Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Looking for good technician in Mexico.

This is topic Looking for good technician in Mexico. in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001887

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 05-03-2014, 10:40 PM:

Hey guys!

I just got hired as Projection & Sound Supervisor in a local Cinépolis complex (the biggest cinema chain here).
It's a 12plex, and many houses are not properly EQ'd and one of it has serious sound problems.

So, do any of you know of a good tech in West or Southwest Mexico who can leave our theatre looking and sounding great? I don't know specifics yet (I start working in a month from now) but I do know we have some good equipment here, it's just the last guy on the job didn't make a good work maintaining it.

I'm really interested in our theatre having excellent picture and sound, so any advice on operating the booth also will be truly appreciated! It's my first job and I'd like to make it right.

Also, I'd like to know the budget range we'll need.

Thanks in advice! [Smile]

Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 05-03-2014, 10:57 PM:

Carlos, I thought Cinepolis used a lot of their own people, I know some of them and they are very good, but there are some good independent technicians in Mexico as well...a company called ECASA and also another guy, Fulgencio Leon

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-04-2014, 01:37 AM:

Fulgencio(sp) is very good but he was with said circuit before departing so there was maybe some issue there.

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 05-05-2014, 05:01 PM:

Thanks, Sam and Mike!

Mike: Do you know some names of good techs working for Cinepolis? 'cause the guys who EQ'd a near complex which just opened left it sounding dull and it sounds like a lot of the film's music is lost (I have made the comparison, watching the same movie at both plexes).

Also, do any of you know how can I contact Fulgencio? I can't find any info of him on the internet.

Thanks!

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-05-2014, 06:01 PM:

Here's what I have.

4431884851

fleon@3deon.com.mx

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 05-06-2014, 05:49 PM:

Thanks!

Posted by Miguel Cruz (Member # 7325) on 07-29-2014, 02:33 AM:

Hi Carlos, if you need a technician in Mex for digital cinema and audio equipment you can contact me macruzsalinas@icloud.com

Regards

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 07-29-2014, 12:34 PM:

Hi again.

Our district manager, upon multiple requests, finally sent us the tech assigned to our region: Francisco Xavier Gutierrez Morales, to do the job.

Regarding sound, it definitely improved. Sound is a lot more dynamic now, and sounds much better in general.
However, it still sounds kinda dead (as if the soundmix lacks life) and music keeps sounding muffled and definitely not as rich as I've heard another Cinepolis' theatres sound. On the other hand, bass is amazing. You can literally feel it in your stomach on big, action sequences.

I'm starting to think it's just the best one can make the new Klipsch speakers sound. It's my understanding, however, that Cinepolis has been using Klipsch speakers for quite a lot now, but somehow they can't get my theater sound good, while others do.

It's worth noting the complex I'm comparing my theatre with opened in 2006 (that's the only Cinepolis plex in the city, besides the one I'm at), so, unless Klipsch made major changes to their speakers' manufacturing after 2006, I don't know what's making my theatre sound like that.

About the tech I mentioned above: has anyone seen his work? Is he good?

Miguel: Thanks a lot! I'll talk to my manager and will certainly contact you if the techs at the chain can't get it right.

Thanks a lot for your help.

As a side note: I think all of you would be very happy in México, since here, every Cinépolis theatre in the country, EVERY SINGLE ONE, is equipped with movable masking, and the company has no plans on changing that. [beer]

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-29-2014, 02:41 PM:

quote: Carlos Villalpando
About the tech I mentioned above: has anyone seen his work? Is he good?

You expect someone here to comment on this tech in a public forum that he might read? I do not know him but would not comment either way even if I did.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-29-2014, 03:24 PM:

quote: Carlos Villalpando
Regarding sound, it definitely improved. Sound is a lot more dynamic now, and sounds much better in general.
However, it still sounds kinda dead (as if the soundmix lacks life) and music keeps sounding muffled and definitely not as rich as I've heard another Cinepolis' theatres sound. On the other hand, bass is amazing. You can literally feel it in your stomach on big, action sequences.

I'm starting to think it's just the best one can make the new Klipsch speakers sound. It's my understanding, however, that Cinepolis has been using Klipsch speakers for quite a lot now, but somehow they can't get my theater sound good, while others do.

Loudspeakers are only one factor in how movies will sound in a given space.

It's impossible to diagnose a situation without knowing about the system components, the full signal flow, and the acoustic properties of the space.

Additionally, there may be equipment defects that have yet to be discovered. For example, your Klipsch loudspeakers may sound different from those at the other site(s) because you may have blown HF drivers. Then again, your speakers may be fine, and there may be some other technical issue that is limiting their performance.

quote: Carlos Villalpando
It's worth noting the complex I'm comparing my theatre with opened in 2006 (that's the only Cinepolis plex in the city, besides the one I'm at), so, unless Klipsch made major changes to their speakers' manufacturing after 2006, I don't know what's making my theatre sound like that.

When was YOUR location built? The architectural designs may have evolved over time. I worked for a chain in The Bahamas and the auditorium spec's got a little better each time they built a new plex.

Something else to consider: Is the application of the technology correct and consistent? Does the same tech setup all of the theaters? Does the tech have a certain procedure that he follows to (more or less) ensure consistency across locations? Or is s/he reinventing the wheel each time out? If there are multiple techs, is there a standard procedure they're all supposed to follow? A standard set of test gear? Test material? Is there a standard, specific result they are supposed to achieve?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-29-2014, 04:34 PM:

From this thread it seems that the engineer arrived at your cinema after or on the 5th (you posted a message in the afternoon then and you did not mention you had already found someone) and at midday on the 7th you claimed that the sound had been looked into.

12 auditoriums, less than 2 days?

No proper job can be done in such a short time by anybody, regardless of their skills. It sounds like an auto-EQ or a 'here is your Dolby curve, now let me move my single microphone to the next room and do the same', which is what most people do.
It may be better than nothing but since sound does not go off over time, I believe in investing a little time ONCE and enjoy the amazing time for the years to come.

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 07-29-2014, 08:13 PM:

quote: Manny Knowles
When was YOUR location built? The architectural designs may have evolved over time.

Actually, that's the interesting part. My theatre is relatively new, it opened late November 2013, and has sounded this way since day one. So, I don't think it's blown drivers.

quote: Marco Giustini
From this thread it seems that the engineer arrived at your cinema after or on the 5th (you posted a message in the afternoon then and you did not mention you had already found someone) and at midday on the 7th you claimed that the sound had been looked into.

12 auditoriums, less than 2 days?

Actually, the "05" and "07" on the dates indicate month, not day. [Wink]

The big time lap is due to our district manager not sending us a tech after we requested it multiple times.

But, actually, the guy DID do the job in less than 2 days, it was my day off, and on the next day he was gone. I would have definitely loved to be there at the time he was doing the work, to check everything, but we just didn't know when he was coming, or even that he was going to come.

Apparently (as the manager told me) he just came in, said "I'm the technician...", did his thing and just leave. Which also makes me think he did it BETWEEN SHOWS, for no shows were cancelled that day.

I can't honestly blame the manager for not checking on him to do things right, he just doesn't know any better about technical stuff. (I'm not saying that's a good attribute for a manager, though).

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 07-30-2014, 04:12 AM:

quote:
Actually, the "05" and "07" on the dates indicate month, not day. [Wink]

Do'h!

Sorry, it works the other way round up here!

Anyway... between shows? LOL! You're lucky the sound has improved. I reckon he just placed the microphone, pressed the "auto-EQ" button and walked away.
What sound processors do you have?

A properly designed sound system seldom breaks down and if you do an good EQ, it will last forever. Periodic checks are good, but I don't believe in 'periodic EQ's", particularly when the original EQ took a while to tweak the sound for the best result: you are likely to get a worse outcome.

Anyway, that's how it works most of the time. If the company is happy with that approach and they are not allocating more than 20 minutes for each auditorium, that is the best you can have.

From my perspective tuning a sound system I have never seen before (either brand new or tuned by someone else) takes several hours, particularly if it's bi/tri/quad-amped.

You can do it in half a hour, but you will get a random result. It may be quite good or it may be quite poor. Just setting up a multiplexer will take some time. Clearly, taping a microphone to a broom stick is quicker! [Smile]

Posted by Carlos Villalpando (Member # 7411) on 07-31-2014, 08:36 PM:

quote:
Do'h! [Roll Eyes]
Sorry, it works the other way round up here!

It does here too. I guess I got accustomed to read it both ways. [Razz]

quote: Marco Giustini
Anyway, that's how it works most of the time. If the company is happy with that approach and they are not allocating more than 20 minutes for each auditorium, that is the best you can have.

I don't know for sure if the company actually wants it done this way, because I've heard other locations sound really great. I don't know why the tech chose to act this way. Maybe he saw no one was supervising, took advantage of it and did it the quick way.

quote: Manny Knowles
Is the application of the technology correct and consistent? Does the same tech setup all of the theaters? Does the tech have a certain procedure that he follows to (more or less) ensure consistency across locations? Or is s/he reinventing the wheel each time out?

I have no knowledge of his procedures whatsoever.

As for consistency, I've visited a 21 plex in Guadalajara city a couple of times, (which is also part of our region) and sound was pretty much the same.

I suppose there isn't just one tech servicing our district, and that's the reason for some venues sounding really good and others sounding just "meh".

- What do you guys think it's best for us to do? Should we request for a different technician to come? Or ask for the same guy to return and do things right?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-01-2014, 04:25 PM:

I would gather more information to isolate the issue. Is the sound not sound good with intermission music, Blu Rays; anything other than DCPs.

It could be something is miswired in some way, speakers, crossovers, etc.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-02-2014, 04:15 AM:

quote: Carlos Villalpando
I don't know for sure if the company actually wants it done this way, because I've heard other locations sound really great. I don't know why the tech chose to act this way. Maybe he saw no one was supervising, took advantage of it and did it the quick way.

Sound is not like picture. If your colour meter says 0.314 x 0.351, you're done.

Sound measurement is flawed. Dolby curve does not tell the truth all the time.
Dialing the X-curve and walk away will give you random results depending on the acoustic of the room, the equipment status etc. etc.
Dialing the X-Curve with the auto-EQ will give you even more poor results.

The other cinema may have better acoustic and the X-curve sounds better there. It is not so easy, if you have three different sound engineers there, they will end up with three different results and they will do things differently from each other.

What you can say is that you're not happy with the sound and you want someone back.

You should also consider the possibility that there is nothing wrong with your sound and that your personal taste is telling you it is.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-02-2014, 02:19 PM:

Actually I disagree on this. If you use an R-2 or D-2 analyzer there is actually a lot of meaning and truth built into the curve you've created. It is also repeatable and very accurate. Well worth the investment. Using a single mic or other 4 mc system is virtually a waste of time and does not afford any real curve. If you do sound and you don't at least own an R-2 then you aren't really a sound tech in my opinion.

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-02-2014, 03:49 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
If you use an R-2 or D-2 analyzer there is actually a lot of meaning and truth built into the curve you've created. It is also repeatable and very accurate.

I do not doubt that this applies in the case of a good room and good equipment. Still, I would argue tha there is only so much that can be done with EQ in the case of a bad room or with poorly specified equipment. Lots of old theatres have one or more nasty resonant frequencies, and setups involving loudspeakers intended for music reproduction and not cinema use seem to vary widely based on the crossover point(s) being used.

(I am not claiming that this is the case here. One can reasonably expect that a modern multiplex would have good equipment and acoustical treatment.)

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-03-2014, 11:26 AM:

Alas, but there are a lot of little things one can do that help the overall picture of how well the system works in a given room. I can't begin to tell you how many speakers I have found that are 12" and further from the back side of the screen. Some installer just don't get it. Poor aiming is also very common, out of phase LF and he, old diaphragms not performing to spec, filthy backside of screens, etc. Add correcting those together and you can some times make a pretty drastic improvement with out spending a dime on material. I've never had any really awful rooms to service and the few that I run into I have turned them down. It's pretty simple really... If an exhibitor isn't interested in at least some quality of presentation then he doesn't deserve my service nor do I want to be associated with his cinema. I have yet to encounter a system the R-2 didn't make a positive difference on... One also has to be aware of what an existing system is capable of and try not to exceed that lest you shorten it's life span.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-03-2014, 05:13 PM:

Mark,

You're disagreeing with the physics behind the X-curve then. The reverberant field depends on the acoustic. That is why there are several X-curves and other approaches. The D2 have several curves to display on screen depending on the size of the room: if you own a D2 you must have noted them. How do you choose which curve to use? How can you confirm the curve you used was the correct one if you just walk away after dialing the 'Dolby curve'?

You must have reference material and you must play it after the EQ. Walking away is just plain wrong. The D2 is a better tool but if you don't use it properly you will still achieve a pretty poor job. The best screwdriver won't prevent you from damaging a screw if you don't use it properly.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-04-2014, 12:31 PM:

Which curve used depends on the volume of the room you are setting up. The best feature of these analyzers is they are able to take the room into account during the process, even the R-2 does this. You can't do that with any other single or multiple mic system that's commercially available. And you can go back and repeat all this in the same room at a later date and arrive at exactly the same results. Even fully horn loaded systems benefit from using this analyzer.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-04-2014, 01:26 PM:

if you mean going back to the same room, dial the same curve and obtain the same result, I agree.

But that is not what you disagreed with in the first place. We are talking about someone walking in a room for 20 minutes, dialing a curve and walking away. You may have the D3, it wouldn't give you a known result. A multiplexer helps, but the basic physics behind stands. Size of the room = reverberation time. Two identical rooms, one very dead and one very lively, won't work with the same X-Curve - hence the need of reference material and the need of a proper engineer.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-04-2014, 06:32 PM:

Well of course one always runs some known familiar material after he is done to verify the system and make minor tweeks... no matter what. I used to carry a couple reels of film, now I carry a couple hard drives. There is going to be some minor differences for sure but I always find myself making just small adjustments. And the fact stands that the R-x analyzer is going to give you something that's very close to the x-curve in a given room where a standard multiplexer analyzer isn't. That's the main reason this analyzer series even exists in the first place! You seem to ignore that the R-x series does take the room into account through spatial averaging in it's processing. This eliminates for the most part the sound only being good where you measured it from.

I can't think of any overly live room today that I service. In fact I likely wouldn't service a room that is so far out of spec unless the owner would want to make some attempt to bring reverb decay time into a reasonable range. It isn't that difficult to do unless it's a really huge room. If he can't afford to do that he is probably a shoestring operation who likely shouldn't even be in business in the first place. If you have rooms like this I feel for you...

The only exception to this might be very old Landmark Status theaters where you can not modify anything... at least they will try to make you think that. Landmark status generally only covers the exterior of a building. I have done work in many movie palaces that did proper acoustical treatment in a very tasteful way.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-05-2014, 03:29 AM:

I disagree with that Mark.
The D2 does a good job in averaging the response from the microphones but the difference between rooms in terms of HF needed to achieve your target can be huge. Just look at the variable curves available on the D2. You will have to choose one and confirm it is correct. You cannot do that without listening (I appreciate you are not saying that a test is not required).
And again, it seems that in the US your customers are smarter; it seems that - particularly with Digital - you never have to deal with bare, lively rooms with speakers installed in them and no sign of acoustic treatment. Well, lucky you.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-05-2014, 10:52 AM:

Marco...

I'm not saying there aren't any live rooms here... It's just that to me in this day and age of high technology that is a sign of a sloppy theater operator or one that really doesn't care and there is usually little to no money in servicing locations. So why bother, and why risk my reputation just to make a few dollars? On the other hand if an owner is willing to do at least some work to his room to bring it into spec then fine... I'd be happy to work with him.

Mark