Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Barco DP2K10S starting too soon

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Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 11-28-2013, 08:47 PM:

HI everyone,

We've been running our Barco DP2K10S with doremi server and Dolby 3D for 4 months and have been having problems with the starts of about half the movies. I can build a movie and it starts and runs fine one time and the next it may just start playing as soon and I hit play and before the lamp or channels have switched with no real pattern. I've gotten where I just stand by and manually switch to the right format or adjust the sound. On normal start it takes about 40 seconds for the movie to start, tonight it started playing as soon as I hit play. Does anyone have suggestions of what it may be, have had no errors and it only does it at startup, I can play 2D trailers and it switches to 3D fine for movie. It's doing it 2D and 3D

Thanks

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 11-28-2013, 09:06 PM:

Are you leaving enough time at the start for all of the start-up stuff to occur before the movie actually starts?

On my GDC server/Christie projector setup, I play 20 seconds of black at the start of the show and ten seconds at the end. The cues for start and format go at the start of those first 20 seconds, and the shut down cue goes at the very end of the movie before the ten seconds of black is played.

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 11-28-2013, 09:29 PM:

Frank,

My black/pause is just 1 second long but the start cue is about 30 seconds and about half the time it works perfect and I would say for about the first 2 months after getting the machine it worked all the time perfect. Sometime if just starts before anything can change but I've had it take the normal time but the sound doesn't adjust. The starting as soon as I hit play is a new thing, at first it would just wait about normal time and start but not switch the format. I do have black at end of movie and it works great, I've started adding the black/pause between every cue??

Fred

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 11-28-2013, 11:40 PM:

If your setup is different from mine, it may require something other than what works for me here.

Having said that, this is an example of how I set up my playlist here:

black 10secs
-- cue offset 0 "start"
-- cue offset 0 "2D scope"
black 10secs
policy trailer turn off your damn cellphone
-- cue offset 0 "on screen"
trailer
policy trailer welcome to the theatre
-- cue offset 0 "start feature"
feature
-- cue offset whatever-it-is "start credits"
-- cue offset end "stop"
black 10 secs

I could probably get away with one 10 second black at the start instead of two, but I figure that gives the lamp a chance to settle down and I can be sure there will be no flicker at the very beginning of my show by having that extra 10 seconds in there.

I once forgot to put in the black after the feature and the projector didn't turn itself off and the lights didn't come up, so not putting that in at the end is obviously not a great idea.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-29-2013, 05:23 AM:

You need to see how much time it takes for the projector to: turn the lamp on and open the dowser (say 15 seconds), change format (say 10 seconds) and put enough black to allow these changes.

I would recommend 60 seconds of black before the show, first you change the format, 15 seconda later you turn the lamp on. At 55 seconds you then fade out and change the sound format.

That should give the projector plenty of time to complete the cues and the lamp should have a few seconds to warm up.

One second black won't work well unfortunately!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-29-2013, 09:40 AM:

Is this a DP2k-10S with Doremi ShowVault+IMB, or a DP2k-10Sx with the Doremi IMS1000?

- Carsten

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 11-29-2013, 02:47 PM:

You don't want black/pause or anything between cues in the playlist, I don't know how you would put them in there anyway but cue timing is best done in the server macros.
Start the playlist, as suggested, with a fairly long black clip. I usually use 15-20 seconds, but this is tested to see how the effect is in the house.
Don't put a macro in the black at "zero" offset because it will execute if you open a playlist in "pause" (the playlist pauses at 0 sec and executes any macro attached there).
At 1 sec from start of black I attach the show start macro. This macro selects the correct projector "channel", turns on the lamp, switches sound format on the CP, and turns the house lights to "mid dim". That gets tested to see that it all completes and the black clip ends just about when the lights are dimmed.
In the actual show start macro I do put 1 sec delays between commands, this was required with early Doremi server software some years ago and might not be needed now but it's a habit.
With this setup done properly the projector is ready to go - lamp on and lamp power dropped to the right level (the lamp starts at 100% power and holds there for a few seconds) and the lens will have completed any zoom/shift/focus movements needed before the first show clip starts. I've seen a lot of shows where the first trailer or snipestarts with the picture still zooming or shifting and/or is missing the first few seconds because the projector is still setting up when the playlist starts running real content.
If you're doing cue insertion as with Dolby servers by adding individual cues for every automation action into the main playlist, I strongly recommend you take advantage of the Doremi approach: create show start macros for each format you use, a feature cue for lights down and maybe a sound fader increase, a credit cue for lights to mid, and an end cue with lights to full, non-sync sound, and projector lamp off.
This makes playlist building a bunch easier and less error prone. On an installation I leave a set of playlist templates with black clips with the main macros and placeholder content where trailers and feature would go (I use a test clip that shouldn't be deleted like outdated trailers are). The operator just has to open a template, insert the real content, delete the placeholder content, and attach the credit cue where it belongs - then save it with the show name.

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 11-29-2013, 06:14 PM:

Thanks for all the idea's everyone, when I'm at the theatre tonight I'l jot everything down I'm using and try a couple suggestion and post my set up. I'm running the Doremi Show vault &IMB.

Fred

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 12-06-2013, 03:02 PM:

Still no luck with movie starting the same every time, sometimes perfect and others if starts as soon as I choose play.(does it on the 3D and 2D shows just more on 3D)

Here's my start macro

Start 3D

0 Dowser close
0 Playback pause
0Lamp on
0delay 10 seconds
10 swicth channel 4 3D
10 delay 20 seconds
30 sound switch
30 dealy 3 seconds
30 mode 5.1 to CP750
33 delay 3 seconds
36 dowser open
36 delay 1 second
37 play

and here's my play list

000 Black/pause
00 start 3D Scope
00 volume 4
0001 black
02 3D glasses
07 black
07 The hobbit
2;15 black
2;16 walking with dines
2.16sound to 7.1
2;16 vol 5.0
4;10 Frozen 3D
01;52;12 black
01;52;12 showend

Any ideas

Thanks Fred

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-06-2013, 05:42 PM:

As mentioned, can you put some black at the very beginning of the playlist and place your start 3D cue after 1-2 seconds on that black clip?

Never thought of pausing the playback while your macro is executing. I've always just let the playback go (leaving as much black as necessary).

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-06-2013, 06:00 PM:

Well if it starts to early, what's the first image you see on the screen?

- Carsten

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 12-06-2013, 08:42 PM:

It always just starts at the beginning of playlist at put your glasses on

Fred

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 12-06-2013, 10:10 PM:

Before the show tonight I started it a couple time and about half the time it would take the 37 seconds to start and the rest of the time it would start premature, I would choose start and it downloads like it does, then pause for a second (assume the black cue) then start playing the first thing on playlist with sound before lamp or anything chosen. I need the black/pause to build the playlist, it seems the problem is in the start macro which was built by installer.

Fred

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-07-2013, 11:45 AM:

That macro looks too complicated to me anyway. Maybe you should try to build a second one for yourself and test it with that one.

- Carsten

Posted by Fred L West (Member # 6038) on 12-07-2013, 11:55 AM:

Carsten,

Any suggestion on how you would build the start macro?

Fred

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 12-07-2013, 01:11 PM:

I've found that triggering cues at the same time causes problems.
We always put 2 second delays between cues.Also if Barco did the install, they always put a douser close/open cue in the projector macro and this can cause you to miss the first bit of a clip.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-07-2013, 03:10 PM:

Looks to me the server is sometimes not pausing when the macro is executing. Why don't you move the PAUSE command to second 01 and separate it from "lamp on" command?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-08-2013, 11:42 PM:

I see what you're doing. I have used pause/play in macros but had too much trouble with them, similar to what you describe. Now I avoid using pause and play.
My show start macros (flat, scope, 3d flat, 3d scope) are pretty simple - just the cues and 1 sec pauses between them: lamp on, projector channel/macro select, masking, sound to server input, lights to mid-bright, dowser open. I time how long the projector takes to be fully ready - usually about 10 seconds - and extend the pause before the sound and light cues. Then time how long it all takes, and use a black opening segment that long. The first clip then hits the screen cleanly. I like to use a simple black clip length, 20 seconds usually - so nobody has to remember it should be an oddball number like 17 seconds. The start macro gets attached at 1 second after start of the black segment to avoid having it run when someone preloads the playlist with "pause" to do the security checks early.
The only problem is if the operators forget to use a black segment long enough and the first clip starts badly (misses the first several seconds as it plays before the dowser is open and sound is switched over), but that's just a training issue. The only reason for the pause/play is to avoid that bit of training. For independents with less trained staff, I put the feature cue macro and the end cue macro in short black segments - 3 seconds maybe - so the operators can just open last week's playlist, remove the old clips, and insert the new ones - there's no need to attach these cues to content clips. They only have to remember to stick the credit cue macro in the feature.
Your way should work and I don't know why it is failing, but we had a lot of trouble calls for shows that stalled when we used pause/play. I never got to the cause but I had plenty of theories.
This is for Doremi servers - the others use slightly different playlist models and editing systems so the approach is a bit different.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 12-08-2013, 11:54 PM:

quote: Fred L West
Here's my start macro

Start 3D

0 Dowser close
0 Playback pause
0Lamp on
0delay 10 seconds
10 swicth channel 4 3D
10 delay 20 seconds
30 sound switch
30 dealy 3 seconds
30 mode 5.1 to CP750
33 delay 3 seconds
36 dowser open
36 delay 1 second
37 play

I'd separate those cues. You're asking it to do too much at the same time. I split every cue to be at least 1 second apart.