quote: Mark Ogden

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Are you absolutely committed to projection? The Dolby 4220 monitor is a jaw-dropping piece of kit that is fully capable of P3 space ...

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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Also, you can not only grade on these units, but also qc final DCPs incl. audio mapping, etc. if you buy a server/IMB/IMS with it.

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quote: Marco Giustini

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0.69" will give you a reduced contrast ratio. Ideally, you want to stay on the bigger brothers which, unfortunately, will be brighter.

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quote: Sylvain Cossette

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The Solaria, NC900c et the Barco 8Sx being all 0.69" do they all suffer from the low contrast or the actual problem would be brigthness being too high for the small room? In that case would having a greater throw distance and/or lower gain screen help?

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They all suffer more or less. But it's hard to say how to deal with this. 0.98 will give you 'some' increased contrast, and it tops out with the larger 1.2" machines.

You can improve contrast somewhat with aperture plates and lens iris, but I don't know if the 0,69" machines offer these options at all, as they are stripped down versions of the larger machines. I guess the Barco does.

You can also use a grey screen - this will increase contrast and at the same time reduce brightness.

Honestly, I would try to go for the DP2k-8Sx. You could as well try to go for a Christie 2210/2215 and buy a server later for DCP qc.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Sylvain Cossette (Member # 8336) on 08-11-2014, 05:05 PM:
 
Thanks guys, your feedback is highly appreciated.

Bigger chip projector is interesting but there isn't much choice when taking into consideration the space and budget i have. I can only see the Christie CP2210 but then again, i don't have a exact listing, surely this one goes around 50k USD$.

The Barco 8Sx looks like a good projector too Carsten, being also .69" i've chosen the Christie because the spec are pretty much the same but price is reasonably lower here.

Well, i guess i need to start looking for sponsors!
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-11-2014, 05:27 PM:
 
Carsten,
I believe a grey screen will reduce your black level but also your white level, hence it won't increase the contrast ratio.

Grey screens were used when home cinema projectors were delivering awful blacks.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-12-2014, 04:17 AM:
 
Grey screens improve the ambient/projection light relation - which is useful if your projector is too bright for a given screen size and can't be reduced in brightness further. Plus, of course it brings the screen luminance down to acceptable levels.

@Sylvain: Good luck trying to feed 2k/P3 into the Christie IMS - the only realtime-capable signal inputs are DVI/HDMI... That's the real issue with the Solaria One/+ - it's limited connectivity. This is really only meant to be installed in cinemas.

Also, I think you can not reduce brightness on the Christie (and Barco) down to where the NC900 can go with one lamp at reduced current. The smallest Christie supplied bulb is 1.4kW. Don't know if Ushio would have suitable lamps smaller than that.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-12-2014, 09:07 AM:
 
Absolutely go with the Xenon lamp if you are doing color grading. The 900 would suffice however if you also have a color space meter which I would assume a color grading lab would automatically purchase anyway. The NC900 does have mercury lamps but it is more color stable than one might think it to be.

Mark
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-12-2014, 09:13 AM:
 
Note, Ushio has the DXL-8BAF for those needing just 800-watts on a Barco. Christie USED to have apertures for the CP2000-M CP2210 but they are gone.

I would not do color grading on the NC900C. Despite claims by others, I have not found it to be all that stable. Sufficient for cinemas where there was NO control over color though...just not in a color grading suite.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-12-2014, 12:22 PM:
 
Semi-off-topic: how does a modern color grading operation work? I assume that this is for a DI, correct? Do you do the DCI version first and then make a rec. 709 version from that or vice-versa?

I recently went through this process (sort of), but it was a photochemical color timing process to produce prints, and then an IP went off to the telecine department of the lab, where they made a rec. 709 HDCAM master. A DCP was made from that and it took multiple attempts before they scaled the luminance values correctly for DCI (the first attempts used the 16-235 broadcast range and not the 0-255 DCI range). I realize that a DI would have given a better-looking DCP, but my 16mm negative was cut into A&B rolls (does this preclude a DI for the video/DCP end of things?) and I did not have the budget for a DI, anyway (and I wanted the film prints to be made through an entirely photochemical process).
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-12-2014, 01:19 PM:
 
Carsten,

I'm assuming a grading room will be pitch black, so there is no need to control the ambient.
I agree that a grey screen will lower the brightness, but won't improve the contrast, do you agree?

I know Mark would disagree, but NEC told me that to achieve DCI specs the 900 has to run two lamps. Why, I don't know. Just don't shoot on the messenger.

Steve,
I am not a massive lover of UHP lamps but I must say that after 12 months after my first calibration I found the NC900 still spot on - that seriously surprised me.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-12-2014, 11:02 PM:
 
It would surprise me too since I didn't find it to be spot on even an hour after setting it.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-13-2014, 06:17 AM:
 
something you need to account for is that UHP lamps take a while to stabilise when the wattage is changed.
If you have, say, Flat at 80% and Scope at 100%, colours will drift for around 10 minutes (mostly during the first 2-3 minutes) after format change before they finally settle down.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-13-2014, 06:24 AM:
 
I didn't move the power at all realizing that the color isn't stable between power settings in the first place.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-13-2014, 07:19 AM:
 
bizarre. I'll check on the next 900.
 

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Posted by Marc Porlier (Member # 8413) on 08-13-2014, 09:23 AM:
 
Salut Sylvain,

Contact me directly via PM or email: marc.porlier@barco.com I am the Eastern Canadian rep and I can help you. I must tell you pricing is not what you expect
 

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Posted by Sylvain Cossette (Member # 8336) on 08-13-2014, 11:21 AM:
 
I'm waiting for aquote of the different models we talked about so i can know more clearly where i stand.

The NEC NC900 seem to be good from reviews i've got but i do beleive also that i would get a better color consistency with a Xenon lamp on the long term (we do have the equipement to calibrate those).

Thank for the info on the lamp Steve, altough it's only for the bigger model, could be usefull.

@Scott Not a expert when it come to film transfert but i think the wolkflow would have been to telecine straight to DPX full range and do the DCP from those thus minimizing the conversion. The line is a bit blurred when it comes to definition, but a DI usualy involve only digital process (shot on digital camare->grading->DCP (no film at all).

@Marc Salut, i'll send you an email today.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-13-2014, 12:31 PM:
 

quote: Marco Giustini

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Steve,
I am not a massive lover of UHP lamps but I must say that after 12 months after my first calibration I found the NC900 still spot on - that seriously surprised me.

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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75% is the lowest, but the lamps will go down early if operated at that setting

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quote: Marco Giustini

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Do we know that for sure? Again, not arguing, just asking. UHP are not xenon and I am not sure that the same rules apply.

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Not formally confirmed yet, but both NC900C and Sony 515/510 have a high failure rate with the 330/350W lamps, and it seems to go with low lamp currents. It's also a known issue with presentation and home video UHPs that they don't like to be operated in ECO mode for long periods.

Currently, I would try to operate these 330/350W Ushio UHPs well above 80%. The Sony 450W lamps do not seem to have that issue.

Of course, as both Sony and NEC replace early failures free of charge, one could just go on running them at 80% until maybe finally the manufacturer and Ushio have sorted this issue out.

I have no solid idea how the NC900C running on one lamp at 80% compares to an 8Sx with the 900W bulb at the lowest acceptable current setting. I would assume both having comparable brightness. I did measure the NC900C under these conditions recently, and it would be close to spec at Sylvains quoted screen size. I still think he should go with the Barco, but I have no US/CDN street price comparison. A I said, in germany the price difference between the NC900C and 8Sx, both including the server, is small enough for the 8Sx to win, given it's overall quality.

Different question - are there other, cheaper P3/12Bit capable non-DCI compliant projectors available?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 09-04-2014, 07:50 PM:
 
My DI-2 Theatre is just a little bigger than the room dimensions you gave earlier. We have a NEC NC800c in that room for post-production work screenings. The throw in that room is 21 feet, which gives a 11 foot 1.78/1.85 picture.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2014, 08:49 PM:
 
Carsten,

It appears that the lamp failures may have been more related to a bad batch of lamps as they failed randomly and at literally any number of hours on them. Sony had the EXACT same issues with the exact same lamp. I had nearly a dozen lamps out of 30 projectors fail over the first year, the majority have never failed and one location is already on it's second set of lamps now, having hit the 3500 hour mark. It also does not seem to be specifically related to running at low current... most of my installs are running at 50% to 2/3 rated level, I have one on a 29' wide screen running at 82% and both those lamps failed at different times. The replacement lamps that have been sent out have been performing just fine and none have failed (yet). Some of those replacements are now quite old from an hour standpoint. This isn't exactly a brand new lamp either. Its been used in other DLP projectors for at least several years before it hit the NC-900's and Sony's.

Mark
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-06-2014, 04:19 AM:
 
Thanks Carsten.

I remember one of the 515'5 upgrades was supposed to improve lamps reliability with one type of lamps (can't remember which one on top of my head) which led me to believe it had something to do with temperature and I believe I noted the fans acting differently after that upgrade.

Somewhere I read that UHP lamps are supposed to run at a very high temperature and keeping them cooler does not help. That's why I thought that maybe running them at a lower power was not necessarily helping. It would be nice for the manufacturer to give us some figures.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-06-2014, 06:39 AM:
 
Yeah - the strange thing is - the 1.21.0 Upgrade mentioned improved stability for 450W lamps - which never caused any problems. Maybe a typo?

'Failure rate improvement of 450W lamp'

As far as I know, the problem is not yet solved, as replacement lamps still fail prematurely. A combination of cooling and lamp type + operational current is assumed to cause the issue. There is no clear statement from Sony so far, don't know if NEC ever issued one. But both replace lamps without any questions.

Another unknown impact with the Sonys may be the influence of the external exhaust blowers - there are different types with different exhaust performance figures installed - and that may have an impact on the cooling/temperature curve of the bulbs. Well, in the long run, it's USHIOs problem.

Yes, there are some lamps that perform to the warranted hours, but the failure rate is still too high. Luckily, this is no big problem as the NC900C has two lamps to choose from and the Sonys 4/6, so it rarely means lost shows, and the replacement procedure is so easy, even the ushers can do it.

From what I know now, I would always install the Sony with the 450W lamps - their light efficiency is higher than the 330 (these need more color correction). Means, DCI corrected the brightness difference is more like a 250W to 450W relation. At least for now, they last longer, even if the warranted hours are lower. And if you are still too bright on the 450W, you can use the light blends to reduce it considerably, in addition to modest current reductions.

Of course, when you count in some common premature failure, 3000h for the 330W vs. 2000h for the 450W will give you a higher probability that you will be eligible for a free replacement lamp every now and then ;-)

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-06-2014, 05:35 PM:
 
Considering that - as you pointed out - you don't lose a show if a lamp explodes and replacing them is dead easy, I'd go for the 330 to have lifetime free replacements!
The downside is the colours, the 515 is not as good as the 900 when it comes to maintain the proper colours on screen. I guess that mix and matching new and old lamps won't help.
 

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Posted by Sylvain Cossette (Member # 8336) on 09-22-2014, 03:38 PM:
 
Hey everyone,

Time to updated our process here. In terms of equipment, we are going with the Barco 8Sx with integrated Doremi IMS1000. Lamp will be a 1.4Kw tune down since the 850Kw isn't available yet.Sound will go thru a Dolby CP750.

As for the room ,we decided to take down a wall and combine two of our editing suite to add more volume to our main room (the other one will be relocated).

As i am working on the plan, some technical issue i still can't find information on:
As i understand, there is no trapezoid adjustment in this projector so it as to be parallel to the screen. Lens shift can be use to move the image. Now, on a 260" (~22') distance using the 1.2-1.7 lens, what is the maximum vertical shift?
As of now, i have 8" difference between the lens and the middle of the screen.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-13-2014, 08:16 AM:
 
Hi Sylvain,

good decision to go with the 8Sx and Doremi IMS and CP750. These are quite standard pieces of hardware and will be a good starting point for DCP qualification/testing. I always consider it important that grading suites and DCP mastering studios are familiar with real cinema gear. Very often I am puzzled that staff there has no idea about the playback systems they create content for.

Some people here do not like the Doremi IMS, but I think for a grading suite you will be okay with it, you don't need the connection flexibility of a full external server.

Lens shift will not be a problem under these conditions. Good to use the 8kW lamp once it is available.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 10-13-2014, 11:20 AM:
 
Using lens shift to 8" on screen should be no problem. The Barco "S" projectors have less lens shift than "C" or "B" models... but still a fair bit. I don't know the actual image percentage available without doing more searching than I have time for.
I believe there is some scaling available in the projector for keystone correction but I have rarel used scaling. It's not generally used in cinemas. You do get some staircasing if you use scaling.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-13-2014, 12:24 PM:
 
The S2k have less shift range than 0.98 and 1.2/1.38, but still a lot more in the vertical direction than in the horizontal direction.

I was puzzled recently to find a datasheet for the NC900 with accompanying lenses which quotes only 0.11 H-shift factor:

http://www.nec-pj.com/cat_data/pj/WDPJ-1307-583NN.pdf

Fortunately, it is a bit more than that in real life, but still less than I used to find on higher class projectors. Drove me into trouble installing an NC900C only 1,30m off the screen center over a 10m distance.

8" V-Shift over that distance is indeed no problem.

Does Barco quote real life shift levels for their lens/projector combos? There are some numbers in installation manuals, but they seem to be common max figures accross all available lenses and machines.

- Carsten
 

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