 AM:

According to some sources, the 5000Lumen spec reflects the current laser regulations. They would not be able to sell it for operation in public with more brightness under current regulations.

While there have been prototype LIP demonstrations by every manufacturer, I'm really wondering why NEC now comes out with a ready-to-market device with these mediocre specs? Just to show off?
However, the 1600:1 contrast spec bothers me most...

IMAX/Barco are getting more specific towards their first IMAX LIP installations in 2014, which are said to be dual 4k projection setups. While manufactured by Barco, they seem to follow the KODAK dedicated LIP design (IMAX acquired KODAKs LIP patents), not Barcos own retrofit LIP design demonstrated earlier.
Hence IMAX quotes a 8000:1 contrast spec. And since for now these LIPs are only intended for IMAX' largest screens (now still on 15/70), they will probably be in the 50.000+ lumen range (single projector).

Now, THAT makes sense, replacing two extremely expensive 15kW Xenon bulbs, but the NEC at 5000 lumens, I don't get it...

@Kerry: The dual NSH lamp unit is the NEC900C. The 1200 uses Xenon like the rest of the DLP family. I am nearly sure the NC1100L is 'just' a NC900C with a laser illumination addon, see images:

NC900C: http://www.astera.ru/news/images/2012/2012_06_21/NEC_NC900C.jpg
NC1100L: http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/1100l.jpg

Hence the same mediocre contrast number as all S2k machines.

Search the forum for NC900, there are some previous discussions.

- Carsten

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 10-27-2013, 11:37 AM:

List price seems to be 38.000 $.
Not terribly bad in comparison with the 900C, but it all depends on how long the laser engine will really be able to work/remain in spec and how much it will cost to get a new one.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-27-2013, 12:13 PM:

Now, that's a different number...

- Carsten

Posted by Kerry Fleming (Member # 1657) on 10-27-2013, 12:23 PM:

My mistake. I meant the model 900C. Sorry.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-27-2013, 12:58 PM:

I totally agree this is a concept machine but they will still sell them to who ever bites the bait. They would primarily be used in places where there is no maintanance available.

And Steve G. The NC-900 lamps are no where near the 1K price you stated... They are actually priced more near to a 2KW Cinema Type Lamp. Plus there is another less expensive option for that lamp availale as well. I have had one lamp fail so far out of about 20 some NC-900's installed. Seal failure happened at 458 hours. The show kept right on playing and the customer popped in another lamp to replace the failed one as the show was running.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-27-2013, 01:14 PM:

Well, if the 38.000US$ stays true, that is a rather cheap way to boast '!!!!DIGITAL LAZZZZR PROJECTION!!!!' over your single screen second-run.

- Carsten

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 10-27-2013, 05:35 PM:

By the way, what's that lens hood? Some kind of removable glass shield for boothless setups?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-27-2013, 06:17 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I totally agree this is a concept machine but they will still sell them to who ever bites the bait. They would primarily be used in places where there is no maintanance available.

There is a whole lot more than just a bulb to fail in a digital machine. [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-28-2013, 03:23 AM:

Of course there is. Am still waiting for something other than a circuit breaker switch to fail in one of them!

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 10-28-2013, 05:13 AM:

The hood is a safety requirement due to the laser. The chassis is slightly wider than the "baby" NEC. Within the box the laser light source and power supply swap locations compared to the "baby". The unit runs very cool, next to no heat detectable on the metal top. Contrast typical of small chip series....

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-28-2013, 07:42 AM:

We are at a time when most cinemas have either:

1. Recently installed expensive digital projectors.
2. Are about to do so.
3 Are closing down or ceasing to show films because they cannot afford to do so.

Is this a good time to be launching a different type of new expensive projector?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-28-2013, 11:52 AM:

It is if you need some lead time to get the DCI to declare in mandatory [evil]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-28-2013, 02:22 PM:

Stephen.... The new designs do make sense for the long haul and Laser is the future... there will also be laser retrofits for many existing projectors. It wouldn't be practical for many of my customers to own this though. I have some locations running one show a night and two a day on weekends that will be getting three years out of a set of NC-900 lamps...

Posted by Mohd Ridzuan (Member # 7054) on 10-30-2013, 11:39 PM:

Hi All,

Did anyone knows where to get firmware updates for NEC. Any link or person contact to get an account? I've tried email to NEC but after 3 days there's ni reply at all. I need ti update my NECs as the firmware outdated.

Thanx FT,

Wan