Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Complicated Projectors...

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Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-05-2014, 01:05 AM:

Since I have no experience with Digital Projectors;I had to look at some U-Tube Videos. One showing a BARCO S series;another a couple Australian Videos on Security features of a Christie or NEC: I have come to the conclusion that these Projectors are quite complicated pieces of Equipment compared to Film Projection Systems.I consider myself somewhat Knowledgable in Electronics; which after seeing the number of PCB's and IC's in some of these Units you will definitely needed a qualified Electrician to troubleshoot problems if they arise.These Projectors apparently from what I've heard on this Forum and around seem to be Reliable.I know working with CMOS,MICROCOMPUTER,MICROPROCESSOR,etc.Chips from other type Electronics that many of these IC's usually run on low negative voltage and are static sensitive so they don't like extreme heat. Perhaps in the one Video,I believe it was a Christie Unit;it had a lot of Kooling Fans all through the Unit;so the Mfgers are well aware that they need to keep the electronics as cool as possible...

For those of you that have been using them for a year or more now;are the Electronics Reliable and Holding up.I'm sure if any of those PCB's had to be replaced for whatever;your pocketbook would be quite a bit lighter...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-05-2014, 01:55 AM:

You can thank the DCI Police for all of this.

You oughta see the fans in the SONY units.

Thing is a-blazing with them everywhere.

If you want to see complexity, just crack open a SONY SRX-R-320 unit.

With the built-in storage server, internal IMB and the tricky "ballast" (rectifier), plus to add the goofy LCoS light engine setup....

Thing is a technician's nightmare.

Expensive to operate and can only use up to 4K bulbs.

-Monte

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-05-2014, 05:00 AM:

Steve, PCBs fail occasionally in all projector brands. However, given the complexity of these systems, I think we're lucky, as all brands operate more solid than probably most people expected in the early days of the digital cinema revolution. Lost shows happen rarely, and then probably most of them due to operator's faults, with the operator not necessarily being the person closest to the system physically.

Every manufacturer has smaller flaws or weaknesses in their systems, but they do not lead to lost shows in most cases.

That said - yes, these projectors are really overly complex - especially the TI series 2 electronics is actually a complex network of individual computer and sensor boards.

Much more complicated than necessary.

On the other hand did this complexity allow for quite some enhancements during the life-cycle of these machines, e.g. various 3D systems, automation/system integration, higher frame rates, the IMB system, adoption to DCI/SMPTE spec updates, etc.

The Sony SRX-R515/510 is actually an example of reduced system complexity, even with the multiple lamps and lamp ballasts.
The first one I have seen with only the necessary components. One reason why it comes at a rather small price.

- Carsten

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 08-05-2014, 07:44 AM:

Steve, an advanced component-level knowledge of electronics, or lack thereof, doesn't really factor in here. When a board fails, the manufacturer can determine which board and you will replace the entire board. Sure, I wouldn't trust just anyone to do it. But it doesn't require knowledge of ICs, etc. Carsten is quite correct. Reliability is fairly high, and many problems are operator issues, not equipment failures.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
If you want to see complexity, just crack open a SONY SRX-R-320 unit.

With the built-in storage server, internal IMB....

We've been over this before. A Sony projector does not use an IMB. That term is reserved for DLP Series 2 architecture. Using incorrect terminology is only going to confuse newcomers to the field.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-05-2014, 08:13 AM:

Lost shows are pretty rare, regardless of the technology in use. Lots of us have had close calls (late-arriving prints, late-arriving keys, equipment in marginal condition, invalid DCPs), but I can only think of a few times when I have actually witnessed a lost show (to the point of having to refund all tickets and tell people to go home):

- power failure in building (35mm, but not the fault of the format)
- bad igniter (35mm)
- mid-show lamp explosion (35mm, but not the fault of the format)
- bad transformer in AW3 platter (35mm)
- bad Dolby power supply and no spare on hand (35mm, but not the fault of the format)

I have heard of more than a few lost [dlp]

shows due to bad cards, but have not personally been present for them.

As for show interruptions, I have seen more issues with marginal Blu-Ray players and badly authored disks than everything else combined.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-05-2014, 08:21 AM:

I actually find that the series 2 projectors to be relatively simplistic.

You typically have a central controller specific to the projector brand that is in charge of projector functions and getting everything booted up properly. This is typically just one board.

An ICP (speaking about DLP stuff) that just controls the image going to the DLP engine)

A power supply of some sort...some, like Barco have that and the "Fan Controller" module that also distributes power.

So what is left? The light engine that will have the DLPs/formatters on it and the means of getting content into the projector as well as the method of generating light.

The input is either an HDSDI type module or an IMB...the IMB is a busy piece because of what it is trying to do but it really is NOT a projector item...it is located in the projector only as a security measure by the paranoid. The other possible advantage to having it in the projector is not having to deal with moving the image reliably over distance with traditional copper cables.

NEC projectors look more intimidating inside because they look like they have no organization and they like pulling wires rather tight and send them every which way. But look at a Christie or Barco...there is very little going on in there. Barco uses a backplane method to distribute signals about a bit more than Christie but by and large, when you open them up...very little is going on in there that isn't rather apparent to figure out.

Is it more complicated than a typical Century projector...well yeah...but as compared to video projectors or even TVs...pretty similar stuff and compared to the Series 1 and series 0 (the Mark VII stuff)...it has gotten much more simplistic.

As for lost shows...we have definitely had an up-tick in those since DCinema. We have had KDM issues...including having the right KDM but because the movie was made before 2010 the KDM didn't work properly with it! (Disneynature's EARTH). I've had 6 mediablock type failures in the past month...each one was a show stopper for at least a day (IMB failures are, by far, more prevalent than traditional mediablocks).

I've had the bricked Enigma that canned a day's worth of shows, and ICP failure that canned a days worth of shows...and if you are unlucky enough to have it happen after hours on a Friday, you may loose the weekend. Some of the companies are better than others at getting parts out 24/7.

While we did have failures in film, rarely would failures cost a day or more. I can change a diode in a rectifier, on-site...but when a ballast shoots its cookies...one is going to replace it...even if it is repairable at some point.

I suppose that at some point people will have spare boards on hand for the sudden failure but the little guys, by and large, don't at this point and with the diversity of the projectors and the potentially short production life, it may prove challenging for people to have ready spares like we did with film. None of this stuff is going to have the 50-year production life like film did.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-05-2014, 10:57 AM:

And if you can troubleshoot at component level then all the better! While most of the boards in these projectors are not field serviceable because of proprietary chips and on board certificates there are some repairs to them that can be done at component level. Same with sound processors and amplifiers. I used to carry a QSC USA overhaul kit in my truck (still do) and rebuild an amp on site rather than install a loaner and have to come back to swap it out. Power supplies are almost always repairable. The only issues one runs into are obsolete semiconductors. This happened early on with the Barco DP-100 in the SMPS where the switching transistors became obsolete rather quickly. Barco had to redesign the board with new devices. If old devices can be had then boards could still be repaired.

Steve... On NEC I would agree with your statement regarding their Series 1 stuff. Those were a wiring nightmare. The Series 2 stuff however is really well laid out and quite logical. I never sold any NEC Series 1 stuff because of the rats nest wiring. Turns out they are quite reliable though...

The lost show thing... Almost non-existent in my area unless a location looses power. Every one of my customers has claimed higher reliability over film even though they all had decent film gear. Most film equipment failures were bad diodes or rectifier issues of some sort.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-05-2014, 01:44 PM:

Are you seriously comparing the NEC (series 2) wiring to the Christie or Barco? Really? The NEC is a jumbled up mess compared to the others. Also, NEC tends to suffer from the "dig your way in" design when it comes to repair. Often one has to remove more than they need to get to what they want. You can event remove the ICP, for instance without removing the two modules below it!

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-06-2014, 03:34 AM:

I guess the design philosophy at NEC was somewhat different than at Christie and Barco.

While the later two seem to have some "grand design" in which they try to put together the components in a more or less elegant, structured way, also keeping serviceability in mind, NECs design is much more "to the point", it get's the job done and doesn't really try to be pretty. They probably designed the components first with only a big picture in mind and then figured out how to put it all together later. This doesn't only reduce the amount of material needed, but also reduces time to market.

Personally, I favor the more elaborate design, it has a more quality feel to it too. But unfortunately, it doesn't automatically imply that this design is more reliable or more durable. In history, the "simpler" and more to the point design often proved more reliable.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-06-2014, 05:59 AM:

By percentage of our installed base...your theory isn't holding up. Furthermore, the failures are typically the individual modules (e.g. lamp power supply) so how you get the wires here and there have no relation on the failure mode of the module. By far, the best design from a service standpoint are the Barcos. Often is one thing is not in the way of getting to another. Most things are modular in nature and "plug in." Just about everything in one can be removed in mere minutes and with basic tools (screw drivers and maybe an allen key...most hardware is captivated too).

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-06-2014, 01:16 PM:

Well, I did not apply my "theory" to DCI projectors just yet, I don't have anywhere near sufficient data to get to any conclusions.

I also prefer the more modular design of the Barco projectors, most aspect have been quite well thought out, but my experience with NEC projectors is rather limited. This garbled design seems to be their trademark. It reminds me of a piece of PCB design software on auto-drive, where you just throw in the components and the software figures out the most optimal routing. The end result most often doesn't look pretty. If you would design it all by hand, it would most obviously look much better, you will probably even feel better about it. But, the auto-drive version *MIGHT* actually perform better...

I remember trying to repair an old NEC XT6000 projector. An NC2000 is a simple beauty inside, compared to the mess inside of that thing.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2014, 07:29 PM:

Honestly Steve, I have had so few Series 2 NEC issues on the mid and big projectors that how they are assembled really doesn't matter much. What little work I have had to do has been very easy to accomplish. You can change an igniter on an NC-2000 in about 15 min. A xenon supply, about 35 minutes. Extra cash spent on "glory" projectors just because they are a little easier to work on is a waste of money in the long haul.... And at that on a 10 to 12 year life span device! Sheesh...

The NC-900 on the other hand fits your description to a tee. None the less it is uber easy to work on and replace parts in. No two connectors going to a board are the same, so it's not possible to hook something up wrong. The hardest parts to work on... The lens mount and Ballast B. About an hour just to get the lens mount out of the thing, you must remove three layers of projector front to get it out. On the Ballast, about 70 minutes to swap Ballast B on my first try. The rest is very accessible and you seem to be forgetting that all the NEC series 2 projectors are very modular.

Mark

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-06-2014, 09:48 PM:

That's another thing that concerns me. What is the life expectancy going to be with these Digital Projectors. Aside the Fact that these are probably like buying Computers. The Technology keeps going and your new PC is already Dated in 6 months or a year.I'm sure BARCO,CHRISTIE & NEC are constantly working on updated and Future revisions to their Models and also Coming out with Newer Technology.These Smaller Theaters that have already invested anywhere from 60 to 100grand to convert when they really didn't have the Money for the Changeover to begin with! Are their Projectors going to be outdated in 5 years and the Mom and Pop Theater find themselves in the same position dealing with updated/New Equipment that's going to send them into Bankruptcy..

In the Film business many of the old Theaters had the same projection Equipment for Decades. I know in the Case of 2 of the Downtown Theaters here(one being former FOX)They had the same Projectors originally installed in the 1940's clear up to the late 70's. I'm just wondering if anybody but the Large Multiplex Companies are going to be able to hang on if they need to continually update their Equipment...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-06-2014, 11:38 PM:

BARCO did a decent software upgrade from 1.13 up to 1.2.

This upgrade did help out a lot of operating issues along with some other improvements.

Now, have to convince BARCO to use HEPA filtering system...

Is the Babcock still in operation there in Billings? An old TOI location 30 yrs ago .. and Verl Clark was manager.

-Monte

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-07-2014, 01:23 AM:

quote: Steve Matz
Are their Projectors going to be outdated in 5 years and the Mom and Pop Theater find themselves in the same position dealing with updated/New Equipment that's going to send them into Bankruptcy..

Barco introduced their first real production 2K DCI projectors in 2005 and many of those DP100s are still in production. Christie followed that same year with their 2K CP2000 machines. So the first iteration is very soonish hitting the 10 year mark and I guess that's about what to expect from it, maybe you can push another five years out of it. But, you now see that certain features are not available on certain equipment, like HFR, 4K, etc.

Most recent equipment cannot handle something like 4K 3D or maybe even HFR 4K 3D and although there are no final DCI specs for that yet, those things will eventually arrive and will force another wave of expensive upgrades, for those who want to stay on the cutting edge. The advance in home electronics also forces this to a certain degree. For example, you cannot stay at 2K for eternity, if every new TV sold from 2016 or so is automatically a 4K device and once Netflix & co. figure a way out to deliver 4K content to every subscriber.

The same will happen to sound systems too. If you're in a competitive market, you will probably have to look at next-gen sound systems like Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D. Those aren't cheap either.

Unfortunately, for the "Mom and Pop Theater", it will be difficult to follow this trend. The bigger venues do not only have the advantage in scale, they also can easier shove their older equipment down the line: Upgrade your best/biggest auditoriums and use the decommissioned equipment in the next room or maybe even to another site entirely. It will also be easier for them to get discounts and leases.

A "Mom and Pop Theater" can still be totally profitable, like operating in a market with no real local competition or in a certain niche. And, there's more to a movie theater than just the latest tech crammed into a room. There are many reasons why I very often prefer a well maintained and operated "Mom and Pop Theater" above some sterile, homogenized megaplex, even if the latter one has all the latest gizmos installed. I'm certain, I'm not alone in this.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-07-2014, 02:40 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Is the Babcock still in operation there in Billings? An old TOI location 30 yrs ago .. and Verl Clark was manager.

-Monte

Yes Monte the Babcock is still here;but it's not a continuous Movie House showing Features any longer. Before it was remodeled they used if for everything from Boxing Smokers to Live Stage Plays. It has Projection Equipment again.I knew the main projectionist there for years(Jim Nelson)I think he was there when they first installed E7's in the 40's. The Theater is supposedly the oldest Theater in Montana starting up in 1917. I doubt it will ever be a daily/night showing theater again but they will show some old classics now and then...

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-07-2014, 03:52 AM:

(Not to drag this topic out about the Babcock..) looked at the website for the Babcock and the theatre looked like it was ran for years under the FOX Intermountain chain...even with the "Babcock Theatre" signage that ran across the street. For a lot of FOX locations had that for of signage that spanned across the street.

The one pict of the auditorium with all of that French scrollwork above the stage and side walls is similar to one Fox Intermountain location-being my hometown theatre being the "Paramount Theatre" in Idaho Falls, ID. where I resided as Chief Projectionist for a good dozen years.

Please PM me if want to chat more ...

Thx - Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-07-2014, 11:53 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Honestly Steve, I have had so few Series 2 NEC issues on the mid and big projectors that how they are assembled really doesn't matter much. What little work I have had to do has been very easy to accomplish. You can change an igniter on an NC-2000 in about 15 min. A xenon supply, about 35 minutes. Extra cash spent on "glory" projectors just because they are a little easier to work on is a waste of money in the long haul.... And at that on a 10 to 12 year life span device! Sheesh...

Cool...we're being honest. So you are saying that based on your needing to service new projectors, one should not judge how hard it will be servicing aged projectors? The difference in the cost of the NEC versus the other DLPs is not in the fancy layout...it is in the 20% more light, better assembly overall, not assembled in China.

Yeah, you can change the igniter on an NEC because it is looking right at you...by luck. However, if you need to change the LPSU, well it is a good thing since you have to remove the igniter first! Oh and there are two different LPSUs in the NC1200 and the igniters must match the LPSU. That little diddy kept a theatre down an extra day...not because we didn't proper identify the LPSU/Igniter...but because the support for the projector sent the wrong thing anyway.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2014, 04:26 PM:

LOL! I had the same issue where they sent the wrong ignitor, a little different twist though. NEVER trust Strong! I had a bad one in an NC-2000 and they sent one for an NC-1200. Didn't keep us off the screen though as I had already swapped the bad one out of a projector running the 4kw lamp with one running a 2kw lamp. The bad one lit the 2kw no problem. The other kicker is IF they have to get the part from NEC that ads another day to your order wait. This seems to happen more often than not lately. I don't think Strong actually stocks much of anything any longer.

Why would age change the serviceability of a projector, other than possible parts availability? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever read here. Manufacturers have already clearly stated a minimum of 10 to 12 year equipment support on that. 10 years form now it's going to be exactly the same effort to service a module, LPSU or pump asit is today and I won't be wading through an inch of dust coating boards and insides in order to do it.

As for made in China... So is 70% of your cough-cough(Supermicro) Dolby server. The majority of the chips in all products see some manufacturing steps in some part of Asia. The DLP chips themselves begin life in Tokyo and then go to the USA for further manufacturing steps.

The lastest Barco LPSU's are made in India. India for electronics IMHO is a far worse source than China. What? So do the Indian children and ladies that make shirts by day make Barco LPSU's by night, or do the fishermen come in and do that job?

Light level? What are you going to do with that surplus 20% just burn it off and send it up the stack? All my NEC's meet brightness specs with at least 25% left to go to the top end of the current range. If you can make spec at reasonable lamp levels that extra 20% of light available is usless.

Finally... Reliability. NEC has been uber reliable. Just ask any of my customers. Some of them are on this forum regularly, so feel free to ask them.

Mark

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-07-2014, 04:51 PM:

SENT YOU A P.M. MONTE [beer]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-07-2014, 05:07 PM:

Mark, you ignorant slut...

My reference is to as the projectors age...the need for service will increase and the increase in service times on the NEC will add up as you try to keep the older projectors going.

Who told you that these projectors are to last 10-12 years? Where do you have that in print? The closest you can claim is that they did/do offer a 10-year warranty if you are willing to pay the equivalent of a light engine and some boards. But I'll grant you that 10-years is a reasonable life span for these...not problem free...but in a serviceable fashion.

As for Dolby...their server remains TAA compliant. Does that mean it is 100% USA...of course not...but better than 50% is made in TAA approved countries. NEC...NOT.

I haven't seen the made in India stickers on the Barco power supplies...I haven't had problems with them either. I did have problems with some early DP2K-20Cs and the DP2000 where a couple did go..but lately...sorry no.

As for "surplus" light level that means a lower wattage lamp and/or running lower power...as in costs less to run and lights bigger screens better.

I don't need to ask your customers Mark...we have NEC, Barco and Christie under our service already...and we know first hand how well each perform (as well as the support and service on them).

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-07-2014, 07:21 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Mark, you ignorant slut...

Believe it or not there may be members so young they don't know this reference.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-07-2014, 07:33 PM:

Steve: You should fix the teaser subject.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-07-2014, 07:41 PM:

YES; THEY WERE A LOVELY COUPLE [beer]

JANE YOU IGNORANT SLUT!

Manny are you the Film-Tech Police?...All Right Officer I'll go quietly but the Cuffs are awfully tight! [Wink]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 08-07-2014, 07:49 PM:

Friendly word of advice: Please fix your "teaser" title.

See rule #7 in the Film-Tech Site Rules.

You can also find a link to the FAQ's and Site Rules by clicking the link near the top of every page.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2014, 11:11 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
My reference is to as the projectors age..

I am still trying to figure this statement out. Now you sound like Faux News where they spit out 15% of the facts correctly 50% of the time. I've spent the last 45 years of my life fixing electronics of all types. You name it! I have never seen a device that becomes more difficult to repair as it ages. So what is so difficult to replace in one of these projectors? I've had them all apart... There is nothing in an NC-2000, NC-1200, or NC-3200/3240 that is going to take you more than about an hour to replace to get a projector going again. Even the light engine is a 15 minute swap if you order the correct version of the replacement and not just the bare engine. Please clarify this but other than replacing the chassis itself there is nothing time consuming about working on them. A reflector takes 3 minutes and replacing a lamp is faster than a Barco and more accessible than a Christie. I work on the other brands too, you seem to forget that... The real truth is that no one knows how often these will need service, but the fact is that all three brands are going to need it at some point, however you make it sound like it's going to be a constant when that's far from the truth.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-07-2014, 11:11 PM:

Manny, I'm surprised you didn't start your last post with "I don't mean to be an insensitive prick, but..." [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-07-2014, 11:13 PM:

LOL! Steve, that's classic...

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 08-08-2014, 02:05 AM:

I propose the big NEC vs Barco Projector Assembly Bash.

In the left corner will be Steve G., representing Barco, in the right corner will be Mark G., representing NEC.

Round 1: All projectors will be stripped down to their chassis, you will be provided the parts. Whoever assembles the first fully working projector wins the round.

Round 2: The same idea as Round 1, only now all the parts will be scattered around a big field. To complicate matters even more, all Designed by the hands of Jebus, but still made in China stickers will be removed. Stealing a part from the competition, while he's not looking is totally permitted.

Round 3: The same idea as the previous rounds, but now you're only provided a chassis. You have to order all the necessary parts yourself at your suppliers.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-08-2014, 10:07 AM:

I Cry Foul here;Steve hit Mark in the Eye
when Mark was Tieing his shoe! [Confused]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2014, 10:50 AM:

Marcel...

That's a go as long as Strong is not one of those supplying the parts. Or if they have to then they also have to supply Steve's batch of parts. I guarantee you that no one will win that round!

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-08-2014, 11:30 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
. I've spent the last 45 years of my life fixing electronics of all types. You name it! I have never seen a device that becomes more difficult to repair as it ages.

.45acp AMT Hardballer

Yes Mark, but have you ever repaired a PHASE PLASMA RIFLE in the 40 WATT RANGE [Confused]

Posted by Patrick de Groot (Member # 858) on 08-08-2014, 12:04 PM:

Or put arnies legs back to where they belong at the end of the movie.. Oops spoiler.. I think hes quite a nice artificial guy as long as youre not his target.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2014, 01:17 PM:

Best to be careful where you post that weenie plasma gun Steve Matz. I own one of these flame throwing S&W's! I can blow that plasma gun to bits and cauterize the stub of his missing arm all in one shot.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-08-2014, 01:56 PM:

OK Mark; your S&W against my DRACO Pistol; I'll even let you have extra Speedloaders [Eek!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egdb1AQMufQ

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2014, 02:10 PM:

That's fine. The .50 would cut your Draco right in half.... It's a big target to hit!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-08-2014, 05:10 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I am still trying to figure this statement out. Now you sound like Faux News where they spit out 15% of the facts correctly 50% of the time. I've spent the last 45 years of my life fixing electronics of all types. You name it! I have never seen a device that becomes more difficult to repair as it ages.

How are you reading that in? I've said (and I'll say it again)...it isn't that it becomes harder to fix as it ages...it already IS harder to fix. The NEED to fix it will increase as it ages thus you will have to deal with those longer repair times more frequently as it ages.

NEC is assembled in a that is similar to other products designed in Japan. That is, you have to be able to "dig your way in" to get to something. It is built from the inside out so if you need to get to something that is towards the center of the projector, you will need to remove what is in its way. Compare that to a Barco projector where is is built outside-in. Generally speaking, once you have removed the "cover", you are at the very piece you are trying to get to. Very rarely do you need to dig in at all and when you do...not by more than a layer or so.

As for the proposed "contest"...To get a Barco "B" series projector into a rather tight path into a booth (on more than one occasion) I really lightened it up (because it is rather big and heavy)...by gutting it. Pulled everything harnesses in the chassis (and the signal backplane). Total time to strip it down to almost nothingness? About 15-minutes and up it went at any angle we needed to get it to fit. It didn't take much longer to get it all back together too.

As for changing XENON lamps...Christie is BY far the easiest on the medium/large projectors. Heck, on series 2, they even put the tools right there for you. Their auto lamp alignment is also real good.

NEC isn't too bad but their anode support is placed a bit far forward and will either a) catch the vent hole in the anode stem, or b) if using an non-Ushio lamp, often will have the lamp sit on its chamfer so adjusting focus also adjusts vertical a bit...if you defocus too far, it could drop out. I also don't like that if you don't happen to have a socket wrench, with extension with you...your open-end wrench better be of the right length or it with either not fit or crash into things! If you do have the socket wrench (advisable), then be sure you understand torque because you can break that connection if you over due it. Of course, I wish Barco would learn about lockwashers (Split washers, not star) for their DC connections...heck, I'd be happy with wave washers...but flat washers? What are they thinking?)

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-08-2014, 05:35 PM:

quote:
That's fine. The .50 would cut your Draco right in half.... It's a big target to hit!

OK MARK: Were raising the Stakes here. How about your .50 cal
up against my railway Piece [Eek!]

Concede Yet! [beer]

Careful Boys,Be Alert, Mark may sneak up and take you out! [sleep]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-08-2014, 08:46 PM:

I don't think I need say anything about your toy gun.... [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-09-2014, 11:27 AM:

Steve G., Clearly I am. Missing something here. You claim this stuff is hard to work on, that the older it gets it will require more frequent repairs? I'm not sure who the slut is here... The hardest part of this job is physically lifting the equipment into place. There is nothing remotely difficult or really time consuming when it comes to repairing any of it. It's obvious you haven't ever experienced a really difficult repair yet in your life. When you were a Freshman in High School I was repairing video tape recorders at Panasonic. They could on occasion be somewhat difficult and we did not swap boards or change modules to repair them. At Panasonic I was graded in efficiency every month based on number of repairs, worked hours and number of returned repairs. It was a fair way to grade an employee. When you were a senior in high school I was repairing 2" video tape machines and RCA color camera's in broadcast TV. 2" tape machines are sometimes extremely difficult to repair and some repairs take days just to diagnose... again at the component level. The cameras were relatively easy to deal with.

Based on my past repair experiences there is nothing in our industry at all that is difficult to repair or very time consuming, unless it is an intermittent problem requiring babysitting or return visits. Clearly, you need to go on and accept some difficult challenges in other more difficult fields so you can have a clear basis of understanding what is and what isn't difficult to repair. Because you don't have a clue! Quite frankly, digital has been a cream puff of a job... at least for me. If projectors require more frequent repairs in the future, so what! When it does it will be EASY stuff like fans, power supplies, pumps, switches and hard drives. Same as when I worked in Broadcast! There is still nothing time consuming about any of it. The manufacturers know exactly how long it takes to replace x component. They even list that in some service manuals. If it takes you longer to replace a part that's not my problem.

Mark

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-09-2014, 11:42 AM:

Your Fault Mark;You made me do it [Eek!]

Now were all Gone! [sleep]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-09-2014, 12:36 PM:

Ya can't shoot that from a gun. HAs to be fomr a gun... You're disqualified!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-09-2014, 03:13 PM:

Thanks for the diatribe Mark, you do nothing to support your case. How you equate HARD with HARDER...yes, the root word is in both...but while I was in English, you clearly weren't. Harder is a comparative statement. NEC is HARDER to work on than others and HARDER equates to more time spent, on average for any repair. Time is money and the longer it takes you to repair something, because it is harder, the more it will cost. It isn't a hard concept. I would think one of your years would understand that.

Even on installation...want to get the focus perfectly uniform on an NEC? Good luck...it can be done and the vertical isn't too bad...but horizontal...what a joke...on the NC900C...they had the sense to not use the same methods. Compare that to a Christie or Barco...you are going to double/triple your time working on an NEC.

I know, I know...you get the NECs that are always perfect, right out of the box...they have them preset just right for whatever down-angle you are dealing with or offset. Or maybe you just don't notice and therefore don't see the deficiencies.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-09-2014, 04:27 PM:

Speaking of complexity, I've never had the pleasure to replace a LPSU (the second stage) on a Sony 515. Deep in the heart of the machine, I'm told the whole projector has to be taken apart!

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 08-09-2014, 04:49 PM:

I have come to the conclusion that just like our finger prints differ so does our individual intellect when it comes to Building,Repairing,and even trouble shooting problems. Just like I mentioned in another post about Individuals not being able to comprehend what they read from an instructional Manual but show them a Video one time and they can perform the task quite easily.

Each of us have individual qualities that make us unique.One person may do a repair/rebuild of something that he feels is simple and can do it in half the time of the other. It doesn't mean the Slower person is any less competent; however as Steve said time is money in this day and age. A person who is more meticulous in repairing things will always take longer than the speed demon who only cares about how fast he can finish the Job.

Myself I would rather have a Tech that double and triple checks his work than the One that Brags that he can do a job in a certain amount of time.Being Fussy and meticulous myself I would have never been able to work in the Fast Food Industry where speed is of the essence. I would be fussing about how the pickles were arranged on your Hamburger and trying to make it appear as the TV Commercial shows it(have you every bought a fast food item that looked the way it appears on TV?)and the Drive up line would be stretching around the block.

Obviously the first time you repair, disassemble,etc. something; it will probably take the longest amount of time because your not that familiar with the layout/arrangement of components,etc. but after you've done a dozen or more than its a piece of Cake. Some people are blessed with an almost perfect photographic Memory. Show them Once how something works or is repaired/assembled and it's locked in their memory forever.

My Dad was in the coin operated machine business from the 50's to the 70's. He could look in the back of a Pinball and remember the Wire Layout like it was nothing. Although I could fix the same pinball problem that he did,maybe having to refer back to the schematic now and then, didn't make me feel like I was incompetent to do the Job. It just made me envious that a person could remember complicated color coated wiring harness's with ease.

Same thing with these Digital Projectors.Some are more complicated than others,but what may seem difficult to repair/rebuild to one tech is a piece of Cake to another. Just like the forever feud between Car Lovers (CHEVY-FORD)their will always be Pros and cons about the Product. People that say a Product is JUNK because they may of had a bad individual situation with one need to remember something. Companies that make Junk won't stay around because word of mouth spreads quickly. Even though the Old 35mm Projector Mfgers had different Quirks on different Models they produced; None of them would have been in Business as long as they were if they produced nothing but Junk...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-09-2014, 05:09 PM:

No feud here as far as gear goes Steve M., you have about the same chance of reliability with all brands but the NEC does offer full air intake filtration where the other two do not. So as for longevity of internal components you clearly have a better chance there. The fact remains that the hardest part of this job is lifting a projector onto it's pedestal. The rest of it is a cakewalk.

Mark