Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Replacing the white power switch on NEC NC2000

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Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-18-2014, 10:44 PM:

This is a little bit of a rant. The design of the NC2000 clearly didn't take into consideration the possibility the white power switch might have to be changed. Although the switch its self pops out relatively easily, the 4 wires attached to the switch are not long enough to actually pull the switch out. Instead, you have to work inside a very tight space to remove the wire and then reconnect them. I would up having to remove the front cover from the projector, which required unhooking the 'baffle' around the lens.

This should have been a quick 5 minute job that wound up taking at least 15 minutes longer than necessary.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-18-2014, 10:55 PM:

That stupid switch is clearly a design flaw in an otherwise nice machine. Why they couldn't use a heavy duty, industrial super-duper grade switch, rather than that cheap thing, is just a mystery.

I have to admit it makes me wonder where else they cut corners.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 03-18-2014, 11:56 PM:

It is because Caucasians are too damn tall. Their hands are too big. (Crazy People)

I have a wire terminal puller, which are hard to find, but it is essentially a flat-head screwdriver bent at a 90 degree angle and the tip is split just a bit wider than the metal spade the terminal goes on. Takes a couple of seconds for each one.

And I agree, could they have used a cheaper switch? Such a thing is not made by man.

Posted by Lance C. McFetridge (Member # 95) on 03-19-2014, 09:07 AM:

Joe:
Would you be kind enough to post a picture of that tool?
Thanks
Lance

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-20-2014, 10:18 PM:

quote: Joe Elliott
Such a thing is not made by man.

You're right! It's made by crazy Germans! And Strong charges like $80.00 for the buggers and they are sold in in G.B. for 12 euros at RS Electronics (Same as Newark). For a German made switch it is incredibly cheesy. I haven't seen any failures in almost a year now though so hopefully the switch has been beefed up internally. They ALWAYS break in the OFF position! It can be easily bypassed and I have had several customers do that until a new one arrives.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-21-2014, 04:08 AM:

There are no euros here! [Smile]

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-21-2014, 04:16 AM:

I saw a comment on here several years ago - possibly by Mark, talking about how those switches were prone to failure. Since not long after that we have had several on the shelf. Between the 12 projectors at our 2 locations we have had about 5 switch fail so far. The one I just replace was on our oldest projector, but the first one I replaces (about 6 months ago) was on a projector that is more than a year newer.

What I've done now is plug the projector power into a power conditioner that gets switched off every night. This way the white switch always stays in the On position unless it need to be powered off for maintenance or something.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-21-2014, 06:11 PM:

Why not just leave the projectors in standby anyway? Most of my customers do this. It's easier on the projector. That is assuming you have a UPS on the projector...

Mark

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-21-2014, 08:16 PM:

The guy who pays the bills just feels that the money spent on electricity to keep 12 projectors in standby for 12-18 hours each day is far more expensive than the cost of replacing a few switches each year. If there was evidence that completely powering down each day resulted in more failed ICP or legacy boards, then it would be a different argument.

Personally, it just feels wrong to walk out of the booth at night with as much left on as we have now. I'm still not completely past the idea that the booth should be completely silent when I lock the door at the end of the night.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-21-2014, 10:28 PM:

They draw about 20 watts in standby. So, a few cents a day.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 03-21-2014, 11:37 PM:

I'm with Justin. (P.S. How do you quote on this forum?!?!?)

We've got 7 NECs and 3 Barcos. The NECs we put into standby, and the Barcos just have an on/off switch and get switched off.

Anyways, it really drives me up the wall to have all the servers on and projectors in standby and all the little lights blinking and all that at the end of the night. One of my FAVORITE things as a projectionist was at the end of the night, especially Thursday nights, turning everything off as usual and then just sitting in the middle of the pitch black, silent booth to just relax and collect my thoughts for a while before leaving the building much calmer.

I know it's silly, but it was really special.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-22-2014, 12:15 AM:

I know what you mean. A few years ago we had our marquee neon upgraded, and they put an electrical box in the booth that makes a slight "hum" when the marquee is running. It took me a long time to get used to still hearing that hum when I had shut everything else off for the night. Now, the hum is drowned out by all the other stuff that's still running.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-22-2014, 09:30 AM:

What is the failure mode of the white switch? Something mechanical with the toggle or something with the contacts? I haven't touched mine since the projector was new but wondering if it could still fail.

Since separating the electronics feed, I have the IEC cord plugged into an outlet box with a switch that is attached to my base and that plugs into the UPS. That's what I switch off daily and were that electrician-type switch to fail I could just pull the cord and plug it into the UPS directly.

I wouldn't wouldn't mind leaving the machine in standby if it was just some electronics but I don't like the fans grinding away wearing out bearings and using up air filter capacity. Plus it gets annoyed if the lamp power is turned off and that's even more fans running. As a screening room, our schedule is rather irregular so it can be days between uses.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-22-2014, 09:39 AM:

quote: Steve Kraus
What is the failure mode of the white switch? Something mechanical with the toggle or something with the contacts?

Ours at least was mechanical. The switch starts feeling mushy (doesn't snap into place) and eventually just won't connect.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2014, 10:47 AM:

We've told all of our customers to NEVER use that white switch. While our current mode is to have projectors go to standby at night (those that have a standby mode like NEC or Christie or even the Barco 10s), we are thinking of killing power to the projectors...particularly the NEC since it runs one fan all night (FAN 6, the AC power fan). I don't believe there is any benefit to leaving it on since it gets from power to standby in less than 15-seconds (Christie is notably longer since it has to boot up Windows).

In screening rooms, there may be months between uses of the projector. I've had two LVPS die in the "off" time when nobody was using the room...only to find a dead projector when they needed the room.

I've always been in favor of using common things like breakers, light switches...etc to do this sort of switching. When on uses the power switch of a device...the duty cycle of that switch is often an unknown...it will fail, eventually. When it fails, the cost of the part and the time it takes to obtain, change is ALWAYS going to be higher than using a common-use item.

When electricians have commented about using breakers since most (particularly low-bid) are not "switch rated" I return with:

We are never switching the rated load of the breaker and often just a small amount
The replacement breaker is cheaper and more available than the specialty switch
The cost of changing the breaker is cheaper than the specialty switch

I mean really, how long does a breaker last, particularly good ones like Square-D QO series with a daily use cycle? 10-years? What do they cost at the nearest home-center or even electrical supply house? $10 or less? Compare that to changing a specialty switch.
Note, the NC900C leaves full fans on 24-hours so it is even more of an issue for that one.

Posted by Philip Jones (Member # 6677) on 03-22-2014, 10:58 AM:

How much is a replacement white switch and how easy are they to change? Are they standard between models (we have a 2000 and a 1200)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-22-2014, 11:38 AM:

The failure mode in every instance for me was it breaks in the off position. Then you have no way to power up the projector. There were still no loss of shows though at any of the sites that had failures. The switch is uber easy to temporarily bypass till a new one arrives. Sites with multiple projectors all have a spare switch. No issues with failures on NC-900 or the NC3200/3240's.

I still personally prefer to have the projector left in standby and servers shut down (you have to if using an IMB anyway). I am the NOC for many of my customers and it allows me to to do remote updates. I can wake the servers up remotely too. The power consumption from these booths when running is almost always way less than the film booth it replaced. So no reason not to leave em in standby. But again assuming it is on a UPS. Some on here think they can get away with out them... [Eek!]

Those that are out to save power consider installing LED light bulbs in your auditoriums if you want to see a real difference in your power bill. If you have Kelmar dimmers there are a number of inexpensive LED lamps that work just fine on them. All but a few of my customers use the Kelmars and many have already converted over.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-22-2014, 03:30 PM:

We have automated the power to the projectors so they can be remotely powered too. The end user turns on the projector with the automation...this extends to the sound and other booth functions. Furthermore, it can be placed on a schedule or even done via the POS schedule so that maximum energy savings can be had. Though I think Film-Tech is the most advanced in this respect.

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-22-2014, 05:11 PM:

Mark, do your locations that power down the servers use an LMS? With the LMS we leave our servers on so content can be transferred during the night. I believe the Strong NOC requires the servers to be left on anyways.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 03-24-2014, 11:59 AM:

I have found that when they fail, they are actually sticking, not usually a mechanical failure. You can sometimes, in an emergency, smack the projector on the top above the switch and it will then work. This only works once or twice before it will not work any more. Also as a note, violence and technology . . . not good bedfellows. Only do this in an emergency, and only in the presence of trained stunt professionals.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-24-2014, 07:13 PM:

Steve,

Yes, that's very easy to do with the ECNA-5 for sure but is an added expense. It's even easy to auto power up the entire booth if really necessary. I have one theater on two different levels of a three story building where that might be advantageous, but they still have 2 full time projectionists there that split the week and that's not going to change. In fact most of the theaters I service still have a projectionist, though some are just part time. I find that my customers that have multiple screens and or multiple locations would rather employ real people than rely on automation for the most part. And that is strictly their choice. And I will have to admit that many of the projectionists are very competent with the digital gear where they were not with film.

Justin,

All of my customers that are on VPF are on the GDC VPF program and as such they do not require the equipment to be left on. It is far less hassle than Christie or Cinedigm and there is no uber expensive TMS required. I built all of the TMS systems for my customers. They are simple and affordable, yet very reliable with a zero failure rate so far. And once the VPF contract is met the TMS software an be easily upgraded to anyone else's if desired. They cost about 1/3 the price of a Strong/Cinedigm rack and have very similar build quality.

If you have IMB based servers and you leave the servers run then to power up the gear the next day you have to first power down the server then boot up the projector.... then boot the server up again. IMB's get their power from the projector, so power down the projector and you loose the media block and the Security Manager connectivity. Hence, it is generally just the projectors left in standby.

No one I currently service is using any contracted NOC. Nor do I offer service contracts because frankly, my customers have so few problems that it would be a waste of their money. That might change as the equipment gets older though. Only time will tell that part of the story. GDC does not require a contracted NOC either as long as your service tech is looking after the gear. So I am the NOC for close to 50 of my customer's locations that are on the GDC VPF program and I just bill it out on a time spent basis. Many of these customers were among GDC's first ones and their equipment will already be paid up by the end of this year! The other 150 locations I service are also looked after even if there is no TMS and they are billed on a time spent basis. All locations except for one Drive in have a "Cinema Service Care" remote computer that all equipment can be accessed through if any issues arise or if updates need to be done.

On another interesting note, almost all my customers still prefer that I visit the site at least one time a year and some two or three times depending on the hours the equipment runs. Some are in important locations that Hollywood people frequent. So much of the updating of equipment I do is actually done on site. I also check all sound systems and other ancillary equipment. Power connections get checked every year for tightness, etc. Since we actually get to go on site we try to do as much preventative stuff as is feasible.
Mark

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-24-2014, 07:22 PM:

Interesting to know about the GDC VPF program. Unfortunately, I think we were already signed up with Cinedigm/Strong by the time GDC came on-line with their program.

I do like having the Cinedigm TCC software, so that is one upside of their program. I haven't even seen the TMS software for any other vendor, so I have no idea how they compare.

The main downside with using Strong for our NOC is they are charging $35(?) per screen per month to do nothing more than pull logs - they offer no tech support services.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-25-2014, 03:24 PM:

Yes, GDC came along a little later on. I did some Cinedigm racks for customers that HAD to convert right away... but most those sites were ultimately sold off. I have only one Cinedigm site that I maintain at present and they also use the Strong NOC.

For pulling the play logs GDC has their own "Daily Reporter" app that is always running in the background on the TMS server. So there is no need for any NOC to do this. It seems to work really well as all my customers have been getting paid. So no one in effect has to go in and pull the daily play lists, it's all automatically done.

As far as software the Cinedigm stuff is overly complicated and not in the least self intuitive, although it is very comprehensive. I really dislike the stupid cueing system you are stuck using with Cinedigm. It is beyond retarded!! Plus, their sowtware is both difficult to teach to, and difficult for newbies to learn. GDC is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum where it is probably way too simple and doesn't offer quite enough options. But it has been stable when run on a capable server. The latest version that was recently released is by far the best of the lot. Once you are contractually done with your GDC program you can keep using the TMS as is if you want to or you can delete their program and install some one else's program if you like. The GDC software is pretty inexpensive on a per screen renewal basis though. So I think many of my customers will stay with it.

Mark

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 03-27-2014, 05:53 PM:

I agree with Mark's comments. I explain it to my customers that the Cinedigm software is more automated therefore less time investment each week, and the GDC TMS requires more time, but gives you more creative control.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2014, 07:05 PM:

I donno Joe... Scheduling films on the GDC stuff is pretty dang easy and so is making changes in case you decide to drop a show.
I have several customers that transfer six or more shows around their complex all at once and it gets done without error.

Perhaps if you have a 14 plex the Cinedigm software might be of more use but in a normal smallish plex it's generally just more nightmare trying to keep people trained in it's use. I don't get any complaints from any customers using the GDC software although we did have three installations with just dual-dual core servers and those have all been upgraded to dual quad core servers. GDC needs at least a single quad core to run stable and dual quad cores work even better. Helps dong multiple screen transfers along considerably!

Mark

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 03-27-2014, 08:09 PM:

For my situation, the Cinedigm software is pretty painless once the configuration is done. I do my scheduling in my POS management software, and this automatically syncs to the LMS. All I have to do is build the trailer and ad packs, and attach them to the affected CPL. I don't do any scheduling on the LMS with the exception of the occasional special showing. The only thing I have to do to the CPL is enter the show template to use, credit offset and sound (5.1, 6.1, 7.1)(which should be handled by metadata). I don't deal with automation cues or format changes.

In terms of ingesting, I have to put in the hard drive when it doesn't come by satellite. Then I have to map the CPL to the appropriate title - this is the link between the POS data and the LMS data for those who don't know.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-27-2014, 09:22 PM:

It's nice when it works but not all ticketing systems do work that way. With some ticketing systems you have to manually import the schedule...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-27-2014, 11:59 PM:

All of our Cinedigm systems have been working pretty painlessly for years now. There really isn't a comparison between the two ...Cinedigm is more full-featured...GDC has a lot of manual work to it. Both do function as a TMS but Cinedigm is going to do more of the work.