Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DOLBY DSS200 WITH TWO BARCO 23B MACHINES

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Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-11-2014, 02:41 PM:

I need help configuring our Dolby DSS200 to recognize the 2 Barco 23B machines in our single screen house. When we went digital 2 years ago, I decided to install an identical pair of DP4K-23B machines so that we always have a backup in the booth.

Until now, I have had both machines using the same IP address (192.168.1.133); this works fine since we never have powered up both at the same time. Also, the dual coax cables are connected to both machines from the server.

Looking through the Dolby 'config' menu, I found that they have listed a second machine address as: 192.168.1.137 (projector 2).
I reprogrammed the right machine with this address and with both on, the Barco Communicator software sees both machines, but the Dolby server still only 'sees' the original (...133) machine. We are not setup for 3D and probably will not be in the future; the sole reason for a second machine was for backup.

Also when I checked the 'system' tab on the server, it shows the projector address as: 192.168.241.3:61410.

Any help from you experts in the field would be very much appreciated!!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-11-2014, 02:43 PM:

Doesn't the Dolby require a special license to work with the second projector? I know GDC does as they are assuming stacked 3-D.

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-11-2014, 02:49 PM:

Mark,
As far as I know, the setup we have has worked without any additional license. There was no mention in any of the documentation from Dolby that a special license was needed to use 2 machines on a single DSS200. Also, the KDM's for our features work equally well on either machine. I plan on calling Dolby in the morning if no one on FT has the answer to this problem.
Thanks for your response!

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-11-2014, 04:01 PM:

You cannot have two devices on the same IP on a network. Use the IPs Dolby suggest.

I believe the Dolby only controls/talk to the second machine by network, that could be why it's always worked.

Does the system work, can you show film? If the issue is you cannot control the second projector, I believe that it is how it's supposed to work.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-11-2014, 04:37 PM:

Fred - since you used the second machine solely as a backup, there was no need to have a second IP adress. But what are you trying to accomplish now, why do you want to change things at all if you're not going 3D?

BTW - wow, I'm puzzled someone actually buys into an expensive second 4k JUST for backup purposes...

Default config for a dual-projector 3D setup is 192.168.1.133 and 192.168.1.137.
The mediablock setup has an option for dual projector setup - again, for dual 3D operation.

You say this is two years old and mention a DSS200 and HD-SDI cables. That means, you were never actually able to show 4k content with this setup? No IMB?

Again, what are you trying to do different now against the last two years, what are you trying to accomplish? 2D stacking for doubled brightness?

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-11-2014, 06:27 PM:

Wait... I assumed he wanted to run a dual projector show!

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-11-2014, 06:32 PM:

Carsten,
What I am trying to do is being able to pick which machine the server 'sees'. With having both machines using the same IP address (I Know only one can be on at a time,)the problem now is that when I switch machines, the server downloads 512 logs from the incoming projector; as opposed to 6 when I use the same machine the next day. The time it takes to down load 512 logs is 4 to 5 minutes. Short of alternating machines each day, I was hoping that if the server recognized the fact that there were two machines on line, it would not ask for the log down loads (512) as it does now. I try to run each machine for about 3 to 4 weeks before switching to the other. In an emergency (which has happened 3 or 4 times) it takes 4 to 5 minutes to re-start with the other machine (log down load issue). We only run 10 shows per week; therefore the projector and server are shut down each evening.
PS: I have read the thread on leaving the server on 24/7 versus off... let's leave that issue on the other thread...
Thanks!!!

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-11-2014, 06:56 PM:

I doubt your configuration is in anyway supported with the DSS200. In anyway, I would never use conflicting IPs in the same broadcast domain, even for standby equipment.

But, maybe I'm missing something here...

You bought not one, but two expensive 4K machines, yet you got just one server, which only is capable of playing 2K content. So, in your plan, the projector may fail, but the server cannot.

Why didn't you invest in a suitable IMB per projector and a central (maybe even redundant) storage solution if this redundancy is key to you?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-11-2014, 07:18 PM:

I definitely cannot answer this question as I have never run the projector in the configuration you described. I had one site with dual projectors for redundancy as well as one for 3D and one for 2D (had different lamps loaded). We ended up putting the server in "3D" mode for all shows so both projectors were being fed as needed. We also had an HDSDI router in there too. They were series 1 machines so no Enigma log issue either.

This same facility has since upgraded and now has two servers and two projectors...thus 100% redundancy and still one projector optimized for 2D and one for 3D but either may back up the other.

I agree with the concept that you should buy another server and if these are 4K projectors, obtain IMBs so you get the full 4K resolution out of them.

Other than that, go ahead and call Dolby and see what they have to say.

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-11-2014, 09:11 PM:

Marcel,
Thank you for your input! Let me answer your very good questions... First, the DSS200 seems to only 'see' the IP address...133 and not the ...137. With 26 months worth of experience with this setup, I have had issues at 4 different times with the projector not starting at show time. Rather than try and trouble shoot the issues, I have chosen to power down the machine in question and power up the other machine. In every case, the show was on the screen within ten to twelve minutes. Later I determined the issue with the first machine and resumed normal operation on the next day. The time delay was due to the server down loading 512 logs from the incoming projector. This only occurs when the incoming machine has not been used for over a week.
Your next point, well taken; is why have two 4K machines without an IMB. First, even with the content being only 2k, the output of the TI light engine is still 4K (duplicate pixels). The IMB for this machine lists for over $7,000. and with very few films released in 4K, I plan on waiting to purchase the IMB.

I have worked with the Dolby folks since 1977. I was the first in Virginia to install a CP100 (serial #10) for the film: A STAR IS BORN here in Portsmouth, VA when the film ran first run. I also trained at their San Francisco head quarters at three different occasions for their audio processors over the last 30 years. What I found and loved was there dedication to the art of sound processing and the high level of quality that went into the design and manufacture of their hardware. Sure, any piece of equipment can and will fail at some point, but my experience with Dolby is that their hardware is very well built and the weak link will be the hard drives (which I have two spares installed in the bays).

Steve,
Thank you as well for your comments. At over $12,000. for the server, I am willing to take my chances and 'ride it out' with a single DSS200. I would appreciate comments from the FT community on what problems have occurred with the DSS200's that have been in service over the last few years. Maybe I can be better prepared if and when disaster strikes from the knowledge gained from the many of you who have had more experience than I with this digital hardware!!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-12-2014, 12:25 AM:

I have two, DSS200's on two 4K-32B units, but use the Dolby Cat. No. 745 Integrated Media Block units in the projectors since we do 4K content on these screens when needed.

Absolutely wonderful units to work with these BARCOS.

Plus, I also have ATMOS in these two houses with usage of the CP850 processor.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2014, 01:04 AM:

Fred, whoever is quoting you $12k for a server is taking advantage of you. Contact us and we will quote you a fair price.

Regardless, the only way to make the system behave the way you want it to is to setup both projectors as if you were planning on running dual 3D...but just only play 2D content as you do now. You will need to setup the second projector's IP in the config script to do this.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 05-12-2014, 02:57 AM:

Those $12K for a DSS200 sound more like Dolby list price, nobody should be paying that [Wink]

.

Besides some "hidden" feature only Dolby can tell you about, I guess the way Brad and Steve put it, using the server in dual-projector 3D mode for all content, will most probably work as expected. But it will probably also fill your logs with warnings and errors. If that's something you can live with, then you're fine.

quote: Fred Schoenfeld
Your next point, well taken; is why have two 4K machines without an IMB. First, even with the content being only 2k, the output of the TI light engine is still 4K (duplicate pixels). The IMB for this machine lists for over $7,000. and with very few films released in 4K, I plan on waiting to purchase the IMB.

It helps to get rid of the screen door effect on large screens, but the 2K projectors usually have a better contrast ratio. So, if you do have a very large screen or you're planning to upgrade in the near future, it would make sense.

It still feels a bit like a waste, two of those 4K units, and no 4K content [Wink]

.

Those 4K releases will become much more common in a rather short time frame. The home consumer market is slowly moving to 4K and this "remastered in 4K" bullcrap will not be sufficient to fill the market with. Especially the early adopters know all to well that "remastered in 4K" is not like being shot and produced in 4K. So, new 4K content is needed to sell those new gadgets and theatrical releases will obviously benefit from that too.

quote: Fred Schoenfeld
Sure, any piece of equipment can and will fail at some point, but my experience with Dolby is that their hardware is very well built and the weak link will be the hard drives (which I have two spares installed in the bays).

Not to discredit Dolby in any way, but their server hardware is primarily just that: Server hardware. They have proven to be quite reliable and the Supermicro-OEM hardware they're using is has some proven reliability in many other fields, but in essence it's just a bunch of standard PC parts with a few extras thrown in. Hard disks will eventually fail, but that's part of the design of a RAID system. It's always good to have at least one spare, as they're not that expensive anyway.

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-12-2014, 06:51 AM:

Thanks to Monte, Brad & Marcel for your replies! It is good to know we have such a site as FT to help one another in this 'DIGITAL AGE'!! [Wink]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-12-2014, 01:47 PM:

Last time I enquired Dolby did not support 2 projectors on IMBs, the only way to run 2 projectors was as Steve described. BTW HD/SDI distro works fine on Series 2 [Wink]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2014, 02:08 PM:

quote: Fred Schoenfeld
the weak link will be the hard drives (which I have two spares installed in the bays).

Fred, not to burst your bubble, but that's exactly what you DON'T want to do. Those extra 4 bays are spinning the drives, wearing them down just like the main 4 bays. You don't want the drives physically installed at all.

Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 05-12-2014, 03:01 PM:

If it is only a backup why not pick up a used DSS200?

Allegedly, 4K micro-mirrors don't tilt as far as those on 2K DMDs which is why the contrast is less. If you have light to burn, you can do something about it with irised lenses.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-12-2014, 03:32 PM:

I think it's a strange choice to have a backup projector, but not a backup server... "because of the cost." Buying 2 projectors is not what I'd consider a budget-conscious decision.

Whose idea was this??

With all due respect to Dolby's track record in audio, it does not automatically follow that their video products won't fail. (Does it even guarantee that their audio products won't fail?)

And on what basis was it determined that there would be regular, catastrophic failures caused by the projectors? Could the failures be due to improper configuration?

FWIW, my Dolby server (DSS200) takes much longer to reboot than my projector (Barco DP2K-32B) -- 6 minutes versus about 3 minutes. Even with one server and projector, a down-time of 10-12min would seem super-long.

Even so, I can't say it would justify the expense of a 2nd projector.

A full duplicate backup (server & projector) MIGHT make sense, but ONLY IF it meant it would be possible to be on-screen within a minute or so. Otherwise, just troubleshoot/reboot or whatever.

Speaking of troubleshooting -- has anyone ever taken the time to figure out why the projector in question "won't start at show time" ? Why not just fix that issue? (Again, could it be due to whacky configuration?)

For a "mission critical" screening, if an instant-switch would be possible by having the backup show actually running in tandem with the main program. But how often is that needed? Would it justify PURCHASING a duplicate system? I'd have to question that.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-12-2014, 04:34 PM:

They wouldn't give you keys for the duplicate server anyway. You're looking at a solid 20 minutes to get that authorized best case senario.

If he sets it up the way I suggested, he could switch over in less than a minute.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 05-12-2014, 04:58 PM:

Manny, here we do just occasionally for festivals, premieres etc. Two complete systems, one running a minute behind the other. All that need be done to 'change over' is close one doswer, open the other and swap the audio. Also run with a spare processor.KDMs are not an issue in these circumstances.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-12-2014, 08:30 PM:

In our 2-projector system...both keys are issued with the movie. They are always studio screens and 1-offs so there is no 2nd chance. Both servers/projectors are running when the show is running.

That said...the last screening I was present for...we lost power!

Posted by Fred Schoenfeld (Member # 2632) on 05-13-2014, 03:58 PM:

Brad,
Thanks for the info. Since I was unable to tell if the slots at 5 and above well 'hot', I emailed Dolby tech support and this is what they said:

"Hi Fred,
Obviously these slots above #4 are not used, but I tried putting a drive in slot 5 and it does not spin and not getting power.

Hope this helps.

Norm"

I hope this is correct, if you find that it is not, please post!!

Also some of earlier posts questioned my reasoning for a 2 machine setup. All of the (projector related) failures were corrected by re-seating the PC cards within the projectors. Since they came installed, I had no reason to remove them; only when we had a failure, did I have to remove and re-seat them. Our DSS200 has had no issues since new.
Fred

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-13-2014, 06:20 PM:

Even BARCOS needs their cards reseated, esp when one gets an "ip-tcp" error and the tailight goes red.

But, sometimes a reboot of the projector cures this issue.

I get hiccups with my CP850s not recognizing ATMOS, and a reboot cures this one also.