Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Life Span of DPL Chips

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 11-16-2013, 07:13 AM:

I'm just curious if you guys see failures of DLP chips in the field and how long they last for.

The reason I ask is that I have a DLP TV at home that is probably 5 years old and gets maybe 2 hours of use per day. In the last few weeks it has started developing stuck white and black pixels all over the screen.

I was wondering if (hopefully) the professional grade chips have much better long term reliability.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-16-2013, 10:06 AM:

The DLP chips themselves are pretty stable. TI has some impressing statistics. Stuck pixels, though are usually not a matter of defective pixels, but board/formatter wiring, these are high density flatwire cables/connectors, leadfree, under high temperature loads.

So, DLP chips fail hardly ever, but that doesn't mean you won't have stuck pixels sooner or later.
I have seen quite a few newly installed DLP machines with some stuck pixels.

If warranty/budget allows, this will usually mean a lightengine swap, and I guess most of these defects can be repaired in the factory.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-16-2013, 10:32 AM:

I had issues with early NEC NC3240's and lots of bad pixels. Had to replace two light engines within several months of installation... but this was only on the very first batch of 4K projectors they produced. No issues since those and quite a few 4K systems now in...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-16-2013, 07:25 PM:

I've probably swapped out 4 light engines due to stuck pixels. All were found within warranty.

I guess we will all see how this will be over time. If it is encouraging, I had 3 Barco DP50s in service for 10-year, 7-days a week. The DLP chips range without issue that whole time. We had two bad color boards within the first 6 months and that was it. In the last year, two of the touchpanel controller modules died...but the system was completely runable anyway. Now those where the EARLY, EARLY machines...series 2 stuff is much more refined.

-Steve

Posted by Lincoln Spector (Member # 6835) on 11-21-2013, 01:56 PM:

A couple of years ago, at the San Francisco International Film Festival, one auditorium at the Kabuki theater had a dead pixel.

Actually, it was more of an undead pixel. It wouldn't turn off. In light scenes, no problem. In dark scenes, there was this one tiny blue light.

The problem was fixed before the festival was over. The theater's top projectionist said that the festival revenue helped pay for the very expensive part replacement. I think he said it was something like $12,000.

I don't know what kind of projector they have or how long they had it.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 11-21-2013, 04:46 PM:

That's a typical phenomenon for a stuck pixel in the DLP chip for the blue channel.

A pixel stuck in the off state is hardly noticed, but a pixel stuck in the active state can be very annoying in dark scenes.

If you Google around a bit, it's easy to find information regarding te MTBF of DMDs like the TI DLP chips. Besides maybe some better QC, I don't think there will be any essential difference between the production quality of the consumer and the professional chips.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 12-29-2013, 08:46 PM:

As a follow up to this. I've done a lot of research on my TV issue and it does appear to be caused by stuck mirrors on the DMD chip. I am going to change it out (under $200 for a "wobulation" DMD chip). I'll take a picture of the old one. Supposedly you can actually see the stuck mirrors with the naked eye(each dot is bigger than 1 pixel).

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-30-2013, 04:36 PM:

You can actually see the contours of the last picture on your DLP chip if it hasn't been reset to an "all black", "all white" or neutral position before shutdown and you didn't shake it too hard.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-02-2014, 12:54 AM:

I would say at least 10-15 years, I am sure there is some planned obsolescence built into digital projection equipment.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-03-2014, 07:09 PM:

Without some hard numbers, this is just a guess.

Fact is, a 3 chip DLP projector is actually more prone to DLP failure than a single chip solution used in almost all home and office DLP products. If just one pixel in one of the three DLP chips gets stuck in the "on" position, this will produce a red, green or blue colored dot in darker scenes, which can be really distracting.

There are other things that are just due to fail after 10 to 15 years of operation, like cooling fans or in case of Barco projectors, stuff like heat exchangers, etc.

And let's not forget that all first generation digital projectors are already slowly being obsoleted by pushing stuff like HFR and 4K.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-03-2014, 07:30 PM:

Ahem...first generation? Not to be confused with "Series 1"...the First generation are the Barco DP50, DP40, Christie's equivalent models. Those have already been obsoleted. I know we retired our DP50s...but only just a few months ago...they made it 10-years. As DCinema machines, they were essentially obsolete once the 2K machines came out but one could still get 1.3K content for them for a couple of years.

The Barco DP100 came out in 2004, as I recall...it is hitting 10-years now...the same with the CP2000 from Christie. About all that they can't do is the 3D stuff (well).

As for heat exchangers, cooling pumps, fans...big deal...that isn't such a high price or unreasonable service. However those modules will drive you to the poor house pretty quickly. Just about every PCB in one of these things is on the order of a few thousand and the Digital companies WON'T REPAIR them...got a ballast go bad and its out of warranty...buy a new one. Rectifier repairs that were done for for under $100 in parts are now going to cost a few thousand to replace...not because it isn't repairable but they are refusing to. I think there could be a market on some of this stuff for a company that is willing to take on servicing DCinema equipment.

Then again, with some of the PCBs...if it is a board related problem, there are so many layers to them, they may not be practical to repair...especially if it is intermittent in nature. How many potential solder joints could be partially failing (just enough to causing a timing error)?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-05-2014, 06:57 AM:

I was indeed mostly referring to the "Series 1" DCI projectors, not those "pre-DCI" projectors, like those Kinoton consoles and lamphouses with diagonally mounted DLP head Barco sold for a while (DPx0). They will never do HFR 3D and yes, they're capable of playing 4K content being scaled to 2K, none of them are upgradeable to 4K (although the usefulness of upgrading a 2K projector to 4K can surely be debated).

Also, you never know for sure if the studios come up with some new security demands, that either requires expensive upgrades or won't work at all on "older" equipment.

The DP100 was indeed released in 2004 (and most of them are probably still in production), although a few of them already showed up in 2003 as prototype in a few complexes in Belgium.

In general, you would expect the stuff that has moving parts in it to fail first...

Repairing a PCB, even if it is one that has a multi-thousand-dollar list price is just not cost effective. And doing it yourself is also practically impossible, because of lack of diagnostic tools and repair manuals. Replacing a multi-pin SMD is also not something you can do without some good training. Maybe if the damage is obvious and visible, like a blown capacitor, you can still do something yourself.

I haven't seen much failure in multilayer PCBs itself (although, who can say for sure...), besides some cheap Chinese no-name stuff that had some lamination issues (layers actually letting loose), probably due to not built to sustain the heat.

The market for DCI equipment is considerably smaller than many others, but even then, there will be a lucrative market for refurbished equipment.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2014, 09:01 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Repairing a PCB, even if it is one that has a multi-thousand-dollar list price is just not cost effective.

Marcel, I'm going to call BS on that one. All of the refurbed boards that Barco, Christie and NEC have were indeed repaired when the boards were under warranty. Why then do they become unrepairable once they fall out of warranty? It makes no sense. The same goes for the power supplies where one doesn't have a bunch of SMT or multi-layer boards.

As to board failures. It all depends on trace construction and if the board has been flexed and so forth. The CP500 was known for blind via failures.

I think it is just a big departure from what this industry has established in the name of making equipment last longer (have greater value). We are not even talking about equipment that is over 10-years old or even out of production. It is just out of warranty.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-05-2014, 11:38 AM:

Having worked a couple of months for a PCB production facility about 15 years back (I'm aware a lot has happened since then), I know that many of those high-end multilayer PCBs don't come cheap (some of them cost a few thousand bucks a piece WITHOUT any components). Still, the price of even those "high end" PCBs for the likes of Cisco, Sun, IBM, etc. went down fast and it was no longer viable to have any kind of mass production in any western country, so that got moved to Taiwan.

I'm not denying what you're saying, but I would rather be surprised if Barco, NEC, Christie, etc. will actually repair their PCBs instead of just swapping them with a "refurbished one", which is all to often, just a still working component that has been pulled from an otherwise defective machine.

A broken blind via will in any regards trash your PCB, if you're even able to diagnose it as such. Maybe you can still recover some of the components from those boards, as long as they're not covered in some nasty epoxy resin.

But, I don't need to explain to you why most manufacturers do not even offer you the option to repair a broken board or otherwise easily repairable component like a PSU or ballast...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 01-05-2014, 11:48 AM:

I'm quite sure that a lot of these older boards are in fact analyzed and repaired at the factory. It's just that the manufacturers don't offer 'repair' as a 'cheaper' option to the customer - due to many potential issues, it is easier to just offer replacements or refurbished items at a fixed price. Because some boards may not be able to be repaired economically.

BTW - I know a technician who recently 'repaired' a Barco by resoldering the backplane himself. One of the HD-SDI inputs was not working.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2014, 11:55 AM:

I come back to that they ARE having the boards repaired...but only when they are within warranty. So the facility/means to have them repaired exists...they just choose to not offer that service after warranty.

I would think it would be a great selling point for service after the sale. As an exhibitor...when you are choosing which projector to purchase...there is the initial bottom line but if you realize you are on the hook for potentially another $5000 here, $2000 there...with one company and it is closer to $500 or $1000 for repairs with another...that can add up fast when one considers all of the potential failures they may have.

And what about light engines...they can up upwards of $20K on their own...we have entire projectors now selling for those numbers. Even if one had to buy their first one, those should be able to be "repaired" even if it is mere module changes (DMD, formatter board)...any of those would have to be significantly cheaper than trashing the whole thing.

I think there could be a reasonable business in DCinema repairs as the bench level. While I agree if a 16 layer board has damage, it is done...that is not necessarily the case if it is a component sitting on top of it. I also don't see the chance of an outfit not already set up in working on SMT boards ever being able to make a living off of just trying to repair DCinema stuff...though perhaps...if repairs at an average of $1500/each start to add up...then you can probably get a bit of a business since that would be about half the cost (Average) of new modules.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-05-2014, 01:29 PM:

I'm thinking of failed Enigma boards (log full): I'm sure they can be re-initialized at the factory and after that they would be good as new. I cannot be 100% sure but I think some of the failed boards can be restored by software or maybe just replacing some easy-to-replace components.
Also, some boards are swapped for no reason - just think of a software glitch still not known, Barco/NEC/Christie would swap the board to then find out it's not a HW problem.
The returned board is simply a working one.

Posted by Kenneth Wuepper (Member # 1174) on 01-05-2014, 02:47 PM:

Repairing circuit boards is a complex operation. It requires a testing jig that will properly exercise all of the components on the board. This test jig would be very costly to construct and could only do one board. A manufacturer would have this type of test equipment for verifying the quality of boards constructed in house or supplied by a contractor. There would be only a few similar boards that could be expected at an independent service facility so the cost of the jig would be prohibitive.

Then there is the matter of proprietary chips and their availability. Not everyone can access these components for replacement use. Unless the manufacturer would give you access to their proprietary components, it would still be impossible to repair the boards.

All warranty boards returned to the manufacturer would be checked on the test jig before discarding them. Good ones, due to "black box" type replacement, would be acceptable for the term "refurbished" as we know it. Nothing other than testing may have been done to the board. Soldering and occasional component replacement could also return a board to useful service. These boards cannot be sold as "new" even if they would work the same as a new one.

The best solution would be for the manufacturer to supply boards on an exchange basis thereby they would get all of the boards back and could test and recycle operable ones, discard defective ones and determine possible weaknesses in the design or components for future modification. Boards would be supplied at a fixed "exchange" price based on the worst case failure. All proprietary components would remain under the control of the manufacturer.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-05-2014, 03:25 PM:

Christie sold me refurbished enigma boards as new. Predictably, a problem cropped up a few days in which was probably there since new.

Dolby has pretty much stopped supplying advance replacements for boards or units out of warranty. You need to send in the bad unit and wait for it. Nice trick if you don't have a replacement in hand.

I had one transaction where I needed to order a new power supply for a DP2000. It arrived air freight from Belgium at a cost of around $3,000 and was a used unit with bolts rolling around inside the unit. Ultimately, I did not pay but it's just an indicator of what's to come. We're not in Kansas anymore.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-05-2014, 03:37 PM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Dolby has pretty much stopped supplying advance replacements for boards or units out of warranty. You need to send in the bad unit and wait for it

The reason for doing that really escapes me.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-05-2014, 04:04 PM:

IMHO, making a business out of repairing failed DCI components will be rather hard, especially without help from the manufacturers and they probably already have their contractors for equipment repairs if they don't do it in-house. There sure is a limited market for "easy repairs" like re-soldering obvious loose contacts, etc.

But since you're harming the business model of those manufacturers, they are not interested into helping you at all. Additionally, many of those components, like those enigma link decryption boards, are built to be as unserviceable as possible by external engineers, those things were designed as a black box on purpose.

Like Kenneth already eloquently explained, repairing a modern PCB is a complex operation, you need specialized testing equipment and instructions what to test. This isn't your 70's TV. [Wink]

.

Also, most people don't have a few spare DCI projectors lying around to freely experiment with. It's not like a $400 gadget you can afford to blow up once in a while.

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Christie sold me refurbished enigma boards as new. Predictably, a problem cropped up a few days in which was probably there since new.

That's a common practice in almost all businesses nowadays. In the manufacturers mind, the "new" unit only needs to last for the warranty period covered and most warranty terms explicitly state they can do that.

I think, Barco, Christie, NEC and the likes could learn a thing or two from Cisco, Juniper and the likes. They offer warranty and support contracts that can be extended, until the product is deemed End of Life (which is at least 5 years after End-of-Sale in case of Cisco, for popular products it is sometimes extended) and which are not directly bound to the age of the equipment. All spare parts, software updates and replacements are covered flat fee. You can even take equipment out of the support contract once it goes out of operation and take it back in, once it goes back into operation. It also doesn't matter if it is second hand equipment or not, as long as you can prove you legally acquired it.

For big chains, it will probably better to judge and take the risk and invest in spare parts or a custom service contract of your own, but for small shops, those kind of contracts can give peace of mind.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-05-2014, 04:21 PM:

Here is the kicker...look at the most costly items in a DCinema projector...aside from the rectifier, if it isn't Sony, it is made by Texas Instruments. The ICP board and Enigma module is the same physical board for all three OEM brands. TI should have the means to "renew" them short of a PCB failure.

As for Dolby...they have moved a bit from their prior stance of non-service for out of warranty items. Though I believe the deal is now...that if your unit is out of warranty, they will supply a "loaner" unit while your unit is repaired returned. This is for "mission critical" items. While not as ideal as the traditional repair/exchange program of yesteryear since one has to reinstall and ship something twice...it is better than the "well...by a new one" policy that seems to be going around. Heck, with things like a CP750...if you aren't a single or a small plex, having a "spare" would make sense and put it on line immediately while the company spare is sent out for repairs. The same could be said of many things in DCinema...up to a point. The smaller you are, the more cost prohibitive this becomes though.

In the US...at least, there are extended warranty plans available...but if you look at them...they only "work" if you are a single or a VERY small plex. The cost is typically 2500-$3000/year/projector. If you are a single...it allows you to buy a light engine on the 10-year plan.

But lets say you are a 6-plex. At $3K a year per projector...that is $18K a year in "extended warranty"...so by the end of the second year of extended warranty...you could have bought an entire projector to rob for parts. The bigger you are, the dumber the deal is. What the manufacturers should do is at least offer a plan that makes sense or just over the larger chains a suitable "Spares kit" that has all of the major "take you down" components. Yeah, it will be nearly the price of a projector but you can strategically place them in your regions so that you have replacements handy. And several dozen projectors can feed off them. So if you use a $5K board in a region that has 50 projectors..the region only had to buy effectively a $500 board for that time period rather than a warranty for each and every projector.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 01-05-2014, 04:56 PM:

Christie offered a standard extended warranty of 3 years, maybe there are other plans available if you specifically ask. There's also Christie Managed Services, but that's the other extreme and a rather costly solution...

I agree that such service plans become increasingly "dumb" once you have sufficient volume, but once you have volume you also have some weight during price negotiations.

What you describe, is already essentially how the manufacturers handle their warranty and service. They usually strategically place spare parts in warehouses around the globe and will keep them at some minimum levels, they will never stock grossly more than absolutely required. They're obviously trying to make money out of their after-sales service offerings and they're probably not going to cut their margins on that one.

There might be some market for integrators that would be willing to take some risk and offer some "extended warranty" plans at grossly reduced rates that operate the way you explained. That way, independent cinemas could also benefit from it. There is a bit of a catch though: the ever increasing number of models will make it hard to have spare parts available for each and every model.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-05-2014, 05:17 PM:

Dolby set some very high standards for cinema service as they were building the brand. It helps to have a benign despot as the owner instead of being a publicly traded company with boards of directors and all the inevitable and seemingly weird rules.

Dolby is not alone in this change for sure but IHMO, they had farther to fall. Of course, I would say that being part of the first generation of Dolby cinema guys. [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-05-2014, 08:34 PM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
We're not in Kansas anymore

And Omaha is now moving it's warehouse to Atlanta! (They were close to Kansas at one time.)