This is topic More USELESS nonsense in the world of digital cinema in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2013, 02:09 PM:
Here we are folks, yet another example of unnecessary wasting our time.
quote:
CATCHING FIRE US RELEASE
Dear Theatre Operator,
You have received your content for the US RELEASE of CATCHING FIRE.
(This is noted a second time because people in the US can't read the larger bold face text at the top of the page.)
quote:
Please ingest as soon as possible.
On average, it could take up to 24 hours to replace any faulty or damaged hardware or content, so we ask that you schedule a QC Screening as soon as possible after the keys unlock the feature.
Yes that is true. It could take up to 24 hours to replace a faulty drive...but they aren't referring to actually playing the ACTUAL file as a QC! Read on...
quote:
**THIS DCP CONTAINS THE FOLLOWING PARTIAL TEST PACKAGE WHICH MUST BE INGESTED IN ADDTION TO THE BASE FEATURE (below) IN ORDER TO PROPERLY QC THIS FEATURE PRIOR TO THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2013**
Ok now hold on. I'll let the whole misspelling of the word addition slide, but can someone please explain to me precisely HOW running this PARTIAL test package actually provides a REAL QC of the entire feature?
I'll give you a hint...it doesn't. Keep reading.
quote:
REEL 1 TEST - 5.1 CCAP PARTIAL PACKAGE: R1TestCatchingFire_TEST_S_EN-XX-CCAP_US_51_HI-VI-DBOX_4K_LION_20131106_DLA_IOP_VF
The special QC keys provided to you will NOT function and you will not be able to successfully QC this content prior to engagement without this partial package ingested.
Did everybody catch that? SPECIAL QC KEYS FOR A PARTIAL PACKAGE! Know what that means? Why I'll tell you. YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME QC'ing THIS THING AND SOMEBODY AT THE KEYMAKING COMPANY HAS FOOLED THE STUDIO INTO THINKING THIS IS SOME SORT OF ACTUAL VALID TEST. It proves NOTHING. That's like saying "yeah we just got the new Batman trailer that was encrypted with the feature drive for Hangover 4...so we played the Batman trailer and because that plays now we KNOW that the Hangover 4 will play." Really? Is this ignorance or just stupidity?
Even if the VF file IS referencing part of the actual feature package, that still doesn't prove that the ENTIRE feature is valid and doesn't have a corrupted spot later in the movie that would kill playback. Here's the thing though, this VF package is 18GB, so it isn't just referencing the actual feature DCP, it's a standalone DCP with it's own unique key, which best case senario ONLY confirms that the keymaker has your correct server certificate on file. But that's really only even helpful if your theater is brand new and opening with this movie. I'm pretty sure everyone here has received keys from Deluxe before and its all the same database and certificates. (The only exception here is Fox because they are so un-trusting they make their own keys and I have seen them have non-updated info.)
quote:
Also, please note that you will only be able to QC a portion of the feature. For QC purposes, after a limited period of time (specified by the studio), feature playback will abruptly halt.
Somebody actually please watch this thing and tell me if the playback conveniently halts at a key point to make the viewer leave the auditorium saying "OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG it's so awesome!!!" or if it just "abruptly halts" at a reel change.
quote:
If your sound and picture quality meet standards, please make sure to delete this partial package only from your playlist prior to your first showing.
Now seriously, who would build the playlist for the movie and ADD this to it? For example on a Dolby server it won't even load the playlist if there is a clip within it that isn't unlocked (such as the real feature). I wonder how much confusion that may cause.
Then there is the typical...
quote:
Once you have completed the QC, please email us at ddchelp@bydeluxe.com
...yeah, because the test was SOOOOOOOOOOO beneficial. Ummm, no.
I swear these people MUST get paid by the theater they can check off on each intance of "verifying" they got the drive, verifying they ingested it, verifying they got the key, verifying they ingested the key, verifying the key unlocked the content, verifying they QC'd the movie, blah, blah, blah.
Yet again the question must be asked, where is NATO actually doing something for the theaters amidst this nonsense?
And for those following along, the drives come with the original Hunger Games movie...newly re-packaged...because the original theatrical DCPs weren't good enough.
Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 11-14-2013, 02:51 PM:
quote: Brad Miller
the drives come with the original Hunger Games movie...newly re-packaged...because the original theatrical DCPs weren't good enough.
What do you mean by this?
Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 11-14-2013, 03:13 PM:
This post gave me my nuch needed daily laugh. Classic.
I have someone sitting next to me that I discussed this with and just the whole qc situation/therory they are running with currently and even he(not in the industry) was like "So they want you to QC it, yet the keys won't allow it? So it's all pointless?"
Yeah, basically.
Its even better when deluxe calls and asks if you've QCd it and you just say yes to get them off the phone because you have ACTUAL things to do at 7pm when they call rather than go on a rant on "How am I supposed to QC it when the key is valid at 11a Friday and it starts for the public at noon?" Only for them to say "Oh, I'm sorry about that. So have you QCd it yet?" "NO, ARE YOU RETARDED?!?"
Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 11-14-2013, 04:11 PM:
O c'mon! Whatta bunch of whiners!
As I recall, the claim was made that once digital cinema systems were forced into
every theater in the country, the skies would blue, birds would be singing and
the world would be a better place for all mankind. Hallelujah!
Digital cinema was never about quality, as some claimed. It was all about CONTROL.
You've given up your business to the digital cinema dictators & gods.
They now control everything you do. They can now control when and what you play,
and even what equipment you must play it on. They watch & log everything you
do and will send threatening letters to those not 'in compliance' with the
New Digital World Order.
Not since the Nazis marched into Poland and France has there been a more
succussful takeover of private industry and art. And you all fell for it.
At least < I > tried to stop it. I put on my best tin-foil hat and wrote to congress.
But they were too busy raising taxes and dealing with nonsense like trying to end
global warming and world hunger to givacrap.
I even wrote to the White House. . and all I got back was a letter from the
President that said: "look, if you LIKE your 35mm projectors, you can KEEP your
35mm projectors....period!" And that turned out to be a lie. And just like another
big fib recently told, what you've got now is probably going to wind up costing
you more than three times as much as what you had in the first place.
You had your chance to stop the nonsense before it started, and you didn't.
SO STOP WHINING! (Sorry I've got to stop now- -my tin foil hat is overheating)
ps> True Story: I know of a theater that recently "went digital". They heavily
advertised their re-opening day. But the equipment didn't arrive in time, and
the entire project wound up behind schedule. The 35mm projector was hastily
pushed back into place and re-wired with clip leads & duct tape and they ran the
first day of their "digital" re-opening in 35mm with a picture that was off-center,
unevenly lit, and an aperture plate that no longer matched the screen size.
- - and yet after the first several shows more than one person came out of the
auditorum proclaiming how much better their "new" digital system picture looked.
Whatta farce!
Posted by John Roddy (Member # 7348) on 11-14-2013, 07:39 PM:
Funny. The last five or so times I've seen the studios try this, I've always seen follow-up emails on Thursday giving actual keys that unlock the entire feature at around 8 a.m.. Still not enough time for us to do a full, proper QC, but better than the "I can't believe it's not logic!" studios use to think that testing one reel is good enough. I just wish they'd admit it in advance rather than at the last second. That way, we could at least plan for it.
On a side note, I can't think of a single ingest issue we've ever had with a feature that showed up during the first reel. However, I can name several instances where the third or fourth reel ended up killing the entire show.
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-14-2013, 08:34 PM:
I think Brad needs to start a Stupid Distributor Tricks thread.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-14-2013, 08:55 PM:
quote:
Its even better when deluxe calls and asks if you've QCd it and you just say yes to get them off the phone because you have ACTUAL things to do at 7pm when they call rather than go on a rant on "How am I supposed to QC it when the key is valid at 11a Friday and it starts for the public at noon?" Only for them to say "Oh, I'm sorry about that. So have you QCd it yet?" "NO, ARE YOU RETARDED?!?"
That is such a typical phone call. Like I said, somebody is going to have to really prove to me that they don't get paid by the call they make and by the check marks they put on their QC'd sheet. And for what? All because somebody at the studio who doesn't really understand that doing this is useless and forks over the extra money to pay to have it done.
So there is this little app for the phone called Call Control. I HIGHLY recommend you get it and add their phone number to the blacklist. It's the only relief I've found from that nonsense. I think they've finally gotten the hint if it's a regular release not to even try to call. If it is for something unusual like a screening, they know to email and I'm happy to confirm that way.
So speaking of Stupid Distributor Tricks...
How many of you occasionally get a bad key for whatever reason? Maybe you had a server swap or the key got corrupted or the dates are wrong or whatever...you need a new key.
So most of our installs use Dolby servers. I'm not sure if it is this way with GDC, Sony or Doremi because I haven't had it happen in a long time on one of those servers, but on Dolby if you load a key that is "defective" for whatever reason, you can't reload a new key that has the same start and end times. It must be at least one minute different than the original key for it to read it and load. No big deal, right?
Try and explain that to the keymakers!!! What happens every single damn time? "Oh no problem let me remake that key for you...you will have it within 5 minutes."
...and then they just resend THE SAME KEYS. Upon close inspection they didn't remake it at all, much less alter the start or end time by a minute.
Now you have to call back and explain that they just sent the same keys and that they actually have to remake the key and offset the start or end time by a minute. "Oh I'm so sorry, I'll fix that for you...you will have it within 5 minutes."
5 minutes later, yup they made new keys, but they made them for the same start and end times. Time to call AGAIN!
"Why would the start or end times need to be altered?" Well geez, maybe because that's just a limitation of how this works and it's only something you should already know and we shouldn't have to be telling you. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
But while we're on the subject of Stupid Distributor Tricks, let's pick specifically on Deluxe for a moment, how many of you are playing the movie Instructions Not Included?
For those not in the know, Deluxe sent out hard drives and keys for this movie only to find out that the subtitles didn't work. (It's in Spanish.) So then they sent out a revised DCP known as "FTR-2" or "the subfix".
So each week as the previous week's licenses expire, guess what version they send the extension keys for? I'll give you 2 options.
Option A - they send the "FTR-2/subfix" keys
Option B - they knowingly send out keys to the original version that they know damn-good-and-well nobody can use!!!
Yup, option B. Way to go. Now every theater has to call up EACH WEEK and request (or argue with, depending on which Deluxe operator answers) to get the correct "subfix" keys so they can play the movie.
REALLY? I mean, REALLY???
In all fairness, we haven't really had any issues with keys issued from Technicolor in a long, long time. They have always been on the ball and rarely do we have an issue. Unfortunately most keys are going through Deluxe now and I have a feeling their people (and systems) may simply be overwhelmed with the workload.
...but they could cut that workload down if they would stop with the stupid "fake QCs".
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-14-2013, 11:21 PM:
They did this with the first Hunger Games. To the best of my knowledge the QC package is just a different CPL which uses the same "reel 1" as the main feature. Unfortunately it's only a 12 minute test, so you can't test the whole feature. And since it's only the 5.1, you can't test to make sure they haven't inverted the rear channels and the descriptive audio.
I just got off the phone with Deluxe. The keys for this partial package will be good from Tuesday 11/19 at midnight until Wednesday 11/20 at 8:00am. The regular release keys won't be active until 6:00pm Thursday evening. That means all the theatres running the double feature will not have an opportunity to even test their playlist prior to the 8:00pm Thursday premiere.
This is an absolutely asinine way to do things and will likely result in more problems than anything else.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2013, 02:43 AM:
Honestly they should either unlock the content 1 hour before the first legal public showtime or unlock it 48 hours ahead of time.
In the case of Hunger Games 2, they shouldn't have even bothered with this silly "QC test" and just unlocked on Thursday evening at 6pm.
Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 11-15-2013, 03:05 AM:
I've never had enough time to test an entire feature.
I do wish they'd at least provide a key that unlocked the actual file for an hour or so. That would be helpful.
I need to see more than just the first few minutes. I need to locate the cue offset. I don't usually go with the studio offset -- and, even if I did, I'd still want to check that.
quote: Jim Cassedy
Whatta bunch of whiners!
You've given up your business to the digital cinema dictators & gods.
They now control everything you do. They can now control when and what you play,
and even what equipment you must play it on. They watch & log everything you
do and will send threatening letters to those not 'in compliance' with the
New Digital World Order.
Not since the Nazis marched into Poland and France has there been a more
succussful takeover of private industry and art. And you all fell for it.
At least < I > tried to stop it. I put on my best tin-foil hat and wrote to congress.
But they were too busy raising taxes and dealing with nonsense like trying to end
global warming and world hunger to givacrap.
So... You went to Washington... and WHINED?
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-15-2013, 08:39 AM:
Well, the idea of sending the full feature and enable only part of it for QC with a special CPL/Key is not entirely stupid. However, I consider it useless for all common relases.
It would certainly make sense for special releases where basic technical issues could be expected, like e.g. HFR, SMPTE DCPs, ATMOS, etc.
However, two different KDMs also carry potential issues in themselves.
- Carsten
Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 11-15-2013, 09:56 AM:
One of the things I like about Disney is that they want you to do a proper QC, often unlocking the films several days in advance.
As for Hunger Games, Lionsgate pulled the same crap with the first one, so it's no surprise they're doing it with this one. I guess it doesn't matter that there hasn't been, as far as I know, a single verified case of any movie that was uploaded to the interwebs being recorded from a theatre QC screening.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 11-15-2013, 10:07 AM:
Someone needs to read section 7.2.3.3 of the DCI specifications.
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-15-2013, 10:22 AM:
quote:
7.2.3.3. Test Shows
The system is required to allow the content to be played back for validation and verification prior to exhibition.
Well, they were weasly enough not to say all of the content. I didn't check to see if they define "validation" or "verification". It could be interpreted to mean, "yeah, it's the right movie." Though the title of the section is "Test Shows". I just presume everything they say is meant to be interpreted in their favor.
I do like this spec a few notches later:
quote:
7.2.3.7. Ease of Operation
The Digital Cinema Theater System is encouraged to require only a reasonable level of computer operation knowledge or training for the basic operation of the system. The computer-based user interfaces are required to be simple and intuitive.
As our install is a few weeks from now, I don't know how simple and intuitive they are really going to be. Just judging from some of the stuff posted here, I'm saying they failed miserably. They probably mean, when everything is working perfectly all you have to do is hit a button, or less.
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-15-2013, 11:56 AM:
Reasonable level of computer knowledge? Hmmm.
I have dealt with this encryption key nonsense numerous times. Yes, they do typically send out the same exact keys that you already have. I have also seen them simply alter time information within the keys.
As far as quality checks go: They need to give operators reasonable periods of time to check THE entire feature, if the operator chooses to. This would typically be the night before. Allowing a quality check on a separate 'piece' of the movie that involves a different file and a different key - is very stupid.
Anyways..
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 11-15-2013, 02:25 PM:
Yeah, reasonable level of computer knowledge. It might be nice if all those people at the movie studio as well as those creating/distributing the DCP keys had a reasonable level of computer knowledge. If so, the lunacy of doing a QC on a different partial movie file rather than THE movie file being shown to customers wouldn't be taking place. The idea of making two different keys for those two different files is even more silly.
The phrase "reasonable level of computer knowledge" is very subjective and open to interpretation. What would be considered "reasonable?"
I think basic file management skills would be mandatory. I've come across so many friends, relatives, customers, etc. that don't know how to find their way around Windows File Explorer or the Mac OS Finder I'm starting to think a mere minority of computer users know how to organize computer files in different folders, discs, etc.
Microsoft Windows defaults to hiding file type extensions (such as ".pdf, .zip, .exe"). This can add to the headaches. I need a vector-based logo from a customer. He has four copies of "company logo" in his My Documents folder. Not being able to see the file type extensions (along with not having any graphics software on that specific machine) leaves him confused. So what does he do? He e-mails me the one that gives him a thumbnail image preview, which turns out to be a low resolution JPEG image and worthless for my purposes.
The act of digging into a movie encryption key, checking its values to see if they're correct and then re-generating a new key with correct values if needed, not only takes a reasonable amount of computer knowledge it takes time and effort too.
I'm guessing all these DCP encryption keys are automatically generated by the thousands using a script plugged into a theater database. It should all work well as long as all the information in that database is correct & up to date. Good luck on that!
Adding additional fake movie files and keys to unlock them just adds more layers of hassle for everyone. So, yeah, I have to think companies like Deluxe or whoever wouldn't voluntarily create all this extra work for themselves (and people at the theaters) unless is was generating more money for them.
Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 11-15-2013, 03:22 PM:
My most stupid distributor request:
(on press screening of some art film)
"Please test the test content we are sending you, the supplied keys will unlock it"
Problem 1) - The test content was not even part of the film
Problem 2) - The test content was on a totally separate CRU drive to the film
Problem 3) - The supplied keys for the test content unlocked the actual film, not their test content
Most stupid KDM problem:
I get my KDM email for a film. Glaringly obvious mistake. Call them up. "Uh hello Mr Distributor. Can you please send me a key for the film that has not ALREADY EXPIRED"...."What is that Mr Distributor, you have no record of us booking this film to start today?...weird, because you sent me the drive today just fine........ why, no, we were not playing it last week BECAUSE YOU JUST SENT ME THE DRIVE"
Im not even sure that some of these people know what the KDMs actually do, let alone the details of how they work
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-15-2013, 04:15 PM:
When I think about the basic operations and a reasonable level of computer knowledge, I'm mainly thinking of the ability to load and play a playlist - maybe even ingesting content and building a basic playlist. Those functions are pretty straight forward on the GDC severs. Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to learn those functions as long as you know how to use a mouse and key board, and navigate a menu.
I don't think basic operations involves any kind of configuration or running software updates, or anything beyond that.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-15-2013, 06:27 PM:
I taught a high school girl -- who is not particulary interested in computers but is otherwise normally intelligent -- all of the basics of operating our system in about half an hour. That included time to start up the projector, build a playlist, insert cues and run the playlist for testing.
Posted by James Waite (Member # 4536) on 11-15-2013, 08:37 PM:
I wonder if they do things differently here in Canada. Our keys usually unlock wednesday at midnight/Thursday. I usually ingest the movies thursday afternoon and QC them before the evening shows or afterwards if needed.
We don't run matinees. I received a key for Prisoners last week that didn't open until Midnight on Thursday/Friday. I called and asked them to open it earlier so I could test when I usually do and they sent a new key.
We are second run however so maybe that's why they aren't as strict?
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-15-2013, 09:25 PM:
James, typically keys for first run movies are good starting at midnight the day before release (Wednesday night for Friday releases). However, some studios are different. For example, Sony is typically 6:00pm the day before release, but it looks like they may be changing to 6:00am the day before. Disney keys are typically good the Monday before release.
It's only Lionsgate that seems to play these games with their big release. They did the same thing with the first Hunger Games, and they gave a pretty narrow window on a couple of the Twilight movies.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-15-2013, 09:40 PM:
So let's see, Lionsgate doesn't have any other movies out, so what they are saying is "fuck the other studios" and essentially forcing the theaters to cancel "some other studio's movie" at the prime time round in order to QC theirs because they won't unlock the keys at a normal time.
Of course. This makes total sense now. And if I was another studio, I wouldn't be annoyed at all.
I say everybody cancel the prime time show in WHICHEVER auditorium(s) you plan on running this Hunger Games thing in so you can do your QCs and let the studio's fight it out.
Remember, a QC in auditorium #1 does no good for auditorium #2, etc. The whole QC thing is silly anyway. How many theaters actually QC their holdover movies as they change auditoriums? Ummmm let's see...NONE! And how many problems have their been?
Like I said, unlock them early or just don't unlock them until the last minute. This fake "test" nonsense and unlocking only a few hours prior to showtime needs to go away though.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-16-2013, 05:11 PM:
I don't get it. What does a studio think can happen between the time they unlock a feature for QC to the time it plays for the public? Are they concerned that some naredowell theatre owner will pirate it, assuming all the other anti-piracy security could be circumscribed? Why is the day. or two, or three before the film opens any more or less vulnerable than ANY day after it opens, again assuming 1) you have a some criminal bent on stealing it and 2) he/she has that ability? How does not allowing an extra day or two for a real, FULL QC run make it any more or less easier to bootleg? Prints were delivered to theatres sometime a week before opening; I thought digital was supposed to make copying much harder than film.
What has to happen is, sooner or later a big batch of defective DCPs will go out where the feature is can't play through completely, but the stupid, useless "test" QC file plays fine all the theatres report back that everything is verified because they ran the QC, but not the feature. Then come Friday opening and everything goes to shit. Since they themselves say it will take them 24 hrs to replace the bad DCP hardware or software, that studio will loose the whole weekend as all those theatres will have to cancel Friday and Saturday, probably Sunday. So opening weekend numbers on their big tentpole will be something like $60,000 in 34 theatres....hehe Bet THAT will make studios rethink this crap. After all, if they lose even one show on a first run, that's their 90/10 deal...it hurts them a hellofalot more than the exhibitor, other than his embarrassment and lost public good-will, which, if life was fair, he could quantify and with a good lawyer or representative industry ORGANIZATION, sue the studio to recoupe damages and breach of contract due to their inability to supply a runable print.
And that, of course, brings us back so what was already mentionted -- did someone say where is NAAAAAAAAY-TOE?! There's NATO...with its collective head up its collective ass.
BTW, by now, surely someone out there must by working on a KEY Hack App, yes?
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-16-2013, 06:07 PM:
Has any of you guys ever sent so much as an email to NATO about this problem?
I didn't think so.
They may not even know there is a complaint since most people don't say anything.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-16-2013, 06:12 PM:
quote: Frank Angel
BTW, by now, surely someone out there must by working on a KEY Hack App, yes?
Not necessary, it's already done. Just that it takes longer to compute the key than the feature will be showing.
- Carsten
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-16-2013, 06:21 PM:
NATO doesn't wield any power over the studios. They are a trade organization which can gather information from the theatre and present it to the studio, but they have no power.
In fact, I believe NATO takes a stance against advocating that theatre take any particular stance against the studios in order to avoid any charges of collusion.
That being said, I can assure you many of these issues are brought to the attention of NATO, and they are brought to the attention of the studios. I know this because I have been in the room when various issues are being discussed within NATO and I have seen, or been made aware of, communications between NATO and studio executives.
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-16-2013, 07:25 PM:
As we have discussed before, it is all about control. They want as much as possible and they are going to take all they can.
Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 11-16-2013, 10:05 PM:
Makes you kind of miss when just the DTS discs were missing, doesn't it?
AJG
Posted by Sean Weitzel (Member # 244) on 11-17-2013, 11:25 AM:
or combination locks on the cans "You'll have the lock code 2 hours before showtime"
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-17-2013, 01:36 PM:
quote: Justin Hamaker
NATO doesn't wield any power over the studios. They are a trade organization which can gather information from the theatre and present it to the studio, but they have no power.
In fact, I believe NATO takes a stance against advocating that theatre take any particular stance against the studios in order to avoid any charges of collusion.
Saying NATO has no power over the studios is like saying the studios have no power over exhibition. The argument that NATO sometimes puts forth that somehow if its member exhibitors formulated guidelines and policies that were beneficial to the group, that would constitute collusion -- that's just a half-baked excuse. There is a difference between acting on issues that have a common impact on a group of businesses and conspiracy to financially harm another business. The former is perfectly legal, the latter is not. Studios have been formulating policies that benefit them as a group since the beginning of time -- it's called the MPAA; it's called DCI. Ever read the "Master Contracts" from each studio? Rearrange the paragraphs a bit, but in the end they all say pretty much exactly the same thing. That didn't happen by accident or in a vacuum or because the studios were afraid they's be accused of collusion. If NATO thinks they only have the power to "suggest" things to the studios that are detribmental to exhibition, going like beggars with their hand out pleading for relief and anything more than that would be illegal, then they need to get better lawyers.
In today's environment where the number of big exhibitors is down to three, any one of them alone, without even involving NATO, could simple state that their policy is that they will not open any picture from any studio where they are not given at least 48 hours to fully QC the entire picture. Period. THAT is power. No studio is going to risk loosing a Friday opening night in every AMC theatre just because they won't issue keys with that REASONABLE 48 hour lead-time.
Let a big blockbuster not open at all AMC theatres until Sunday instead of Friday and guaranteed which ever the studio, it will immediately rethink their idiotic QC KEY policy. Exhibitors can have policies too, if they only had the balls to implement them. Theatre owners could have done that for decades, but it was always GREED and competition with each other that paralized them from any effective control that they might have in their own interests. The studios have found a way to do it legally, so could exhibition.
Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 11-17-2013, 02:41 PM:
quote: Sean Weitzel
or combination locks on the cans "You'll have the lock code 2 hours before showtime
We once had someone working there in the booth that by chance entered their birthdate on the lock. Needless to say, we were able to QC that print much earlier than anyone else.
AJG
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 11-17-2013, 03:09 PM:
OK I can't get more than a few posts into this thread before I start getting angry. If they give you an e-mail, E-MAIL THEM and say that NO you didn't QC the movie because that option doesn't exist. And NO you didn't follow their QC instructions because that's like watching one movie to QC another. Let's say you're looking at some hot porn and you get some nasty corruption over the 'good parts' of the image. HOW CAN THAT BE??? You looked at the thumbnail to QC the image before you clicked it THAT'S COMPLETELY VALID QC! Same thing is going on here. Oh! And if those fuckers call asking if you've QC'd, tell em the same thing. "No we haven't as that option isn't available and your instructions do not allow us to QC the actual movie. That's like asking us to watch a trailer to make sure a print is built up correctly and doesn't have any defective reels. Good day."
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 11-17-2013, 07:58 PM:
Better yet. Run the QC as instructed, then call in a panic telling them it's defective and you didn't get the full movie and they need to send new one ASAP.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 11-17-2013, 08:34 PM:
quote: Justin Hamaker
I can assure you many of these issues are brought to the attention of NATO, and they are brought to the attention of the studios. I know this because I have been in the room when various issues are being discussed within NATO and I have seen, or been made aware of, communications between NATO and studio executives.
I'm sure you are correct -- however, a couple of people here and there complaining aren't going to do anything. What needs to happen is a STORM of emails, phone calls, or even letters, along with the solutions Brad and Joe have suggested. If stuff actually starts to happen, then they might pay attention. The way it is now, they say what they want, we all do it, and if there are a couple of complaints they chalk it up to nit-pickers.
The other problem is not so much "greed," but "need." No chain, no matter how big, can afford to bypass an opening night of a huge movie like a Hunger Games title. You may not believe it but they have bills to pay, too. Taking a stance on principle is great, but if it costs your company a collective $10 million or more, you're more likely to just play by the rules.
We aren't playing the Hunger Games movie on the break so I'm not having to deal with this nonsense, fortunately.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-17-2013, 09:20 PM:
Mike
I'm not just talking about people complaining. I'm talking about people who are on various committees which include theatre people, NATO people, and studio people.
These committees include technology which is working to refine digital cinema standards and bring studios and theatres onto the same page on various issues - things like implementing a standard CPL naming convention which would be used by all the studios. Working on improved KDM delivery. Working on having the studios make better use of metadata in CPLs.
There is another committee for ratings compliance which works with the MPAA to ensure compliance by the studios to ratings standards, as well as trying to implement policies which are more practical for the theatre environment - including trying to ensue the ratings system keeps up with our society's changing values.
NATO is also active in Washington DC trying to help theatres from unreasonable regulations and legislation. For example, the Justice Department is in the process of reviewing ADA requirements when it comes to the implementation of closed captioning and descriptive audio in theatres. I know for a fact that my theatre's logs on ALD, CC, and descriptive audio use are making there way to people who are involved with these decisions to help them implement practical rules related to minimum system requirements and quantity of units available.
While NATO doesn't really have any official power, they are working to bring studios and theatres together on a number of different issues. But as I said, they stop short of advising theatres to take a specific stance on issues like passing on certain pictures due to things like day and date VOD, unreasonable film terms, and so forth. But the do disseminate information to theatres which can help make decisions about various issues.
Having sat in on a number of NATO meetings, one thing I can say is that there are very often competing interests on various issues, some of them coming from a corporate level rather than the ground level.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-17-2013, 10:37 PM:
Wow, with all those committees and the wonderful interaction between NATO and the studios, how is it a thing as simple as fixing a problem as obvious as keys being set to an unreasonably short lead-time before a feature opens, not to mention the totally useless "quality check" of something other than the full feature, can't be addressed and easily fixed in short order? Problem here is, failure to communicate.
Seems obvious that those who set up this whole separate key for a test that is nearly useless with an entire feed-back network in place to check if the useless QC was carried out, was done without consultation with the exhibitor to understand what he needs to insure a perfect run (something I assume is as beneficial to the studio as it is to the exhibitor). All this feasco seems to indicate is that for all the hob-nobbing between NATO committees and studio people, theatre operators didn't have any input about this since anyone who works in the real-life operation of a theatre would immediately see the flaws in their policy. This thread shows that it doesn't take much to understand how conterproductive their QC system really is. All they needed to do was ask.
Seems like NATO hasn't been able to convince the studios that allowing longer lead-times for proper QC runs are no more a security risk than allowing the picture to play at all.
Posted by Randy Pryde (Member # 7488) on 11-17-2013, 10:42 PM:
Adding to Justin's excellent summary, NATO also has a committee representing independent theatre owners.
The Cinema Buying Group, under NATO's auspices, was able negotiate contracts with the studios and Cinedigm which enabled a lot of independents to receive VPFs. Wayne Anderson, and later Bill Campbell, as unpaid heads of the CBG, worked thousands of hours to make this happen. John Fithian, the president of NATO, is present at every CBG meeting.
NATO also was instrumental in overturning the ban on SBA loans to exhibitors. This has enabled a lot of people to buy their first theatre or grow their circuit.
NATO represents over 600 U.S. exhibition companies, but a call or email from any member is always quickly acknowledged.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-17-2013, 11:05 PM:
Frank, I get the impression you have a personal beef with NATO and think it's NATO's responsibility to MAKE the studios do what theatre owners want.
The simple fact is the issue over short window keys, and other related nonsense, has been brought to the attention of the studios many different times through many different avenues. Deluxe probably fields calls with every Sony release asking why the keys aren't good until 6:00pm Thursday. Film bookers are hearing from theatres and passing it on to their studio contacts. And studio people are also hearing the complaints that come through NATO.
More to the point, Lionsgate is well aware that theatres want to have the keys in a reasonable amount of time to ensure QC showings. Most LG keys are good at midnight Thursday morning (Wednesday night). This was the case for Ender's Game, Now You See Me, You're Next, and every other LG film we've played. The exception has been the two Hunger Games films and the Twilight Breaking Dawn Part 2 (the earlier Twilight films were release through Summit).
For whatever reason, LG feels they can/need to exert tighter control over these major releases, and they get away with it because no theatre which can play these films is going to pass on them to make a point. The blame for this lunacy should fall at the feet of Lionsgate, and only Lionsgate.
For what it's worth, Sony seems to be responding by making their keys good at 6:00am Thursday rather than 6:00pm Thursday.
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 11-17-2013, 11:30 PM:
The preceding ass-kissing of NATO was sponsored by the team of Justin and Randy.
Seriously though, NATO has been a toothless lion for many years and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.
Face it you guys, digital cinema was forced upon exhibs by the studios with false promises of easier operation, better presentations (not always untrue really) and lower costs.
Instead we have systems where something as simple as QC is either prevented or outright not allowed, an absolutely ridiculous feature and trailer naming "standard", and exorbitant costs incurred by the exhibs (excepting those who scored VPFs) for this "upgrade". Not to mention, (as discussed in other threads) the STUDIOS' practice of authoring DCP's with Blu-Ray masters or consumer Blu Rays themselves.
The studio's Nazi-like insistence on control has gotten WAY out of hand and has done NOTHING to stop piracy at all. It makes me
in my mouth to say that the MPAA has done a better job in the anti-piracy war and we all know how good they are at it.
The studios simply don't care anymore about the exhibs at all...if they had their way all "films" would be PPV or direct to video so they can milk that cow dry.
Never have I seen an industry that takes such great strides to shoot the messenger when the reality is simple: without the messenger (exhibitors) how will their product ever make any real money?
Even grade-school students understand that..why can't the "educated" studio execs?
Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 11-18-2013, 09:59 AM:
quote: Sean Weitzel
or combination locks on the cans "You'll have the lock code 2 hours before showtime"
That's what bolt cutters in the booth were for.
Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 11-18-2013, 11:12 AM:
Did anyone ever actually cut those locks off? The ones I saw always came with a scary warning about how you must return the locks in good condition and so forth and so on, or else. I never really knew what the or else would actually be.
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 11-18-2013, 01:01 PM:
A personal beef, Justin? Not at all. In fact, I only spent 5 years in commecial theatre many years ago and since then all art-house, non-theatrical operations so my perspective is pretty much as an observer. And my observation has been that for an industry where both the producers of content and the exhibitors of content are so interdependent on each other of it to work, both weild a fairly equal amount of power (without exhibition, the studios would be making nothing but "made for TV movies of the week" and Direct to DVD and cable releases. Yet historically, for whatever economic or cultural reasons, it's been exhibition that has gotten screwed dispite the potential power it has.
NATO is the focal point of that power and as I see it from an outsider's perspective, for the most part in things that really count, like the distribution patten/theatrical window protection, it has squandered that power. Again, I am not saying it's the fault of the people who run the organization -- the lack of cohesive action for the exhibitors benefit can be placed right at the feet of the exhibitors themselves. As I have said before, competition between the theatre owners and their inability to become a united front is the real problem. NATO just happens to be the focal point of that inability. The MPAA on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that problem at all. It speaks with the solidarity of all the majors and exhibition seems pretty powerless in comparison.
As for the CBG, again only as an observer, but hearing all the negative chatter about that branch of NATO from all the Drive-In theatre owners -- the most vulnerable, truely Mom & Pop operators in the independent segment -- it sounded to me like the CBG for the most part was ineffective. I read some of the materials sent out by the CBG early on which sounded alot like bullying and scare tactics rather than a cooperative effort ("better join CGB or else you can will go under and we won't look to us for help later on," or words pretty much to that effect) and in the end, CBG offered nothing useful. The owners were told they had to join, but CBG wouldn't reveal what the supposed with deal was that they were buying into. Turns out, the reality is that all of the DI owners who didn't join CBG now have converted to digital; they did it on their own and are doing fine. The idea that CBG got any substantial "deals" with their buying power -- that was the promise -- never materialized...not for the digital conversion, not even for booth supplies like xenon lamps and such. At least that's what the majority of DI owners were saying; they got no better deals on supplies than any owner could have negotiated on his/her own.
As for VPFs, for most DIs anyway, they found that they were better off financially without CBG's negotiated VPFs, and operate well without them. Again, this is only an opinion I have formed by reading all threads about CBG on the Drive-in blog over a number of years, with the majority of posts being negative, and by reading the statements from CBG itself.
Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 11-18-2013, 03:23 PM:
I guess bitching and complaining does make a difference. We just an email from Deluxe letting us know we will get a key to unlock the full feature and properly QC on Wednesday night... from 10pm to 1am.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-18-2013, 04:13 PM:
Ed, I hope we get the same.
For those looking for the Test "R1TestCatchingFire_TEST..." CPL, it will be under Test or Other in your LMS. If you're looking in the Feature content, you won't find it.
Posted by Philip Jones (Member # 6677) on 11-20-2013, 11:38 AM:
In the UK we got sent a KDM that starts at 00:01 which is the time of the first show.
I rang up and they did agree to send a new KDM which starts at 22:30, but when I've loaded it onto our server (Dolby DSS200), it still only lists the original KDM in the feature 'properties' box.
It does list the 22:30 KDM when you view 'all licences' however.
I assume it's got confused somehow by having two future KDMs
Does anyone know if it unlock at 22:30 or not?
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-20-2013, 04:44 PM:
Re-open the playlist first and see if it still shows it like that. Also, I know in some servers you might have to refresh your player with the server, although I only remember needing to do that with DCPs but yours might need it for some reason.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-20-2013, 06:16 PM:
Just an update on this Catching Fire nonsense. Deluxe is not sending out the release keys until 10:00pm tonight (Wednesday night). Not only are they not letting us QC the full feature ahead of time, they can't even be bothered to send the keys early enough to ensure there is ample time to get new keys if there is a problem.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-20-2013, 07:06 PM:
And it's all for nothing.
The world's a big place and we are not all in the same time zone. Our keys opened 28 hours ago. First session was 12 hours ago.
It's probably already on the torrent sites.
Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 11-20-2013, 09:45 PM:
How is the audio sync on the US version? I don't think the cinemas here in NZ (or Australia?) got the special QC reel, but the film opened at Midnight presumably with no REAL QC's allowed, and the audio is intermittently out-of-sync on the 5.1 version (by a couple of frames at some points I understand, so not massively, but enough to be noticed).
If your main US version is also out-of-sync, was this able to be identified on the QC reel?
Apparently the 7.1 VF is OK.
Posted by Maybelline Cabrera (Member # 4495) on 11-21-2013, 12:01 AM:
It's Thursday, 4:00 PM. I have a double feature starting at 5:15 and no keys for Hunger Games. Keys for Catching Fire came in an hour ago and apparently I can play the darn film right now. Been on hold waiting for someone at Deluxe to assist my call and I haven't spoken to anyone. No transfers, nothing. Anyone know what the heck is going on?
Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 11-21-2013, 02:26 PM:
Looks like enough people complained.
quote:
PROJECTIONIST
IMPORTANT KEY INFORMATION:
Your location is currently booked to play The Hunger Games: Catching Fire release by Lionsgate Films. Please review the updated key information related to this title below:
1. The release keys sent to your site on Wednesday night (11/20) are active at 12pm local time on Thursday 11/21 and not 6pm as previously advertised.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-21-2013, 09:07 PM:
I do find it oddly humorous that not only did Lionsgate not permit the theaters to do their own QCs on this movie, but they failed to do a proper QC ON THEIR END to the master.
The 5.1 of Catching Fire is out of sync here
This further proves my point that these "test DCPs" for movies like this are A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME AND ACCOMPLISH NOTHING!
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-21-2013, 11:49 PM:
Fortunately I was able to QC our print before opening today and everything was fine. Biggest issue for which I still have my fingers crossed is that we don't lose power do to the high winds in the area.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 11-23-2013, 02:10 AM:
I just started receiving my keys for Disney's Frozen, and they are good starting Friday night at midnight (11/23 00:00). It's almost as if Disney is trying to make a point to Lionsgate. But of course this is normal for Disney. It sure would be nice if the other studios would take a lesson.
Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 12-11-2013, 06:06 PM:
I just emailed Technicolor wondering where our keys are since they usually arrive Tuesday and here is what I got in response:
quote:
Management,
Due to the excessive number of keys processed for hobbit. Standard Bulk process will commence this evening. If your keys are not received by noon on Thursday, please contact Technicolor at that time.
I guess having 20 different keys for each screen really does gunk up the works...
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 12-11-2013, 08:32 PM:
That's strange, we got ours early this afternoon (drive and keys both). They almost always show up on Wednesday.
I was actually kind of expecting it earlier because of the rotten weather, a lot of shipping is being delayed, so some winters they ship things out earlier.
Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 12-11-2013, 09:09 PM:
I received my drive on Monday, but didn't get my keys until this afternoon.
One thing to point out is they want the trailer for Interstellar attached, and that trailer requires a KDM which should arrive in the same package as your feature keys for The Hobbit.
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