Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: boothless cinema

This is topic boothless cinema in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001696

Posted by Mohamad Nasir Jumadi (Member # 7853) on 11-12-2013, 08:48 PM:

Hi guys, my company intends to create a boothless cinema but since we are new to the boothless idea, we are quite unsure on how the layout should be. What i could provide is that we will be using Barco 2K-xxC series projector, with GDC servers and Dolby CP 750 processor. I am open to suggestion regarding the matter, though what my company is thinking is that the sound rack will be placed behind the screen. Any suggestion guys?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-12-2013, 09:22 PM:

Suggestion: Fix your location information. "Singapore, singapore / singapore, singapore" isn't going to win you any respect around here.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 11-13-2013, 02:47 AM:

DCI projectors are loud so you have to keep that in mind. Might hafta to build a box around the projector with ventalation and an access panel.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 11-13-2013, 04:51 AM:

To don't have projection room give's you save in space and less construction issue, therefor less money on start....probably?

But, to have booth get you far way better operation condition for equipment like easy maintence of projector, replacing parts and xenon lamps, space for audio rack, servers, way better ventilation of all components and less noise in room.

Without room you still need to find place for audio rack, data storage, etc....also booth can be used as storage for replace parts, lamps etc......

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 11-13-2013, 06:55 AM:

Also makes it easier for a technician to work on the equipment. Similar to machine roomless lifts which we have one of. Much prefer the ones with a propper machine room.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-13-2013, 09:42 AM:

I can't support this idea at all.

Posted by Jure Maticic (Member # 7197) on 11-13-2013, 01:46 PM:

There's a whole section on boothless cinemas in the Cinema Technology magazine.

The link: http://emag.cinematechnologymagazine.com/index.aspx?issue=issue20

Jure

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-17-2013, 11:39 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
I can't support this idea at all.

Same here.

Too many issues arise without a booth:

Projector noise, serviceability, ventilation issues, subject to damage/vandalism/tampering, increased wiring costs, etc.

And where exactly will the servers be located?

If you were to look at the REAL, ACTUAL, total costs of the increased HVAC, Enclosure, electrical, mechanical requirements of a boothless setup for ANY number of screens I gaurandamntee you that it will cost MORE in the initial build AND ongoing operational costs than putting in a simple booth. (A LOT cheaper to build a single wall with a single port than to deal with all the other nonsense of boothless.)

Think about it, seriously.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-18-2013, 01:43 AM:

Christie offers a "projector-in-a-box" solution, including a lift that lets you lower the projector for maintenance. I've never seen the thing with my own eyes, but they do have a promotional video.

But seriously, I also do think this whole concept is a bad, shortsighted idea after all.

Besides the fact that you still need space to accommodate stuff like amplifiers and (storage) servers, bring the whole wring to this box and provide sufficient sound proofing and ventilation to that same box, there are tons of other potential problems:

- What if there is a failure during the show that cannot be fixed remotely? In that case, you need to have technicians work inside the auditorium. You probably even need to evacuate part of it too.

Also, this whole DCI stuff seems to be rather short-lived compared to the good ol' film stuff, so keep in mind that you need to upgrade your equipment within the foreseeable future:

- What if you want to install a new projector? Does that fit in the same box?
- What if you want to install a second projector for stuff like brighter 3D? Or maybe a transition to a new system?

In your particular setup, you want to put the sound rack including the processor behind the screen:
- What if you want to upgrade your sound system? With your sound equipment behind the screen, you now potentially need to run new cabling from your projector to your sound rack.
- What if your CP750 craps out and needs a manual intervention? Or one of your amps has a problem? Do you have easy access behind the screen?

To me, this whole boothless thing sounds like a maintenance nightmare, especially if you go with that lift thing, which seems to be the only solution that makes some sense. Once that thing is in the box, there is no simple way of moving it and for every intervention, you need to lower it. Even simple things like fixing the RGB convergence (which cannot be done remotely with current projectors I know off) become a maintenance nightmare. Also, you now introduce yet another component that can fail: the lift itself...

And indeed, a booth isn't just wasted space, because you can use it to put your servers, your sound equipment, spare parts and even other stuff you want to keep safe, that hasn't anything to do with your booth operations.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-18-2013, 02:17 AM:

Just another way to make cinema rooms look like nothing more than living room with a video projector stuck in it OR worse, reminiscent of what all those porn houses looked like when they took up video sin to stave off the inevitable -- the last death-rattle before they were buldozed over. They all had video projectors hanging from the ceiling.

A projection booth designed specifically to house a single digital projector needn't take up much space. It does not have to be the same size of the old film projection booths. And for all the reasons mentioned above, this is just one of those ideas that look good on paper but are bad in practice for all the reasons stated.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 11-19-2013, 03:18 PM:

I got a 35mm Vic5 and a Barco Digital setup with everything else in my projection room which measures 4m x3m . Even got aircon and powerful extractors. still room for my desk, chair and mini fridge!

it does not need to be a big room to be effective

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 11-19-2013, 05:36 PM:

I was once on the pro side of boothless cinema, but after being educated about the cons by those on Film-Tech, I am firmly on the con side now. The very few "advantages" that might be offered are heavily offset by the many disadvantages.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 11-19-2013, 09:03 PM:

You can probably get the best of both worlds by making an individual booth for each auditorium that takes up the middle area of the back few rows. Access would be from the auditorium but there would be room for the projector, sound rack, servers and access for a technician. Just keep the port hole high enough so that people can't make shadow puppets like the 1980s AMC design.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-19-2013, 10:54 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
this is just one of those ideas that look good on paper but are bad in practice for all the reasons stated.

And for another reason -- part of the "mystique" of the movie theater is that little series of windows at the back of the auditorium, from one of which emanates the bright light. There's something very cool about that little port window in the back, not knowing what's behind that wall and not knowing exactly how the picture arrives to the screen.

Posted by Geoff Newitt (Member # 6663) on 11-28-2013, 09:07 AM:

We've now built a couple of 'boothless' cinemas, and converted the mini screens at another. It can work quite well, but you really have to take care to get it right. We count 'projector cupboards' as boothless, since access is strictly for service only.

We always include a 'control room', which as a minimum contains CP750s; alterntive content sources, switching and scaling; CCTV monitoring; tie line patchfields and associated mixers etc; TMS. For our first attempt, we also included servers and power amps. This didn't work terribly well and did cost a lot in cabling. So more recently we've moved servers and power amps into the projector enclosures. Personally, I'm not terribly happy with the idea of putting the amps behind the screen - they're just too easy to get at.

The principal issues are access, noise and cooling.

Access is probably the most difficult, where projectors are mounted at high level. Even in this circumstance, we try to make the enclosure big and strong enough to climb up into it and at least to be able to 'crab' or crawl around up there. Not always possible, of course. We also try to make the enclosure the full width of the auditorium - it looks better, means you can have the access hatch over an aisle and well away from the noise producing equipment, which helps. (Getting large pieces of kit in and out is no fun, it must be said!)

Cooling - you can't skimp here; vent lamphouse exhaust to the outside world if you can, obviously. Use a HVAC engineer you trust, and remember that it takes - perversely - more power to cool a small enclosure than a large one (within limits).

Noise - you just have to treat the enclosure as a 'miniature room' and build it to the same standard.

Is it cheaper? No, probably not. But there are other advantages - we got plenty of extra leg room without losing too many seats by demolishing the projection rooms in the conversion. One of the new builds just couldn't have happened if we'd had proper projection rooms - we tend to specialise in taking over old buildings and renovating them into cinemas.

Is it the right solution in every situation? No. We're building a cinema with a multiplex style mezzanine floor late next year, because in this case it works better.

One day I'll get round to uploading a bunch of photos...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-28-2013, 11:52 AM:

I recently spoke with a friend of mine that handles the construction for a theatre chain where they tried boothless. What they found was that by the time you put in a lift/elevator system and sound proof enclosure, ventilation...etc...the cost savings just weren't there to justify it. The "booth" or whatever you want to call the mezzanine floor...which need not be connected, just didn't add any significant amount over making a bunch of boothless systems. Then, when it comes to servicing the equipment, it was a slam dunk on it being a bunch cheaper (less time) to have a projector one can get to.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-01-2013, 03:46 AM:

I'm in a new plex with such (all BARCOS): hatches in the ceiling above the VIP entrances containing the 32B units.

In the screen server room of one house, 16ft above this equipment on a platform sits a DP2K-15C unit-takes a ladder to get up to it.

Next house over, the BARCO sits on a sliding platform that comes out of the wall (I have three houses like this.

Two on elevator riser platforms that rises into its own enclosure, and two in actual closets on the upstairs VIP section which is the easiest to work on.

Rest of them located in the VIP section in the middle of the lower row completely enclosed and sound proof with seats on eith side. To work on these units entails lifting the top of the enclosure, and operating a hydraulic motorcycle work platform to raise and lower the unit that sits on this platform.

Definitely have my work cut out for maintenance sessions.

Oh, doing the modules for the 23B and 32B units takes two of us - me on top pulling the module out while on a ladder, then inching down on the ladder and handing the module down to my helper. Task in reverse on reinstalling the module.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-01-2013, 10:13 AM:

As I said...the alleged savings diminish with each and every day of ownership.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-01-2013, 12:43 PM:

Monte, just you wait until you have to change a backplane in one of those ridiculous boothless "booths". Let us know how long it took, how many shows were lost, how many people had to get involved, etc.

quote: Steve Guttag
the alleged savings diminish with each and every day of ownership.

That really is the bottom line here.

quote: Steve Guttag
the alleged savings diminish with each and every day of ownership.

And it needs to be repeated.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 12-02-2013, 09:10 AM:

quote: Geoff Newitt
Remember that it takes - perversely - more power to cool a small enclosure than a large one (within limits).

I am by no means an HVAC specialist, but I am definitely confused. Please explain.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-02-2013, 12:06 PM:

A large room takes much longer to warm up and probably has more natural heat dissipation.

I don't know if you will need that much more HVAC, but in case of a failure, you will definitely run into problems much sooner in a smaller room.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-02-2013, 12:54 PM:

Put an oven in a small closet at 70 degrees. Open the door to the oven. Crank it to broil. How long did it take to heat the closet to 90 degrees?

Now put the oven in a typical sized projection room. Open the door to the oven. Crank it to broil. Now long long did it take to heat the booth from 70 to 90 degrees?

Tiny projector boxes are a really foolish idea.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 12-02-2013, 08:47 PM:

Luckily, a smart design was created with ours: a big hole was cut below the units, which happens to be the ceiling in the same server rooms for the units above and an exhaust fan at the end of the room pulling out the air from both - the racks and the BARCOS over these holes.

Even still, ever felt all of the hot air that boils out of the back of a "C" series BARCOS? Their wasn't any design factor in the exhaust system to aid in pulling out this added hot air, which could have easily engineered and constructed since most of these units have rear end exhaust stacks instead of the traditional top exhaust.

I know, Brad - waiting for when I have to replace the rectifier units in some of these BARCOS where the entire unit have to be lifted up to get to the back ... but, it's not my problem-my hands are clean of this..it's what the building designer ordered and has no idea on this stuff.

A typical case of a boardroom decision where the technicians were not invited in the final say.

-Monte

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-02-2013, 09:17 PM:

The only version of this that I have seen is in a hotel, of all places. There is an existing fully equipped 35mm projection booth in that venue (which, in a previous incarnation, was a full-time movie theatre), but the hotel wanted to be able to divide the space in half by means of a curtain and still use the D-cinema video projector in the front half of the space. As a result, they ended up with a custom-built wooden box suspended from the ceiling, with a Christie CP2210 inside of it and a custom-built exhaust system for the heat.

The setup sort of works (the Christie touch panel and Doremi server are in the projection booth, along with the 35mm equipment), except that the box is not particularly soundproof, and replacing a lamp or doing any other maintenance requires rolling in a man-lift, which could never be done with an audience in the theatre (it would block an exit).

This was probably the right thing to do for this special-venue location, but it really is not the sort of thing that would ever make sense in a commercial cinema. The only exception that I could imagine would be if the existing booth is very cramped and there is a need to keep the film projectors in place, but, even then, it would be a bad compromise.

Not being able to service the machine easily in the event of trouble will someday result in lost shows and unhapy patrons, which is something that no theatre owner wants.

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 03-21-2014, 10:02 AM:

What's the current state of "boothless cinema," remote control rooms (including servers, sound processors, etc.), and behind-the-screen amplifiers?

In general, is the distance between the sound processor and the amplifiers becoming significantly larger than the typical few meters?

If so, what percentage of screens currently have a significant distance between the sound processor and the power amplifiers?

Is this percentage increasing?

THANKS!

Harold

Posted by John Eickhof (Member # 323) on 03-21-2014, 11:59 AM:

Along with Monte, the theatre I manage is basically boothless too..I do have 6 out of 13 Barcos in what used to be the old booth from the original six screen, but, the floor has been raised (to get more ceiling height in the hallway below) So there is approx 4-ft room height w/ all the electrical conduits, & ductwork running rampant through it! So I have to crawl upwards of 200 feet to get to the farthest projector! If I try and duck-walk, I get too many cuts on the head from overhead piping! (I'm 6'4"!) The rest of my projectors are in soundproof boxes that the projector is lowered down by a hand winch that takes two people to do, one to get on a ladder and pull safety pins, the other to lower / raise the platform with the winch that is located behind the screen! Then when the projector is down a few feet the exhaust, power, Cat 6 & BNC connections have to be pulled so they can be lowered far enough down to service!(not enough service loop) Then the opposite is in store when returning the machine to operating position!! Plus, they don't register the same in the box every time so we have to reset the lens files after every service! My one and only 32B is located in a doghouse on the mall roof! Accessible only by a hatch in the wall about 8ft above the last row! Try placing a ladder and climbing in there when there is an issue with the projector and there is a full house! Been there, done that!! Not fun! I built a spacer out of 2x4s so I could pull the lowered projector out from the wall far enough to be able to replace power supplies! (Done this 3 times now on different machines!) Needless to say, I am am very opposed to any 'boothless' type installation!!! To address the issue of sound...most of my systems are running 200-300 feet of speaker line from the amps !! They did install twisted 2 pair #10 jacketed plenum wire so we don't have any crosstalk issues, but the power loss and sound delay was another interesting factor, as well as the installers had to install wifi so the EQ could be done as most of the Dolby CP-750s are hundreds of feet away from their respective theatres!! Plus, I have a 200ft plus run of analog sound from a cable box to the CP-750!! for our special events!! I used the best Belden shielded cable I could get, and it actually sounds pretty good!!

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-21-2014, 01:02 PM:

Is Carmike Cinemas going the boothless route in their new theaters? I was doing some image searching through Google related to premium priced theaters and found a few like the image below at new Carmike theaters:

This image was reduced in size according to forum limits, but the original high resolution image can be found pretty quickly through Google Images.

Obviously Carmike is copying a visual I've seen at a few film-based IMAX theaters (dome screen theaters in particular) where a bunch of the booth gear is on the ground level behind glass windows for the movie-goers to see. In this case it's all the servers, cinema processors and amplifiers. Numerous pipes and conduits rise from those racks leading to the projectors, speakers, etc. But are the projectors in a traditional booth or are they hanging from the ceiling in the auditoriums or crammed into some other hard to access compartment? Either way it looks like a real pain in the ass to keep all that wiring organized during installation.

One thing I do like about that approach of putting the booth racks behind windows for customers to see is it gives the theater another way to market sound and projection presentation to the movie-goers. The average person can see that isn't the kind of hardware you could pick up at Best Buy. Of note: this must be the AV rack room at the Carmike 13 in Champaign, IL. It's the only theater Carmike has that is equipped with Dolby Atmos. The nearest three or four racks in that image hold the Dolby Atmos related gear (most of it being amps). I like the visual touch of them adding Big D Experience and Dolby Atmos lighted signs above those racks.

One downside to this approach: if Edith Hinklebottom comes out to complain to the manager about the sound being too loud, she might stand outside that booth rack room to make sure the manager turns down that sound fader.

I can't help but wonder if boothless cinema is really a ploy to further reduce theater staff. If the projectors are stuffed in the auditorium ceilings or other little cubby holes and the booth racks are all concentrated into one room then maybe the manager's office can be built downstairs in the lobby. There's no need to have an upstairs area at all where the GM or any assistants could hide and potentially goof off. They can stay downstairs popping popcorn, selling tickets, counting drink cups and other inventory related stuff and lessen the need for all those high school kid workers bloating those payroll numbers.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-21-2014, 01:08 PM:

The best of the booth less cinemas I have seen yet is the Aksarben Cinema in Omaha. I believe it's ten or twelve screens.

They built a large-central glass enclosed room just past the ticketing stand that houses all the support equipment, minus projectors of course. They also did long speaker runs from the amplifiers to the auditoriums and all the cabling is running all over the ceiling in cable trays that are perfectly visible to the folks attending the place, sort of as though they tried to make the cable trays part of the open ceiling design. The longest run there is just over 400'! Some of the cable trays are lit up with blue LED's so it looks kinda cool.

When it came to the projectors, they did it the right way. No booth or mezzanine but there is an individual closet at the back of each auditorium that houses the projector and the port is in the door itself. Each projector was mounted in a slide out tray with a lazy susan turntable on it. So you slide the projector out and then rotate it to change the lamp or to work on the projector. Strong custom built the slide out trays for the chain. These slide out trays were uber heavy duty and had pins to relocate their exact position. No after the fact re- adjustments are necessary.

I have many pictures of the Aksarben Cinema and I will post as time permits.

As for the ceiling lift devices. It's probably the dumbest thing anyone ever came up with. In the majority of theaters the ceiling is the dirtiest place in the entire building. Just the necessary frequent cleaning of the Barko air flters has to be a nightmare. I'd be coming up with some sort of retrofit Heppa filters for those projectors in a hurry!!

I grabbed this picture of the Omaha location off the net and lowered the contrast a bit so you can see the long cable tray on one side. They actually sent the dual HDSDI over 400'.

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-21-2014, 06:12 PM:

That looks more like an airport car rental area than a movie theater.