Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Best/worst Atmos mixes

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Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 05-07-2014, 03:32 AM:

Living in a country with no Atmos installations, I haven't experienced that many Atmos features with my own ears. I've heard some complaints, though, that a lot of them are actually quick-and-dirty remixes, based on the 7.1 mix with a few ceiling speaker effects thrown in... Would you agree or is that just FUD?

While we're there, let's list some of the best and worst Atmos mixes. Starting with the good ones, Brave and Gravity sounded pretty impressive to me. Care to share your opinions?

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-07-2014, 04:15 AM:

I haven't seen all Atmos releases in Atmos, so I can only judge the movies I have seen so far. I did see some of the movies I've seen in Atmos twice, in different formats.

For me Gravity was absolutely the best Atmos mix until now, but the 7.1 mix was also great. The worst Atmos mix for me was Thor: The Dark World, but that did have a lame 7.1 mix too.

Also underwhelming was the Atmos mix of The Hobbit, especially for such a big release. And The Hunger Games: Catching Fire also didn't really impress me. Although there was one scene in the latest Hunger Games movie that really put Atmos to good use. That was when it went dark during the actual games.

Although generally a lame movie, 300: Rise of an Empire had a very powerful Atmos mix.

Most of the Atmos mixes I've heard were somewhere between good and OK, but few were really outstanding. In my opinion, Atmos is great, but not all movies equally benefit from it, so I sometimes skip Atmos in favor of a "traditional" experience. Thor 2 definitely sounded like a Monday morning 5.1 mix with some occasional "Atmos gimmicks" thrown in.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 05-07-2014, 08:42 AM:

Which Hobbit movie are you referring to?

I didn't get a chance to see Desolation of Smaug in Atmos, but I did for An Unexpected Journey, and I thought that sound mix was pretty good. Most especially, the Riddles in the Dark scene with Bilbo and Gollum, where you could hear Gollum moving around in the dark, which gave you a "you are there" type of experience.

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 05-07-2014, 03:08 PM:

I'll rank the films I have seen in Atmos from best-sounding to worst-sounding, just to give you an idea.

1. Gravity (mix grade A+)
2. Pacific Rim (mix grade A)
3. Noah (mix grade A-)
4. Oz the Great and Powerful (mix grade A-)
5. A Good Day to Die Hard (mix grade D)

So, for me, Atmos is mostly positive although there is one dud being the first Atmos film I saw in the infamous ETX screen in AMC Tyson's Corner 16. Since Pacific Rim, I have made the extra mileage to Regal Kingstowne Stadium 16 in Alexandria to see films that were only showing in D-IMAX at Tyson's. It also became my favorite Atmos venue.

Regal is opening up a 10-screener with RPX at the Dulles Town Center mall. DTC is only a hop, skip and a jump away from my current location and possibly by the time it opens we would've moved, but still in Northern Virginia. I mention this because I wish with all my heart that Dolby can install Atmos in DTC, removing the need for a half-hour or so drive.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 05-07-2014, 03:21 PM:

Brave was an Atmos movie? Would've loved to see that.

My favorite mixes were Gravity and Cap America: Winter Soldier

Hobbit 2 was decent, Spiderman 2 could've been better

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-07-2014, 04:58 PM:

quote: Scott Jentsch
Which Hobbit movie are you referring to?

The Desolation of Smaug, I actually forgot the first one had Dolby Atmos too.

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 05-07-2014, 05:23 PM:

Captain America gets an A+

300: Rise of Empire gets a solid F.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-07-2014, 06:08 PM:

quote: Ron Lacheur
300: Rise of Empire gets a solid F.

Just out of curiosity, what was your problem with this mix?

Posted by Ron Lacheur (Member # 1126) on 05-08-2014, 12:38 AM:

Wayyy to much music coming from the Atmos and surrounds in general, takes you right out of it.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-08-2014, 02:18 AM:

Ya Buck Brave was the first movie to come out in Atmos. I was at the Atmos grand opening at the AMC Barrywoods in KC the opening weekend for Brave. I really enjoyed the mix. Dolby reps were there too and came into the theater before the show and talked about Atmos a bit and what to expect and answered questions in the lobby afterwards. They also handed out posters and had questionaires on how you liked the Atmos experience.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-08-2014, 04:08 AM:

quote: Ron Lacheur
Wayyy to much music coming from the Atmos and surrounds in general, takes you right out of it.

It's a matter of taste, but I actually liked the fact that they didn't ignore the surrounds for their musical score. It's not like music is something that occurs naturally anyway [Wink]

. So, for me, music doesn't need to be limited to front left and front right.

What took me right out of it was the movie itself.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 05-10-2014, 02:01 PM:

Jarod, that's awesome! That would've been really cool.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 05-12-2014, 11:54 AM:

Gravity was absolutely the best by a wide margin. A very dynamic mix, which ranged from in your face loud to whisper quiet. By far the best use of the pan through surround array. At one point while Clooney is in orbit, he circles the whole auditorium, touching every surround speaker.

Other stand out Atmos mixes are Brave, Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, and Live Free or Die Hard.

The most underwhelming was Oz The Great and Powerful which did not sound any different than a normal 7.1 mix.

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 05-12-2014, 12:30 PM:

Star Wars had a great Atmos mix. I remember seeing it opening day here May 25 1977, in 70mm too. I remember it very well. I couldn't believe they had Atmos for this one, but it's true. I was there.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 05-17-2014, 01:38 PM:

Erthquake's Atmos mix was so intense, it shook down masonry work off the ceiling!

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-20-2014, 05:37 PM:

quote: Aaron Garman
Star Wars had a great Atmos mix. I remember seeing it opening day here May 25 1977, in 70mm too. I remember it very well. I couldn't believe they had Atmos for this one, but it's true. I was there.

I felt a great disturbance in the Atmosphere, as if millions of speakers suddenly blew out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-20-2014, 06:08 PM:

MDA?

- Carsten

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-20-2014, 10:28 PM:

I've been about as big a DTS fan as anybody, but I think this whole "Open MDA" thing has done nothing more than the completely stall adoption and installation of next gen surround sound formats.

The Open MDA thing might end up being the thing that makes the less expensive, less next-gen Auro 11.1 format become the "next gen" standard rather than Atmos. Cinemark is installing a fuck-ton of those Auro 11.1 systems. Meanwhile Dolby Atmos installations in North America have seemed to hit a freaking brick wall. I've hardly seen anything new at all happening in the mainland 48 states over the past few months. Perhaps a couple new screens around Kansas City and that's about it. Just what the hell is going on, Dolby? Lots of Atmos installs in China? What gives?

Cinemark has well over 100 of those "XD" screens and they seem very intent on putting Auro 11.1 on every one of those screens even if they can't manage to mention or outright refuse to mention Auro in the advertising to make people like me give any hint of giving the first shit about it. I really don't know what the hell that company is doing. Are they on Auro's side? Or are they secretly working on the behalf of Dolby is some strange, fetish kind of way? I don't know. They're just going to put Auro 11.1 on every "XD" screen and then not say anything at all to the public about it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Install the sound systems yet give movie studios no fucking reason at all to mix in Auro in the first place. Morons.
[Roll Eyes]

Meanwhile DTS' Open MDA format is little more than progress stalling vaporware. It's not like Dolby doesn't deserve some of this treatment. Dolby pulled the same crap back in 1990 when Cinema Digital Sound was trying to gain a foothold in the cinema product market. Uh, yeah, we'll have our 5.1 surround format ready to go to market (in another 18 months). So maybe Dolby is getting a little, long overdue dose of its own medicine.

The sad thing is there appears to be virtually NOTHING in DTS' Open MDA format that is a step above Dolby Atmos in terms of audio technology. And that's really where I kind of have to lean in Dolby's favor. They were there first. They were already presenting an object & bed based sound format featuring lossless audio objects and beds. How is DTS going to improve upon that? I worry all DTS' efforts will do is water down things and make "immersive audio" hardly any better than plain 5.1/7/1 audio.

The compromises I'm afraid that will happen will just end up making me not give the first shit about movie theaters anymore. Film is pretty much dead. It's turning into TV in public. Various things have turned into price gouging scams. So next-gen audio would get lumped into and ultimately get done shitty, cheaper, compromised and not right. I am very pessimistic about the direction of things in movie sound right now.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-21-2014, 02:54 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Meanwhile DTS' Open MDA format is little more than progress stalling vaporware.

I give you the vaporware argument, because for an open format that's supposed to be finished, it is hard to find any kind of specifications...

But, it's not like the Atmos format is in any way open, so at least for me it is totally impossible to compare both formats and form even a somewhat substantiated opinion about this.

Following their own published documents, Atmos is a combination of traditional "bed audio", supporting traditional 7.1 channels plus a separate overhead channel, and "audio objects", which can be panned at will in 3D space. Those audio objects can either be mono or stereo PCM "objects", additionally, they contain panning data over a timeline.

What I've read about "MDA" is that it will do roughly the same, so what exactly is the problem with MDA just yet?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-21-2014, 02:31 PM:

There's a number of problems with Open MDA.

First, it doesn't appear OpenMDA will be any better than Dolby Atmos. If there are any differences I'm concerned they'll be in the form of design compromises to make OpenMDA-based products cheaper.

How many simultaneous objects will OpenMDA support? How many speaker outputs will it support? We at least know those numbers when it comes to Atmos (128 objects maximum, 6 surround array beds, up to 64 speaker outputs). Will OpenMDA copy the speaker layout used by Atmos or Auro? Or will OpenMDA do something different or even let theater operators stick speakers wherever they want? Will OpenMDA support 5 stage channels like Atmos? Auro doesn't support a five up front scheme. Will OpenMDA support surround sub-bass enclosures and timbre matching between stage & surround like Atmos? What kinds of minimum quality requirements will OpenMDA have regarding amplifiers and surround speakers? Atmos makes some tougher demands in that area.

There is a lot of questions for the folks behind OpenMDA to answer. Perhaps the biggest question is will OpenMDA have some clear, minimum standards for various manufacturers to follow in creating OpenMDA-based hardware and minimum standards for OpenMDA-based sound systems? I really have to wonder about that one when there is talk of companies coming out with processors that play OpenMDA content, but "pre-render" it into conventional channel based form and output no more than 16 channels worth of discrete content.

OpenMDA could be all over the map with what equipment manufacturers and theater operators do with it. There is some risk OpenMDA could end up being hardly any better than Auro or even conventional 7.1 audio for that matter. That could be a bad thing especially when premium surcharges are being tacked onto the ticket price.

Making a technology "open" doesn't always work out so great. The Android phone platform is kind of a mess since Google lets other handset makers do whatever they want with the OS; you end up having to buy a Google Nexus phone if you want OS updates in any kind of timely manner. The open source community isn't doing squat to loosen Adobe's ever tightening grip on the graphics software industry. Lots of open source projects stall for years because of all kinds of disagreements that wouldn't happen in a commercial-driven effort. I really don't see much point of open source within a very specific industry like commercial movie theater sound.

The only benefit I can see in an effort like OpenMDA is perhaps in audio editing and mixing software/hardware systems. Dolby Atmos already makes it possible to create Atmos mixes and then derive 5.1 and 7.1 mixes from the Atmos mix. But you can't author an Auro 11.1 mix from within Dolby Atmos' software and vice versa. It would be nice if a sound designer could simply create a 3D object based sound mix in ProTools and then export his mix in various formats. Unfortunately the speaker layouts & system capabilities between Atmos & Auro are very different. That one mix won't sound remotely the same between either system. OpenMDA may add more differences. And the rumored IMAX next-gen sound system may add more differences on top of that. All those differences between systems may yield unexpected, undesirable results in playback.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Following their own published documents, Atmos is a combination of traditional "bed audio", supporting traditional 7.1 channels plus a separate overhead channel, and "audio objects", which can be panned at will in 3D space. Those audio objects can either be mono or stereo PCM "objects", additionally, they contain panning data over a timeline.

That description of Atmos isn't quite accurate. The base of it is more like 9.1, 9.3 or 11.3 with the audio objects placed on top of that. Atmos supports bed-based audio elements on six surround arrays, four on the side & back walls and two on the ceiling. As many as 128 audio objects can be played simultaneously, each object with its own panning/positional data. The system can have one sub bass channel, but the addition of two sub bass surround channels is recommended for timbre matching between the stage and surround field. The stage can support 3 or 5 speaker towers behind the screen. 5 is recommended for large screens.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-21-2014, 04:27 PM:

The best:

Gravity
Oblivion
Oz: The Great and Powerful
Man of Steel
Pacific Rim
300: Rise of an Empire
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey
Godzilla

average:

Amazing Spider Man 2
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug
Wolverine 2
Noah

bad:

Good Day to Die Hard
Iron Man 3

quote: Connor Wilson
I'll rank the films I have seen in Atmos from best-sounding to worst-sounding, just to give you an idea.

1. Gravity (mix grade A+)
2. Pacific Rim (mix grade A)
3. Noah (mix grade A-)
4. Oz the Great and Powerful (mix grade A-)
5. A Good Day to Die Hard (mix grade D)

So, for me, Atmos is mostly positive although there is one dud being the first Atmos film I saw in the infamous ETX screen in AMC Tyson's Corner 16. Since Pacific Rim, I have made the extra mileage to Regal Kingstowne Stadium 16 in Alexandria to see films that were only showing in D-IMAX at Tyson's. It also became my favorite Atmos venue.

Regal is opening up a 10-screener with RPX at the Dulles Town Center mall. DTC is only a hop, skip and a jump away from my current location and possibly by the time it opens we would've moved, but still in Northern Virginia. I mention this because I wish with all my heart that Dolby can install Atmos in DTC, removing the need for a half-hour or so drive.

I thought 'Noah's mix was pretty average - it really didn't have any 'wow' moments for me. As for Atmos in and around in the DC metro area - I continually berate Regal on their facebook page in hopes that their new RPX' (specifically Dulles) systems are Atmos equipped - it doesn't make sense to create a new theater from scratch and NOT include an Atmos system ... none! There's hope that the new Arclight (Bethesda) might have an Atmos system - I've also been stalking Arclight and posting requests that a system is paramount in being a serious competitor to Tysons.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-21-2014, 05:13 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
How many simultaneous objects will OpenMDA support? How many speaker outputs will it support? We at least know those numbers when it comes to Atmos (128 objects maximum, 6 surround array beds, up to 64 speaker outputs). Will OpenMDA copy the speaker layout used by Atmos or Auro? Or will OpenMDA do something different or even let theater operators stick speakers wherever they want? Will OpenMDA support 5 stage channels like Atmos? Auro doesn't support a five up front scheme. Will OpenMDA support surround sub-bass enclosures and timbre matching between stage & surround like Atmos? What kinds of minimum quality requirements will OpenMDA have regarding amplifiers and surround speakers? Atmos makes some tougher demands in that area.

Isn't this "OpenMDA" standard supposed to be an audio *format*? Just like Dolby AC-3? Minimum quality requirements should not be part of an audio format specification. The MP3 specs also don't contain minimum specs for your amps, that's another matter entirely.

A maximum number of objects make sense, both to cap bitrates and to set a limit on decoding complexity, but this can be a moving target for future upgrades. The maximum number of speaker outputs should NOT be part of the audio format. The number is 64 for Atmos right now, because that's probably the max the CP-850 can handle. There is no reason why a future Atmos-capable decoder couldn't handle 256 output channels for example.

In a perfect world, Object Based layouts will not use "beds", but it would rely purely on objects. I also see no use for a sub bass channel, this should be handled by an advanced form of bass management. Even if it's far less important for bass channels, but why would you want to throw away your localization information for those channels? If somebody wants to put a big sub-woofer beneath every speaker, why shouldn't he be capable in doing so?

In that perfect world, there would not be a hard limit in front channels or a fixed speaker layout. There should only be recommended speaker layouts and best practices, but the format should NOT be the limiting factor. A lot like a vector version of a drawing: The limiting factor should be the resolution of your display or your printer, not the graphics contained in the files themselves.

quote: Bobby Henderson
That description of Atmos isn't quite accurate. The base of it is more like 9.1, 9.3 or 11.3 with the audio objects placed on top of that. Atmos supports bed-based audio elements on six surround arrays, four on the side & back walls and two on the ceiling. As many as 128 audio objects can be played simultaneously, each object with its own panning/positional data.

It is a simplification, but I took that from one of their own documents. I didn't know the exact number of supported sound beds, but they specifically mention the standard 7.1 layout.

Still, it comes down to this:
- Traditional channel based audio, now called "sound beds", since there is no more 1-on-1 speaker array match during playback.
- Object based audio, based on PCM objects with panning metadata.

In my opinion, you should make those sound objects more flexible, so they can also function as "sound beds". An object should not just be described as a singleton in a 3D space, but as an area. That would eliminate the need for hard-defined sound beds entirely and as such also the requirement for a hard-defined speaker layout. Wouldn't it?

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-21-2014, 05:42 PM:

can someone comment on the Atmos mix of 'Captain America: The Winter Soldier' - I remember the 5.1 mix not wowing me, but the 7.1 mix I heard today, being better with occasional objects being placed directly behind the audience to excellent effect; however the overall mix being quite restrained at times, but when the action goes into full throttle really lets loose.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-21-2014, 08:56 PM:

oh I forgot to include 'Frozen' in my top Atmos mixes.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-21-2014, 10:59 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Isn't this "OpenMDA" standard supposed to be an audio *format*? Just like Dolby AC-3? Minimum quality requirements should not be part of an audio format specification. The MP3 specs also don't contain minimum specs for your amps, that's another matter entirely.

The problem is OpenMDA is being sold as an equivalent alternative to Dolby Atmos. To me it appears plenty of movie theater chains are taking a wait and see approach on what OpenMDA delivers rather than installing Dolby Atmos systems now. Others are spending less to install Auro 11.1 and hoping Hollywood increases title support for Auro someday.

While Dolby Atmos is known as being a sound format, it is unique enough to require sound systems be built specifically around it and for those sound systems to meet some minimum quality standards. If OpenMDA is going to be marketed as being just as good as Dolby Atmos then it better live up to the same standards as Atmos or OpenMDA will be a sham.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
In a perfect world, Object Based layouts will not use "beds", but it would rely purely on objects. I also see no use for a sub bass channel, this should be handled by an advanced form of bass management.

There's a couple problems with both of those points. Regarding "beds", some pieces of audio need to be played across all the speakers on one or more of the surround arrays. Beds are the easiest way to accomplish that. Sound designers can create a background layer of audio in those beds and layer objects on top of them. They can build more complex sound designs faster in that manner than going with objects alone. In a perfect world movie sound designers would have at least a few weeks to work on a project rather than doing everything in the last minute like they're doing today.

Regarding sub bass enclosures, they definitely have merit, particularly in the surround array. However, stadium seated auditoriums aren't very friendly to sub-bass surround speakers.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
It is a simplification, but I took that from one of their own documents. I didn't know the exact number of supported sound beds, but they specifically mention the standard 7.1 layout.

The 7.1 layout is only mentioned in terms of what the Dolby Atmos encoder can create for DCPs. 5.1 and 7.1 LPCM tracks can be derived directly from an Atmos mix and are packaged alongside the Atmos track in a DCP. Dolby Atmos isn't just some embellished version of 7.1 audio. It's a lot more complex than that. To me, it like they're taking something that more closely resembles a ProTools audio project layout and playing that in the movie theater.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 05-22-2014, 05:53 PM:

Has anyone seen the new Dolby Atmos tags that play after a trailer with the words "Coming Soon in Dolby Atmos"? What are your thoughts on it?

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 05-22-2014, 07:25 PM:

quote: Aaron Garman
Star Wars had a great Atmos mix. I remember seeing it opening day here May 25 1977, in 70mm too. I remember it very well. I couldn't believe they had Atmos for this one, but it's true. I was there.

You're confusing Dolby Atmos with "Atmost". Star Wars had "at most", 6 channels. Except for the fools talking in the audience. They contributed another 1400 channels (Loews Astor Plaza, NYC).

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-22-2014, 10:34 PM:

^ too bad there isn't a drum rim shot graemlin [Big Grin]

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-23-2014, 02:15 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
There's a couple problems with both of those points. Regarding "beds", some pieces of audio need to be played across all the speakers on one or more of the surround arrays. Beds are the easiest way to accomplish that. Sound designers can create a background layer of audio in those beds and layer objects on top of them. They can build more complex sound designs faster in that manner than going with objects alone. In a perfect world movie sound designers would have at least a few weeks to work on a project rather than doing everything in the last minute like they're doing today.

OK, but shouldn't this be solved in the toolchain and not in the format? Why can't those "beds" be just preset audio sources in your favorite mixing tool? IMHO, there is absolutely no need to have a support for hard-coded "beds" inside the audio format itself when the same result can be achieved with "audio objects".

Doing so will yet again limit your mix to some preferred/optimum speaker layout.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 05-23-2014, 02:51 AM:

Johnathan, Cap America is probably my #2 behind Gravity. It was pretty darn good.

Saw Godzilla in Atmos today, was pretty good but dear lord, they really need to reinforce..... pretty much everything/all the speakers.

EVERY deeper/bass filled moment(and that's half of this movie) from light to heavy had the entire damn drop ceiling/walls/screen rigging rattling and shaking. Was very, very distracting. As comical as it was, it really took the crisp punch of it away. Made it sound like one big 40' tall blown out subwoofer.

They had coke failstyles installed this week too.

The feature just didn't start. Ended up being 25 minutes late, but they handed out passes at the end so that was nice.

This all being the AMC Barrywoods 24 in KCMO

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-23-2014, 10:37 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The number is 64 for Atmos right now, because that's probably the max the CP-850 can handle.

The 64 channel limit probably has something to do with hardware processing limitations but I'm sure there was also a practical aspect.

If an installation uses all 5 screen channels plus the 3 LFE channels, that leaves 56 channels for surrounds. Looking at their charts in the specifications document, the wider the room the less side/top surrounds needed for a given length and the longer the room the less rear speakers are needed for a given width.

I can only guess that it is because the system wants speakers every x degrees and as the "circle" gets bigger around the reference position, the physical speakers are more spread out.

Because of these recommendations, I don't think there are any auditoriums with the dimensions that would require more than 56 surround channels. A 64' wide by 45' long room would require 16 speakers for each side and top channel which would exceed the system capacity but who would design an auditorium with that ratio?

A 65'x65' room (also odd for a perfect square to be designed) needs 11 channels per side and top surround so 44 total. But, that sized room would only need 8 rear surrounds. Add your 8 channels from front and LFE and you are only at 60 channels total.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-23-2014, 04:14 PM:

I say floor channels. + per seat addressable buttkickers.

- Carsten

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-23-2014, 06:45 PM:

Let's also add water squirters, ankle ticklers, back pokers and wind blowers like Disney has in some of their theaters. And don't forget "smellitizers."

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-24-2014, 02:54 AM:

Sounds great. Don't forget the motion chair and I would also add a rubber bat that hits you in the face, as the ultimate force feedback instrument. Together it will constitute an integral 10D experience!

Now you will not just see stuff crashing into other stuff in front of your eyes, you can LIVE it!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-24-2014, 07:07 AM:

I just want a good, and original movie.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-24-2014, 07:10 AM:

I want ButtMos...

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-24-2014, 07:23 AM:

quote: Lyle Romer
Because of these recommendations, I don't think there are any auditoriums with the dimensions that would require more than 56 surround channels. A 64' wide by 45' long room would require 16 speakers for each side and top channel which would exceed the system capacity but who would design an auditorium with that ratio?

If you limit the technology to just the panning technology that it is right now and also don't go beyond normal movie theaters, then those 64 channels will probably be sufficient.

But in a broader perspective, there are many auditoria and arenas that are far bigger than your average movie screening place. The technology could be useful there too.

Besides that, if you want to upgrade the system to a wavefront synthesis technology, which would probably be the next step in evolution, you will require a even higher speaker density, even in a normal sized auditorium.

quote: Steve Guttag
I just want a good, and original movie.

Now you're just sounding old and boring. [Wink]

But yeah, no great sound mix and no fancy pants sound system has ever fixed an otherwise terrible movie. But the other way around is entirely possible though...

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-24-2014, 01:36 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen

But yeah, no great sound mix and no fancy pants sound system has ever fixed an otherwise terrible movie. But the other way around is entirely possible though...

actually ... I beg to differ - 'Battle: Los Angeles' rocked like a mutha - the story, not so.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-24-2014, 04:31 PM:

I also liked the Atmos mix of "300: Rise of an Empire" (although not anybody agrees with me). Still, I wasn't pleased with the movie as a whole.

Same for "Battle: LA", while the mix, as far as I can remember, was good, it couldn't never have saved the movie as a whole for me. But you liked the mix so much, you actually put the movie on your "good" list?

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-24-2014, 04:39 PM:

Damn Buck that sucks to hear about the state of the Barrywoods Atmos theater. Sounds horrible. I came very close to going there last weekend when my wife and I were in KC for the weekend.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 05-26-2014, 01:56 AM:

Don't get me wrong, It won't keep me from going, but it is quite annoying.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-26-2014, 04:45 PM:

quote: Buck Wilson
Johnathan, Cap America is probably my #2 behind Gravity. It was pretty darn good.

Saw Godzilla in Atmos today, was pretty good but dear lord, they really need to reinforce..... pretty much everything/all the speakers.

EVERY deeper/bass filled moment(and that's half of this movie) from light to heavy had the entire damn drop ceiling/walls/screen rigging rattling and shaking. Was very, very distracting. As comical as it was, it really took the crisp punch of it away. Made it sound like one big 40' tall blown out subwoofer.

They had coke failstyles installed this week too.

The feature just didn't start. Ended up being 25 minutes late, but they handed out passes at the end so that was nice.

This all being the AMC Barrywoods 24 in KCMO

oh damn - don't tell me that - the one most recent film I had trouble trying to hear (i.e, missed) in Atmos.

the rattling/shaking of the speakers would have me both worried for my safety and sanity - if one of those overhead speakers fell - you'd be toast.

I remember the sound during Piranha (2010) on the 'XD' screen the bass during the underwater sequence, literally sounded like one of the ceiling braces had snapped - it scared the crap out of me.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-26-2014, 05:25 PM:

quote: Jonathan Goeldner
I remember the sound during Piranha (2010) on the 'XD' screen the bass during the underwater sequence, literally sounded like one of the ceiling braces had snapped - it scared the crap out of me.

But euhm, I suppose it wasn't a ceiling brace that supported a speaker? Because, there wasn't really a common sound system in 2010 that supported overhead speakers.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-26-2014, 05:28 PM:

actually the 'movie' sound effect, sounded like a support beam in the ceiling itself literally snapped - it was really THAT loud - it sounded truly horrific.

the slashing of the piranha embryo had made me jump nearly a foot out of my seat.

oh no, sorry I wasn't saying it was Atmos, didn't mean to imply that it was, but the speaker set up for the XD system at the Egyptian at that time was and is still impressive, regardless if the mix is 7.1, 5.1, or 11.1 (which it currently is). The tonality, power and sound imaging from the setup and specifically the speakers is damn impressive

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-26-2014, 05:31 PM:

Yeah, it became rather clear to me, that's also why I edited the post.

But yes, I agree with you, the surround mix of Piranha 3D was quite impressive, as was the 3D especially for such a campy movie [Wink]

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-26-2014, 05:45 PM:

Right on Buck. Hey where about do you sit when you see an Atmos movie at that theater for best sound? Times I went a set a few rows back from the middle section.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-26-2014, 05:57 PM:

There is no definite answer, because no two rooms are exactly the same. Obviously, your own preferences also count in...

But like in almost any movie theater, you should sit somewhere in the middle. That's almost always the sweet spot for practically all decently calibrated rooms. It doesn't really matter if the room has 5.1, 7.1, 11.1 or Atmos.

Atmos is supposed to increase the "sweet spot" and it does, but still, it's not using magic and fairy dust. So, the center is still the place to be.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-26-2014, 06:08 PM:

a tad above middle center and a row or two closer to the back also heightens the pinpointing of the rear soundfields as well.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
But yes, I agree with you, the surround mix of Piranha 3D was quite impressive, as was the 3D especially for such a campy movie

yeah, who knew that along with a great soundmix, you'd also get a cool 3D conversion and the requisite buckets of blood, guts and T&A

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-26-2014, 06:34 PM:

Well I was referring to the same room as him. The Atmos room. But yes each room is unique.

Yes indeed around halfway to 2/3 back and middle is about where I usually choose if I have a choice.

Cool I'm gunna hafta checkout Piranah on 3DBD. Store by me has it for $10 used may buy it.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 05-27-2014, 11:56 AM:

Yeah, center middle or a little behind. I won't buy a ticket otherwise. I find myself in H, I, and J rows mainly.

I had filled out a online survey and the GM has actually contacted me about the rattling and seems genuinely concerned about fixing it, so that's great.

I watched Xmen in there last night, it was great. There are a few of the professors thought scenes where I literally turned around to see who the hell was talking during the movie before I realized it was actually the movie itself! Haha.

Significantly less rattling with this mix, but still present. It just happened to be really really bad with Godzilla.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-27-2014, 02:05 PM:

^ well Godzilla IS fat (um, I mean big boned) so he would shake the house ... [Wink]

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 05-27-2014, 02:52 PM:

Good one Jonathon!

Cool Buck. Thats nice to hear they aren't brushing away the rattling issue and are listening to complaints. Great sign.

Last time I went to the Warren IMAX in Wichita the right surround was rattling very bad during loud surround content. It could have been the drop ceiling or something else but I emailed Warren Theaters and never heard back.

I seen X-Men DoFP this weekend and I thoroughly enjoyed it! Quicksilver was great and J Lawerence looked amazing as Raven/Mystique.

Excited to visit the Barrywoods again tho.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-30-2014, 08:32 AM:

AMC Tyson's did it again - I personally think they boost the volume on their ETX/Atmos screen just because they think: 'louder is better' Well, I saw 'X-Men: Days of Future Past' for the second time yesterday just to compare it to the 7.1 mix I had heard last Sunday - and, well, aside from the occasional use of plane flyovers using the overhead speakers - the 7.1 mix was considerably less bombastic and you could actually hear the sound cues and better delineation without all the action sound effects drowning out the other speakers.

[sigh - oh well]

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-31-2014, 12:47 AM:

quote: Jonathan Goeldner
the 7.1 mix was considerably less bombastic and you could actually hear the sound cues and better delineation without all the action sound effects drowning out the other speakers

I don't think this has anything to do with the mix. I think it is some horrible thinking at AMC that in the "ETX" auditoriums they need to crank the volume to jet engine levels. I've seen 2 movies in Atmos. I saw "A Good Day to Die Hard" at AMC Downtown Disney 24 in Atmos/ETX and it was horribly loud. I saw Godzilla at the Frank Delray Marketplace and it was played at a normal level. The normal level sounded great.

I know I'm comparing different movies and mixes but nothing could have sounded good as loud as the ETX screen was set up.

Posted by Michael Brown (Member # 890) on 06-18-2014, 07:50 AM:

Has anyone seen Jersey Boys in Dolby Atmos?

I might be going to see this as my first atmos mix next week.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-18-2014, 08:39 AM:

Jersey Boys will open in U.S. theaters Friday. Unfortunately it probably will not be playing on a lot of Atmos-equipped screens.

A lot of theater operators are placing the sequel Think Like A Man Too in their biggest screening rooms -which makes little sense to me. Personally, I have no desire to see that movie on my living room TV set much less pay first run theater prices (and a big screen premium price added) to see it. The movie wasn't screened in advance for critics. That's usually a good indicator the movie will be pretty bad.

With Think Like A Man Too occupying the lone Atmos-equipped house in many theaters, anyone wanting to see Jersey Boys in Dolby Atmos will probably have to visit a theater with Atmos in 2 or more auditoriums.

I was a little surprised Jersey Boys was recently announced as having a Dolby Atmos mix. I wouldn't expect the Clint Eastwood directed drama to have a big surround sound mix. Some movies previously released in Dolby Atmos have had decidedly conventional, conservative sounding mixes. I'm inclined to think this movie's mix might fall into that camp.

I guess I won't find out for myself. I'd have to drive at least 200 miles to Dallas to see Jersey Boys in Dolby Atmos (at LOOK Cinemas); it's the nearest theater to me featuring Atmos in at least 2 auditoriums. Think Like A Man Too is showing tell tale signs of being a bad movie. But Jersey Boys' current 57% score at Rotten Tomatoes doesn't bode well either.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 06-18-2014, 07:04 PM:

Good news for San Francisco 'Jersey Boys' opens this Friday on the XD screen and in Dolby Atmos at Century 9 on Market ST in downtown SF. This cinema has 9 screens and 2 are XD. Both screens are a different size. Hope It plays in the more huge curved XD screen on the cinema on the left side of the lobby. After they put in the first and better XD screen they put another in across the lobby but It is not as curved or big but they still call it XD. Turn up the system and let the classic 4 Seasons sing all over the place.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-18-2014, 11:13 PM:

I'm wondering how many Cinemark locations have multiple XD screens. I knew that 9-plex in downtown San Francisco had 2 XD houses. I guess the one across the bay in Fremont (Century at Pacific Commons) has 2 XD houses as well. Apparently that one has Atmos in one XD house and Auro 11.1 in the other. One of the Cinemark locations in Plano, TX (Cinemark West Plano & XD) also has Atmos and Auro equipped screens.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 06-19-2014, 09:37 AM:

Bobby It's so strange that Cinemark/Century in SF will put two XD screens in the same theatre multiplex same size house and make one very small XD screen and not that curved like the other first installation. Like they ran out of money and put in a cheap copy to the huge nice original Cinerama type XD screen. They even had to move the exit doors to put in the new screen but It is not worth the extra $$ to see a movie in this small XD screen house. The new smaller one does have Dolby Atmos. We only have 3 theatres in SF with this new Dolby sound system at this time, and we are the home town of Dolby. None of the theatres advertise this sound system and old AMC won't run ads in the SF Chronicle and around the USA. They have 2 Dolby Atmos houses in SF. So many tourists come to SF and want to see a film while in town and they have no idea that AMC has 2 theatres, they go to Century/Cinemark to see a movie that does run ads in the paper. AMC sits empty during the week. I wrote AMC about this no advertising newspaper policy and they say most people go on line to see the times. Most older people and tourists I know like to read in a paper what is playing and the times and locations. At least Century does advertise at least on line about what theatre has a movie in Dolby Atmos. Now lets see when the new Barco 11.1 system will come into SF and will they advertise It to the public. My friend Tim League of Draft House will be installing the Dolby Atmos system in his remodel of the New Mission Theatre in SF in the large downstairs cinema. I have been trying to get him to put in a large D-150 type curved screen in the larger downstairs house. The New Mission remodel will give the Castro Theatre some competition in San Francisco. With 35mm 70mm and the latest digital projectors I can tell you The Mission won't be closed every Mon/Tues like the Castro Theatre is now.

Posted by Connor Wilson (Member # 6088) on 06-19-2014, 10:15 AM:

It looks like Jersey Boys will be playing in Atmos on only a handful of theaters.

Posted by Mark Lensenmayer (Member # 134) on 06-19-2014, 01:34 PM:

One correction to that ATMOS list:

JERSEY BOYS will be playing 2 shows daily at the Marcus Ultrascreen in Columbus, OH with ATMOS.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 06-19-2014, 02:50 PM:

The search also missed the showtimes for Jersey Boys in Dolby Atmos at LOOK Cinemas' in Addison, TX.

Posted by Terry Monohan (Member # 8285) on 06-20-2014, 07:44 PM:

Saw the film Jersey today 12:30 PM Cinemark 9 SF. Great film so so sound. Only heard the ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers used 1 time only during the organ church section. The Dolby logo was the only thing that used the 360 effect. Split surround was good, not so much bass used in the movie. The whole movie was filmed in a very weak color almost pastel B&W look to it. They wanted to create I guess the look of the 50's/60's. Did not need to be rated R. Great stereo music all throughout. Check It out on a big wide screen with a good stereo system.

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 06-23-2014, 11:59 AM:

We rely on the theaters to supply that information. Unfortunately, not all theaters provide it.

Some theaters make it a priority, others seemingly want to keep their multi-thousand dollar investments a secret.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-23-2014, 03:31 PM:

I've always proclaimed our improvements from the rooftops, but when we went to digital I didn't really say much so as to not infuriate any "film purists" who happened to be in the area. It's the only big improvement we've made that I didn't do a big promotional splash about it.

I used to always put "Dolby Digital Sound" in our newspaper ads but only recently took it out due to making the ad smaller. (Hardly anybody sees the newspaper ads; I just run them to maintain a good relationship with the paper...hence they're always ready to run a story when we have a special event or something to announce.) But we do run the Dolby logo in front of each and every show, even kiddie matinees.

If we had Atmos here I'd have a big sign on the front door and it would be in all our ads.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-23-2014, 07:58 PM:

Have you run Dolby's short called "Silent" ?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-23-2014, 08:37 PM:

No, is it on DCP anywhere?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-24-2014, 05:57 AM:

Oh yeah...in 5.1, 7.1 and Atmos...Flat and Scope versions, 2K and 4K (though I've had issues with one of the 4k versions (I think it was the 7.1 Scope).

Unfortunately, they didn't put them in the normal "Dolby Customer" site. Try this link:

https://dolby.app.box.com/s/hbka9a1s1rx3eygbc6xw/1/1679842354

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-04-2014, 09:35 AM:

Jersey Boys ran at Harkins Southlake in Atmos. They've been very good about making sure Atmos new releases play in the big house whenever possible. West Plano XD has not been good about this.

Bobby, West Plano XD has Auro and Atmos in the same house!

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 07-06-2014, 03:49 PM:

'Transformers: Age of Extinction' sounded great in Atmos - the use of the overhead speakers was the most impressive aspect of the mix - notably during the end, when everything is literally falling out of the sky.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 01-10-2015, 04:26 PM:

Haven't seen too many films in Atmos, but Tak3n (the movie where nobody actually gets taken) has to be one of the worst mixes (Atmos or not) I have ever heard (assuming the projectionist did his job and actually enabled Atmos).

For whatever reason, the sound system sounded like it was in midnight mode as everything felt muted. During the gun battles there was very little surround activity and there was one very muffled blah of sound that came from the roof during a car explosion [Moon]

Overall the movie was good and I would welcome a fourth installment. Sometimes the critics are wrong.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 01-10-2015, 04:40 PM:

Theater info would be appreciated for a specific review like that. It's entirely possible there is something legitimately wrong.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 01-10-2015, 05:39 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
assuming the projectionist did his job and actually enabled Atmos

What would make you assume that there was a projectionist on site? Multiplex are run by monkeys and Atmos has the same meaning as supercalifragilisticexpialidocious for them.
Whether your movie ran in Atmos or in 5.1 or 7.1 is likely to be a result of a lucky coincidence in terms of received CPL and KDM.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-12-2015, 02:02 AM:

I absolutely loved Godzilla in Atmos at the TCL Chinese theater in Hollywood CA. I didn't care for the IMAX sound presentation. Lately I've been having sound issues with IMAX which is in another post of mine. Anyhow, it was theater one in their six screen theater next door to IMAX. It was such an aggressive mix that it was frightening at times! And I say "frightening" in a good way. The low frequencies felt like they were pulverizing the theater and yet there was absolutely no distortion whatsoever! This may be the best sounding Atmos theater I've been to.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-16-2015, 02:52 AM:

The Atmos mix of Godzilla surely was one of the better Atmos mixes around. My favorite remains Gravity.

Unfortunately, Birdman didn't have an Atmos mix, but a very strong 7.1 mix. I would have loved to see this in Atmos. And since it won so many Oscars, it eventually even got some limited opportunities to be played in a few "Atmos enabled" theaters.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 05-23-2015, 03:22 AM:

Hi Marcel,

I agree Gravity was one of the best Atmos mixes I've heard. I loved how they spread the score around the room. Just brilliant! And I also agree about Birdman, it had a surprisingly good 7.1 mix

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 05-23-2015, 11:00 AM:

I'm pretty sure 'Birdman' was only 5.1 - but it's an excellent mix nonetheless.

and a little shout out to 'Ex Machina' for having one of the best 5.1 I've heard ... well, since 'Birdman'

I thought the sound levels in the Atmos version of 'Godzilla' were too loud, some moments worked loud, but the music really got buried, the bluray revealed (when played back at home theater level) it to wonderful effect.