Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC900C V Chiriste Solaria One

This is topic NEC900C V Chiriste Solaria One in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Fevzi Genc (Member # 2940) on 02-22-2014, 01:06 PM:

We are planning to buy compact projector for our 5 small screens (max 6mt). Price and service quality are very similar. Which is the best solutions for us.

Your experiences and opinions will be most important thing for our final desicions.

Thanks,

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 02-22-2014, 03:42 PM:

I am also very interested in this, as it looks like we might get the opportunity to "go digital" - yay!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2014, 07:56 AM:

3D yes/no? At 6m, the NC900C might be a bit too much at the edge for 3D.

Both machines will certainly bring a very similiar image onto the screen - but their server/content storage system is very different. Maybe you dig into these differences first, as the NC900C is variable (either IMS, IMB, or HD-SDI/TLS), while the Solaria One has a single option (externally attached NAS/DAS).

From what I have seen on the forum, there seem to be or have been quite a few issues with the Solaria One, while I hear very few complaints about the NEC. Wether that's just my subjective impression or backed up by real statistics, who knows...

In general, Christies are great machine, but the single IMS option for the Solaria One, I don't know...

- Carsten

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 02-23-2014, 09:52 AM:

I work with several NEC and Christie systems.

My personal experience is that the Solaria 1 systems have been extremely 'buggy'
and have been a lot more tempermental (to put it politely) than the NEC's.

To be fair- - the Chrisite's are nice projectors. They put out a good picture.
Almost all the problems I've had to deal with are related to their IMB and NAS,
systems, and not the 'projector' performance itself.

In the just the past week-

> 1 system had audio/video/sync glitches to the point where a show got cancelled.

>The NAS on one system TOTALLY crashed on Thursday, putting that auditorium
out of commission for a full day until a new NAS could be shipped and installed.

>The Solaria system's I've worked with can ONLY handle ingest via USB, ports,
making the process take a lot longer. I'm not even sure you can install a
CRU bay on one of these sytems to speed up the ingest.

Two of the three theater owners who put these things in have, on more than one
occasion said to me "I wish we'd gotten something else".

The NEC/Dolbydigitalserverthingys (or NEC/GDC) systems I've worked with
have all been relatviely trouble free. That's been my experience.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2014, 10:16 AM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
To be fair- - the Chrisite's are nice projectors. They put out a good picture.
Almost all the problems I've had to deal with are related to their IMB and NAS.

You mean the one thing they FORCE you take with it? That is something I really don't like is this business of having to take "the package" rather than allowing one to choose what they think is best for them.

The whole DCI thing was supposed to ensure one is NOT saddled with a proprietary package system. Why should one have to take a server along with a projector? Since Barco and NEC found a way to have anybody's IMB/IMS system work with their projector, so could have Christie (without adding $1 to the system).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2014, 11:28 AM:

Have installed 28 NC-900's so far and had only a couple lamp failures. A couple units now have over 2000 lamp on hours on them. The projector when it was new wasn't even buggy. It's not 100% ideal for all conditions because it can be too bright in flat for some installations with two lamps running and not bright enough with one running. You can't choose to run one lamp in flat and two in scope as was talked about when it was first released. But if you have an average 24 to 26' wide screen it's pretty hard to beat it.

For ~20 grand for the projector you can't really complain too much, it does it's job and has been reliable. It is the least expensive solution so far and it also draws the least amount of power if you use an IMS or GDC IMB. You'll find the current draw at typical lamp settings to be about 7.5 amps total running on 120 volts.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2014, 12:28 PM:

There is plenty to complain about on the NC900C and plenty to brag about. In my opinion, its color accuracy is WAY too wacky...any change in those lamps (and I mean any)...move the power by 1% and the color moves a bit dramatically. The lens accuracy is horrible...and I mean horrible. It can't hit its mark...ever and the adjustment is way too course to begin with. My limited experience with it has shown that one CAN get a really sharp picture out of it though the lens mount is a bit sloppy. The contrast is really bad on it. Very noticeably so.

Does all of this mean a hill of beans to the average patron? Probably not. They were never too fussy about color quality with film and that would change reel-by-reel, regardless of the equipment installed. Contrast is rather apparently low though...there are no "blacks" with this projector unless you put it on too big a screen. One is probably better off with a slightly gain screen just to hide its pathetic contrast. It will make it hot-spotty but this projector is definitely a trade off.

As Mark said, for something in the low $20Ks...it is in a price all to itself, for now. But it also does not perform like higher priced projectors...it definitely is a 2nd or 3rd tier projector but that may be all a particular theatre needs. It definitely is NOT for screening rooms. For a small multiplex theatre, it should do and the lamps can be changed by the non-technical. Speaking of which...you have to give them a minute or so to warm up before the show starts...and if you turn them off, you'll be waiting 90 seconds before turning them back on again.

One bad feature of this projector...even in "Standby" ...the fans still run as if the projector is on...so if you don't kill the power...your filters will be consumed during your "off" times. My guess is that they did that to keep some IMS systems cool. Too bad they didn't give the option to turn that off for those systems that don't need it or have a single fan that keeps the IMB/IMS cool at night.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 02-23-2014, 12:45 PM:

I have no experience with the Solaria, is the poor contrast a feature of 0.69" chips or just a NEC900 bad design?

Yes, high pressure mercury lamps will change colour temperature when the power is changed, but once you do a colour correction at that power level then it's stable.
Don't get me wrong, I would ban those lamps from Digital Cinema, but considering how the real world is working, a lamp which does not require alignment is worth a little colour inaccuracy.

I do like SONY's solution: some grilles blocking the light. You end up using the lamps at 100% and having the proper light in Flat (all grilles in) and in Scope (no grilles). And given the huge contrast if levels are a little higher than usual, that's perfectly fine.

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 02-23-2014, 03:01 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
...it definitely is a 2nd or 3rd tier projector but that may be all a particular theatre needs

Certainly in our case, we are going into this eyes wide open, and accept that what we (hope we) can afford to do in a part time multi-use community facility will not be patch on what the multiplexes an hours drive away offer. Heck, they have auditoriums without windows!

quote: Steve Guttag
The whole DCI thing was supposed to ensure one is NOT saddled with a proprietary package system. Why should one have to take a server along with a projector?

Without disagreeing in any way, for the tiny operator, having a "one box solution" that just works is highly attractive. Being an IT professional, and having more than a passing familiarity with entertainment technologies, I have no worries about dealing with what is, in effect, an IT system, but not all of my co-vounteers are as comfortable with these technologies as I am...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-23-2014, 04:23 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
I have no experience with the Solaria, is the poor contrast a feature of 0.69" chips or just a NEC900 bad design?

NEC, Christie, Barco each may tweak their machines a little bit for brightness OR contrast, but in general the S2k chipset has a noticeable lower contrast than the 1.2" - just as the 0.98" performs slightly less than these. And because of the (same) higher pixel density, the 4k DLP contrast suffers considerably as well.

Surprisingly, even the new laser illuminated version of the NC900C, the NC1100L, so far is spec'd with the same mediocre 1600:1 - same chipset.

Solaria One+: >1900:1
Solaria One: >1700:1
Barco DP2k-10Sx: >1850:1
NEC NC-900C; 1600:1/1800:1 (depending on source)

With the average well lit movie, they still throw a nice image because of the DLP inherent high ANSI/InPicture contrast. But the blacks in darker scenes...

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-23-2014, 04:39 PM:

As for the "one box solution"...one can order Any of the "S2K" projectors with a server inside. Christie isn't offering anything special there. Furthermore, it doesn't take an IT professional to insert an IMB into a projector. If you can operate your hands...you can do it. Furthermore, one may have other servers in the larger theatres and one may want to "match" their "move over" houses. There is no reason to force one to use a particular server and there really isn't a benefit to it, unless you particularly like the Christie IMB and SMS that comes with it. Likewise for any of the servers, they all have their ups and downs.

Even if it is an "all-in-one" it is FAR from ready to run out of the box. So if it is a sales ploy...it is a deceptive one.

I would MUCH rather have server uniformity than be forced into an odd-ball server/SMS to get an all-in-one.

As I said, these projectors may be appropriate for some theatres but they are not equivalent to their bigger siblings in the .98" or 1.2" versions. It is more than just lumen output.

The NC900C at 1600:1 is probably a stretch.

Posted by Tim OBrien (Member # 5605) on 02-23-2014, 07:11 PM:

quote: Jim Cassedy
The Solaria system's I've worked with can ONLY handle ingest via USB, ports,
making the process take a lot longer. I'm not even sure you can install a
CRU bay on one of these sytems to speed up the ingest

The Christie IMB ingest port is a combination USB/eSATA which works with a CRU drive.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-23-2014, 08:09 PM:

Carsten,

All the small projectors represent one compromise or another. Thats what you get when you are down in the lower price range. These small projectors are really "Theater Saver Projectors" rather than actual projectors in my view. The theaters that are buying them would have othersise closed down for good had they not come along... at least thats how it is with many of my customers that bought them. If you want less compromise then spend the money and go for a .98" or even a 1.2" projector. Thereality is, you can only bounce so much light into and then back off of a given size surface and still hold contrast. You get diffusion occuring on the surface and window of the small dmd's as well as in the prism itself and the lens. It's amazing it is even as good as it is. I could easily live with the Barko or the NEC and I regularly quote both to customers. I won't touch the Christie because of it's fixed IMB.

Mark

Posted by Tim OBrien (Member # 5605) on 02-23-2014, 09:45 PM:

Mark, your comments puzzle me. You've bragged incessantly about the NC900C and now suggest that the S2K machines are not "actual projectors" at all. As I recall, the price differential between the S2K and .98" projectors was about $10k. Was this really a deal breaker for theatres already choking down a $35-$40k bill for conversion?

The S2K projectors were developed for smaller screens which perhaps could get by with a few less bells and whistles (Christie LampLoc for instance). I don't understand how a .69" DMD projecting on a 22' screen represents a huge compromise compared to a .98" projecting on a 40' screen. Isn't it all relative?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-24-2014, 12:43 AM:

$10K/screen adds up REAL fast when you don't have it!

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-24-2014, 01:38 AM:

I had the same experience as Guttag. In a multi-screen with a 2210 and 2230, they just ran out of money and bought the Solaria instead of the 2210 despite all the warning, cajoling, etc.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-24-2014, 08:13 AM:

Money Matters.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-24-2014, 08:41 AM:

I know that as a dealer, I'd rather be paid with money you have rather than money you hope to attain!

Recently we put in an NC900C where there had been only Barcos (20C and 12C) to finish off a non-profit complex. The NC900 had MORE than enough light for the screen so that wasn't an issue. The other theatres had Dolby servers and so does the new one...the others had eCNA automations and so does the new one. As a result, despite being a different projector, the user interface is really identical. The new screen joined the TMS system and appears the same...the automation is configured so their opening/closing procedures are identical for that screen as the others (no different buttons/switches are needed). That is one reason I prefer separate automations too...it ensures that the user-experience is uniform...same cues, same everything despite being different equipment. Since Dolby handles TMS functions for up to 3 screens without the purchase of an external TMS/LMS system, it cost them nothing to add this one screen to the TMS.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-24-2014, 10:28 PM:

quote: Tim OBrien
As I recall, the price differential between the S2K and .98" projectors was about $10k. Was this really a deal breaker for theatres already choking down a $35-$40k bill for conversion?

It's actually considerably more than 10K to jump to the .98" chips. More like 14K to 17K extra depending on pedestal, automation and other accessories you might want or need. You are forgetting that the price of the 900C or the Barco 10SX INCLUDES the lens and lamp(s) and that there are budget priced pedestals for them in the $500.00 realm. Those are all extras if you jump to say an NC-1200 or equivelent size Cristie or Barco. Some of the larger more flexible pedestals are over 2 grand with electrics if you require such a beast, expect to pay at least a grand here. Is your audio system in the projection console? Now you have to buy a rack and have all of it moved over to the new rack and rewired in. You'd never believe how many sound systems I had to re-locate in the last 5 years! If you have an oddball throw the lens can set you back as much as 6 grand with an average lens costing in the 4 grand region. PLUS the difference in cost of the projector and all the added shipping expense.

Don't forget the electricians that you are gonna need to hook up the 220 volts to that mid sized projector unless you are licensed to do it yourself. None of them run on 120 volts like the NC-900 does where legally YOU can plug it in the wall outlet and do your own installs... if you know how. So lets just say 14 grand a booth more to be conservative plus some extra electrical and possibly hvac expenses.

Oh and one last thing... How is your exhaust blower? The S2K projectors ventilate into the room but I've had instances where the heat builds up too much and you still need to run the booth exhaust to keep booth temperature under control.

The average one show a night single screen second run location is never ever gonna see pay back even on the small 40 grand projector. For the many drive inns that have converted it is even worse. All these places are buying this out of pocket, a few have even had equipment donated when they told the community they would have to close down.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-25-2014, 05:49 AM:

Mark...all Barco projectors always included the lens and the crappy Osram lamp.

The jump is normally not as much as Mark is stating. Before we arrive we have an L6 type outlet at the ready...yes there is a cost to adding the outlet...but there may not be a 120V circuit there with enough extra amperage either. We have required a fresh circuit for the NC900s too. As for pedestals...there are cheap pedestals for the .98" projectors...heck Christie's Solaria 1 is the same footprint as the CP2215...then again so is the DP2K-10S versus the DP2K-C...the 10S is only less tall...but the feet land in the same places.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-25-2014, 06:42 AM:

I haven't seen recent offers for 2210 (or 2215), but the difference between an S2k with integrated server and the smallest 0.98+standard server used to be in the +15to20 kUS$ range. Or, in other words, due to more or less identical hardware and installation effort, the difference between the smaller 1.2" and a 2210 used to be in the 5000-10.000US$ range. Even the Barco DP2K-10Sx with the most similarities (modularity) to a 'real' series 2 machine like the 2210 is WAY cheaper than that.

In the beginning when the IMS1000 was not yet available, they even delivered it with the Doremi IMB+SV combo at no additional cost, which was great deal to have a real server with it.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-25-2014, 04:46 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Mark...all Barco projectors always included the lens and the crappy Osram lamp.

The jump is normally not as much as Mark is stating.

Well, you make it sound like it's included free Steve when it certainly isn't. Barco projectors are considerably higher priced to begin with so that lens cost is just reflecting that higher projector cost. You are still paying for it either way. You are still forgetting the more expensive pedestal, more shipping expense and any hvac expenses.

Having the outlet in a head of time is a nice idea. It doesn't work in every situation though as there may be no place to hook it to until present equipment is disconnected and removed so breakers are freed up. It may also not land where you need t due to other conflicting stuff mounted where you need it to go. It really doesn't save any time having it installed before hand. I much prefer to have the electrician present when I am present so there is no mis-communication on what is needed or where. There is always plenty of time for him to do his thing while dismantling is taking place.

Carsten... I no longer see any difference in using a built in a server vs. a full size server. Both use the same GUI, GDC at least has the same HD space available (it is also easily moved around) and I know Doremi is a bit lacking there but still passable, you can fit a cru bay to it and both large and small work exactly the same. In a large multiplex the full size servers are going to cost considerably more for power than the plug in alternatives. 300 watts per server vs. about 40 watts per plug in IMS is a huge amount of money spent for nothing gained (except a larger power bill) over a years time. The reality is the plug in servers offer more methods for media storage than larger servers have yet to adapt themselves to.

Mark

Posted by Igor Maliuk (Member # 8168) on 03-30-2014, 12:35 AM:

We are looking for a projector for small cinema
Actually we consider NEC NC 900 and BARCO 8sx
Which would you advise?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-30-2014, 01:17 PM:

What is your quoted price difference?

The Barco definitely is the higher quality built machine, and more flexible. If you can afford it, get it. If you're short on money, the NEC will serve your needs probably just as well.

- Carsten

Posted by Igor Maliuk (Member # 8168) on 04-16-2014, 11:46 AM:

What about exloatation cost?