Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What goes wrong in digital cinema?

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Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 09-12-2014, 10:58 AM:

I'm preparing a presentation on digital cinema quality control. I'd like to hear comments from people on what sort of stuff they typically find has gone wrong when doing a maintenance check of a theater. I'm thinking of things like failed speaker drivers, stolen speakers, rattling speakers, high noise level, low luminance, color shift, etc.

What sort of stuff do you find during a maintenance visit, especially stuff that has not yet been reported by patrons?

THANKS!

Harold

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 09-12-2014, 11:09 AM:

biggest problem with digital cinema:
The 35mm projectors are gone!

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 09-12-2014, 11:15 AM:

And, of course, that was noticed during a QC check!

THANKS!

Harold

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-12-2014, 11:28 AM:

Maintenance check like from a technician visit or just daily troubles?

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 09-12-2014, 11:52 AM:

Stolen speakers? *boggle*

How in the world do you steal speakers from a theatre without someone noticing?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 09-12-2014, 12:02 PM:

How to steal speakers:
1) take some tools and go to a late show movie
2) After the movie when everyone leaves during the credits, go behind the screen, wait for staff to leave and lock up (or just do it during the movie if you dare)
3) remove speaker driver
4) go out emergency exit

It's not actually unusual: sub drivers, main channel drivers, horn drivers all disappear but the sub drivers are the popular target.

Complete cabinets rarely go but it's happened. Someone can hide behind a screen quite easily and unless there's an alarm tripped they have until morning to do as they wish.

Posted by Gavin Lewarne (Member # 5397) on 09-12-2014, 12:03 PM:

During my normal routine maintenance, I removed of the plastic side covers (the lamphouse one) and found a big ass spider in there guarding a blob of spider eggs. How they had not been cooked I don't know, and they hadn't been in there long as I clean the filters every 2 weeks.

I safely transplanted them to my basement room.

Does that count?

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 09-12-2014, 12:30 PM:

Thanks for the comments! I guess I'm looking for stuff noticed by theater staff, whether by a tech on a maintenance check or by a manager who notices terrible sound or picture.

I used to work in broadcast. I've seen stations taken off the air by various animals crawling into equipment to get warm and not surviving.

Harold

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-12-2014, 02:09 PM:

I'd say number one is: misaligned/badly installed lamps.

Then
Amplfiers' gains which get dirty and stop working/lower the output
Horns got loose and pointing to the ceiling/elsewhere
porthole windows which have never been cleaned before

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-12-2014, 03:54 PM:

We had a 'classic' 35mm setup with CP65/DA20, QSC USA amps and JBL speakers.

When we installed our digital system, we ran into trouble when we tried to calibrate the surrounds. It turned out that some of the 10 JBL 8330 we had in a 5 each LS/RS config had their 508G woofers blown. They were essentially dead on low volume signals, but rattled like mad on higher volume signals. We were puzzled because we didn't understand when this happened and for how long this was going on before we did the digital install and noticed it. With the install, we also split them into 3/2 groups for 7.1 to be fed from a 4ch amp.

We couldn't solve the issue with the blown speakers during the installation because we had no spare speakers at hand. We configured a high pass filter on the AP20 for all surround speakers and decided to finish the install. The filter did not let lower frequencies through so the rattle did not occur. It sounded a bit 'phony', but it was a decent workaround.

We then sourced replacement speakers and prepared a check run on all surrounds to identify those with defect woofers. That wasn't as easy as I thought because they were wired in parallel in a wall box and it wasn't easy to get access to all individual speakers with test signals.

Simply listening from the auditorium would not reveal the problem with individual speakers because the adjacent working speakers would mask the missing low frequency at lower levels, and localization was nearly impossible when the rattling occured at higher levels.

We then actually resorted to placing an amp in the auditorium with a long speaker cable and wiring every speaker individually from a ladder with the test signals and listening from close. We were again puzzled to find out that from 10 surround speakers, only three had their woofers still working!

We replaced all those defective woofers, but never learned for how long we were already running with such a mediocre setup. Nobody could remember the rattling to have occured ever during screenings before. Either all those defects occurred during the digital installation due to a wiring or amp error. Or the 35mm DD mixes never carried enough low frequency level to trigger it.

Whatever - we were running this 7.1 setup then for over a year without any issues.
Recently I noticed during a regular maintenance check that all RS speakers were dead. I rewired inputs and outputs of the 4ch amp and it turns out the fourth channel of that amp is dead. At the same time I noticed that one of the LS speakers also was not working (all wired in parallel now). I climbed up the ladder and found the + wire had slipped out of the clamp...

Heck, and again I had no idea for how long this was already going on. Usually during 5.1 presentations, the BSR speakers would back up the missing RS, and one of three/five missing LS/BSL did probably not cause to much irritation anyway .

Harold, if you are looking for a future USL product, a simple way to check/rewire parallel/series wired surround arrays would really help to conduct more frequent equipment checks. We never had issues checking front systems and subwoofer, but these issues with the surrounds really struck me. I am not on-site daily, but often enough to be able to notice that kind of problem early.

Pre-digital, we had two identical issues with our front L/R system's crossover, had to resolder the circuit board to get the HF back.

Other than that, we had a few issues of ordered DCPs arriving, but not their KDMs, and always asked myself what kind of system these distributors operate that allows drives to be ordered, but missing out KDMs for them.

We have reoccurring issues with pre-show content associated with the general use computer this is running from.

We never experienced any DCI/sound equipment failure, never missed a single automation cue (all GPIO wired). A few ingest drives had issues, but we never had lost shows due to that.

We did lose a show due to a bad processing board in our Sony, but it was replaced within one day even though we were not on a support contract.

A lot of CPLs/packages are named badly wrong against DCNC.

Trailers are still mixed too loud, but with playlist based volume control this is no big deal, we play trailers at 4.5 and features at 5.5 to 6.

BluRays and DVDs are still a nightmare to be presented by 'ordinary' staff properly. But I'd say this is a training issue, if we'd do it more often, they would get used to it.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 09-12-2014, 04:27 PM:

quote:
biggest problem with digital cinema:
The 35mm projectors are gone!

I just don't understand a lot of these Theater owners
taking their 35mm Projectors/Equipment to the Dump. I know when a person is strapped for space that can become an issue; but it just boggles my mind that you would take a perfectly good running projection system to a Landfill. I'm sure their are private home collectors that would of gladly taken the equipment off their hands. Just like our local drive-in here; as soon as the Digital Equipment arrived; off went the perfectly good running CENTURY Equipment to the Dump.I would have taken that Stuff in a second if I had known what he was going to do.

I guess maybe I'm from the generation that you don't throw perfectly good running things in the Trash just because they have been superceded by something newer or higher Tech. When the FORD Model A came out, I don't think too many Model T owner's took their less superior T's to the Dump. There are still 1000's of 35mm Films out there; I don't see them all getting chopped up or destroyed. Before you throw your perfectly good 35mm Projectors in the Garbage you might want to make a Phone call or two and find someone that really wants/cares to have this valuable equipment...

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-12-2014, 04:54 PM:

I was appalled when I found they scrapped all our equipment. 8 year old Strong Super Hilite II/Simplex Apogee/Strong AP3 combos. 8 YEARS OLD. 10 setups.

Upon the conversion, I had very painstakingly and meticulously folded up all the platter stands, stacking them very neatly with all the projectors lined up out of the way at the end of the booth. It took me days. I had planned on purchasing at least one full set up at some point in time when they wanted to get rid of them.

They sat there for a year or so, until Regal came along, and one day I came in for my shift and my boss snidely says "Did you get an empty feeling when you went upstairs?" I hadn't been up there yet but knew instantly what he was talking about.

He detailed the crew that came in, literally ripping everything apart; doors off the projectors, rectifiers out, heads off, platter stands apart, throwing everything into a box truck for scrap. There was shards, bolts, washers, etc strewn all about. I was literally heartbroken. WHYYYYY!??! I had threaded that eq daily for 5 years!! I'm still very upset about it. I could've used them at the other theater I worked at too. I would've bought all of them. But instead, they're soda cans now.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-12-2014, 05:06 PM:

Many companies have policies that don't allow written off equipment to be sold or given away, it has to be scrapped and actually destroyed. The reason is simple: This equipment could still be usable for the competition.

Now in this particular case, there would've been almost no use for any competitor, but that doesn't make a policy go away.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-12-2014, 05:10 PM:

Oh I know. Makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-12-2014, 06:03 PM:

I would agree with the lamp installed improperly, or not aligned. I have seen many that they never tightedend down the connectors, and depending on the size of the lamp, it arced and burnt up the connector.

Staff running projectors, even though there are errors, and not reporting them, because they were able to keep it running (overheat errors), until they have nearly fried the projector.

Missing channels on sound - most companies service contracts don't cover sound, and 35mm contracts used too. They have no one to check it anymore, so there is no one reporting it until the center has gone out. I have gone into theaters that have reported sound problems to find that only one channel was working. The rest had blown one by one for various reasons.

Destroyed reflectors, many companies are taking their chances with pushing bulbs beyond their warranties, and I am seeing an increase in reflector replacements. Now I don't know if that's what they report to the bulb companies, as I don't think any of the bulb companies ask for logs, yet . . .

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-12-2014, 06:47 PM:

Most common problem: Lamps installed wrong and image hot spots or is dim. Common with all manufacturers equipment. The openings on the positive metal anode of the Ushio DXL-20SN#'s allow more so for improper placement on the front fork.

My most common phone calls...

1. Can you remote in and reset our lamp hours? I just changed the lamp.

2. Why does the lamp come on when I boot up the projector? (NEC Only) NEC needs a button in DCC to be able to shut this stupid feature off!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. Picture does not line up perfectly on the screen the way it was when you left. Since we can cut the image size to the pixel now any expansion and contraction of the theater building is gonna show up as off set in some direction on screen. ALL buildings expand and contract with temperature change and the seasons. This generally wasn't a problem with 35mm where you had a little slop around the image. My replay is always you need to do normal maintenance done on the equipment.

My most common personal complaint:

People that "THINK" they can work on this equipment and try to!

Otherwise my booths, all 223 of them have been uber reliable. And Harold, They are ALL equipped with USL processors... A few JSD-80 hold overs from 35mm days, lots of JSD-100's and JSD-60's... Not a single failure ever.

Mark

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 09-12-2014, 06:49 PM:

To date the biggest issue we've had with digital cinema is the occasional problem with content not being delivered in a timely manner. But this really is no different than with film - especially when opening something off the break.

We are about 4 years into having digital at my theatre and currently I would say the actual problems we've experienced have been no worse than the expected number of problems over a similar period with film. Typically with 35mm we would have issues related to diode failure or some kind of platter issues. With digital we've had to replace a fan and a lens control card.

We've also had some speaker issues, and we had a CP750 power supply fail. But those issues would have happened with film or digital.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-12-2014, 06:56 PM:

Oh, another personal "bitch" of mine... People that are leaving that train the new incoming people. The people leaving never really did the job quite right so that poor operating format continues on for ever. By the time you get four people down the line in a few years no one has a friggen clue any more. Only technical people should train theater people on operating the equipment!!!

Mark

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-12-2014, 08:49 PM:

In 4 years/3 months of digital operation, seems like about 90% of problems we've had have come from operator error. (The "pink screen" 3-D thing, for example.) Now that I'm dialed in on how the machinery actually works, problems are extremely rare.

I can see why poor bulb alignment is a problem. At least on the NEC it's a time consuming process. If I was a teenage booth operator I would get extremely bored very rapidly with tweaking those settings. I'll bet a lot of bulbs just get put in and not aligned -- if it lights up, it's good to go.

The only things we've had "go wrong" are:

Two RAID hard drive failures on the server. In both cases, GDC replaced all three drives free, even after the warranty period.

One bulb. It just failed to light one night. Still looked fine and didn't throw any errors --- it just wouldn't come on. Put in the spare bulb and all OK. (Ushio bulb)

One NEC power switch, which has been well documented here...so now we don't use that switch anymore. If we power down the machine we use the UPS switch.

As far as "throwing out" the 35mm equipment...we left it in place over 3 years, and having never even turned it on, we finally hauled it all behind the screen, so it's back there waiting to be reused some day -- which I'm sure it never will. When we installed that equipment in 1980, we hauled all the previous equipment back there too, figuring somebody might want it for parts, or it might be needed somewhere, or our shiny new machine might quit and we could use a spare... nope, it just sat back there and gathered dust and it's still back there, now with 34 years of dust accumulation (which in this theater is A LOT of dust). 2 Motiograph heads and two Ashcraft (I think?) lamphouses, now joined by a Simplex projector and soundhead and a Christie console and platter.

Posted by Steve Matz (Member # 1890) on 09-12-2014, 09:27 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
As far as "throwing out" the 35mm equipment...we left it in place over 3 years, and having never even turned it on, we finally hauled it all behind the screen, so it's back there waiting to be reused some day -- which I'm sure it never will. When we installed that equipment in 1980, we hauled all the previous equipment back there too, figuring somebody might want it for parts, or it might be needed somewhere, or our shiny new machine might quit and we could use a spare... nope, it just sat back there and gathered dust and it's still back there, now with 34 years of dust accumulation (which in this theater is A LOT of dust). 2 Motiograph heads and two Ashcraft (I think?) lamphouses, now joined by a Simplex projector and soundhead and a Christie console and platter.

Well I at least Congratulate you for not taking the Equipment to a Landfill or Pacific Hide and Fur(Blgs) I would think the MOTIO AA's would be wanted by some collectors...

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 09-13-2014, 12:36 AM:

quote: Frank Cox
How in the world do you steal speakers from a theatre without someone noticing?

Well, Frank, since you asked - -
I remember back in the late 70's, when they were turning a lot of big, old, single
screen movie theaters into 2, 3 or even 4 screen "mulitplexes" there was a theater
out on Long Island (NY) where I was living at the time that was just about
to re-open after being converted from a single to a multi-screen.

They took out a lot of advertisements in the local papers, and in particular, they
made a big deal out of their new sound systems. (Remember, Dolby optical stereo
was "a big deal" back then.) Soooo- - the night before the theatre's grand
opening, somebody broke into the largest auditorium overnight, and removed all
the surround & stage speakers- - taking the latter by cutting holes in the
(new) screen to get them out. I remember how pissed their head tech was.

He wasn't too upset about the speaker theft- - those could easily be
replaced almost overnight. But he was really pissed at loosing the screen,
since it was a custom size, and not only that- - but had the thieves broken
in through the old stage door, instead of through an auditorium door that opened
into the same alley, they could have easily carried the speakers out that way,
leaving the screen intact.

Several nearby business owners saw the thieves in action, but they didn't think
too much of it at the time since there had been a lot of last minute overnight
work going on at the theater for several weeks. SO they didn't think it was
anything suspicious. I know they did get a good description of the van the
thieves were using, but I don't recall if they ever made any arrests.

So, in answer to your question- - that's one way thieves could steal speakers
right out of a theater without being noticed. I suppose there are others. . .

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-13-2014, 12:44 AM:

Issue that has never been mentioned is content, during playback, either skipping, stuttering and/or heading to a solid freeze.

A full system reboot is in order to clear out this issue.

"Hey, it's a computer - a washing machine/dishwasher - a kitchen appliance! "

Simple method to eliminate, or at least reduce this problem is weekly full system reboots of both projector and server, if these units have to remain on 24/7/365 due to log pulls by the DCI police.

Stuff like this never happened when film was king.

But, in all due honesty: when film was around, the owners had control of their operation. Now, it seems that after digital installs, so much red tape has to be in place to have such a setup - mainly enforced by the DCI police.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-13-2014, 01:04 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
content, during playback, either skipping, stuttering and/or heading to a solid freeze.

We've had that happen two times, both due to the hard drive failures I mentioned in my post.

We had one other movie ("Red Tails") which inexplicably, at a certain spot about 12:00 into the movie, would kick the playback back to the beginning of the program -- not the feature, but the whole program, trailers and all. I tried it playing the movie from the server and from the shipping drive itself, with the same problem both times. Corrupted file, no doubt, and not enough time to ship in a new one -- so we put up an "apology" sign at the boxoffice, and at the appointed time, I would pause the projector, skip ahead about 30 seconds and resume.

You can't say this kind of thing didn't happen with film...the results were just different. There would be the occasional "solid freeze" in the film days but those always led to that wonderful old "melting film" image that we all know and love/hate!

quote: Monte L Fullmer
these units have to remain on 24/7/365 due to log pulls by the DCI police

I think you mean the VPF police, don't you? We're not on a VPF program so our projector isn't connected to the net and nobody has ever asked for a log.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-13-2014, 02:05 AM:

True, the "VPF" police.

It's the DCI suits that sets the strict standards of the DCP presentations...about as bad back in the THX certification days where all has to match a certain standard for the THX brass to give you a certification to present their name.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-13-2014, 07:54 AM:

Hey, a presentation standard, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea actually [Wink]

.

But the VPF police doesn't care about quality, all they care about is the number of shows you played.

One of the problems I often encounter with DCI is bad RGB convergence. Sometimes it's really bad, giving everything a clear red, blue and green outline... With a new install, this usually isn't such a big problem, but after some time, the alignment slowly starts to slip and is often not being taken care of. It's also not something being adjusted by a push on a button, in practically all cases, you need to get "under the hood" of the projector to fix it. It's not really that hard, but obviously too time consuming for many operators...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-13-2014, 09:02 AM:

Oh, yes, that IS right Marcel. I have seen so many older DLP installs now with really bad convergence. One premium house nearby has a dual 4k 3D setup. Sometimes during road shows they operate both projectors separately for different presentations - PowerPoint on one, DCP on the other. Now for well over a year, one machine was very soft, while the other had a strong red/green convergence problem. And they are running Dolby 3D. Just imagine, what a bad red/green convergence does to a Dolby 3D presentation...

It seems that some light engines have problems to keep RGB convergence over longer periods of time. I understand that perfect mechanical convergence can never be set once forever, as the temperature changes will always play within those small dimensions.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-13-2014, 09:11 AM:

quote: Joe Elliott
Staff running projectors, even though there are errors, and not reporting them, because they were able to keep it running (overheat errors), until they have nearly fried the projector.

I quote that too. The more user friendly the projectors are (warnings and status lights) the more the warnings are ignored unless the projector catches fire.

I once serviced a Barco to find the filters so clogged I could not vacuum them - had to wash them.

"How often do you clean the filters?"
"What filters?"
"Didn't you see the blue light on the back?"
"Yes. It's always been blue, doesn't that mean that all is good?"

So let's say that 99% of issues are 'staff not being trained'.

quote: Joe Elliott
Missing channels on sound - most companies service contracts don't cover sound, and 35mm contracts used too. They have no one to check it anymore, so there is no one reporting it until the center has gone out. I have gone into theaters that have reported sound problems to find that only one channel was working. The rest had blown one by one for various reasons.

I'll second that too.
It's usually the company itself that don't want the service company to do the sound.
And despite being massively easy to check the sound in the auditorium (Dolby 5.1 channel ID would suffice), nobody ever does it, until the centre channel dies.

That said, I know a place who run the auditorium without MF on centre channel (and many others missing components on other channels) without realising that.

Even though there was a device that automatically checked the auditorium for them (and USL make one), that would be ignored anyway unless fire would come out of the projector.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-13-2014, 01:35 PM:

We just so happen to be down a screen right now. We'll loose at least 2 shows, if not more, on this fine Saturday.

Barco DP2000, overheating, coolant/pump issues. This has been the second time on this same projector, on a Saturday the first time too, no less. Gotta love that!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-13-2014, 01:52 PM:

The cooling pump is rated for 5-years. The last DP2000 was released December of 2009...any chance that it is time for a new pump? This stuff will not last forever.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-13-2014, 02:26 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Issue that has never been mentioned is content, during playback, either skipping, stuttering and/or heading to a solid freeze.

No issues for me Monte on that... not even close. That has to be some issue using the SX-3000 with the Barco's.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
True, the "VPF" police.

NO NEED to leave the gear running 24/7 because the playout logs are also stored on the TMS on the raid drive and the "VPF Police" as you call them automatically retrieve it from the TMS once a day via an app called Reporter. As long as your TMS is logged on to the screens being VPF'd then they will be retrieved. Leave the TMS on 24/7 and don't worry about the rest.

Mark

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 09-13-2014, 02:49 PM:

Scope got smaller. By that, I mean it became lower-rez than Flat, which is kinda sad.

Everything else is now called "Flat," which is unhelpful, and just plain stupid.

Subtitle dropouts -- took me a while to figure out what was causing it. Changing to a shielded Ethernet cable resolved the issue. But I'm still nervous when I get a foreign film that doesn't have "baked-in" subtitles.

The local AMC theatre runs everything through their RealD 3D adapter. Yuck.

And, speaking of RealD -- I'm seeing more silver screens. And that means I'm seeing more hot/cold spots. Especially near the edges. This isn't a "digital problem" per se, but it is the result of 3D making a comeback because of d-cinema.

Lt/Rt audio not being decoded, because it's not expected to be on a DCP in the first place. Yet, there it is.

Digital video and digital cinema have made it possible for truly independent product to make it to a cinema. This is both good and bad. The "bad" part is that amateurs can throw together a movie and then get it into a cinema. The expense and technical complexity involved with bringing a 35mm production to a cinema meant there was virtually zero chance of a crappy movie seeing the light of day. Compared to film -- even 16mm -- I've shown way more crappy low-budget movies that were made possible because of digital cinema. Of course, the "good" news is that the day will come when I'll get to inflict my own crappy low-budget indie film onto an unsuspecting public. LOL

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-13-2014, 04:31 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
some issue using the SX-3000 with the Barco's

Would 5600 spin drives in the PDP3000P unit cause this issue?

Posted by Geoff Jones (Member # 3668) on 09-13-2014, 04:41 PM:

What goes wrong in digital cinema?

- Smaller screens
- Shimmery blacks & weak contrast
- Jagged edges
- Poor resolution

[Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-13-2014, 10:38 PM:

Don't know monte...

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-14-2014, 12:18 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The cooling pump is rated for 5-years. The last DP2000 was released December of 2009...any chance that it is time for a new pump? This stuff will not last forever.

He/we ended up replacing the light engine due to a bad green block and bad RGB convergence(I'm not convinced the engine was bad, but I'm not the one paying the bills sooooo....)and couldn't get coolant flowing after the change. Replaced the pump. Still no luck. Primed the pump. Still no luck. Manually primed coolant through the entire system, pushing out air, finally got it pumping.(Not convinced the old pump was even bad either, keeping it around just in case)(The Barco help desk didn't know, nor did the tech, nor did either party find any manual procedure that covered our issues, we were just figuring stuff out on our own as far as the coolant problem went)

Then we properly pressurized the system which had not been done since we got these used in.... 2008?

Then he couldn't get the lens to properly fill the screen and had a heck of a time with that whole thing, currently we're only able to run flat movies until he comes back Monday.(proper common height masking in this house, ~40' wide scope screen)

Reason being "The tolerances are different in this light engine."

Light engine replacement itself was ridiculously easy IN THEORY, being only 4 screws holding the whole assembly in, but that was a whole ordeal in itself. The back suspended card part seemed to be slightly bent on the new unit and we played hell trying to get the screws to line up.

All told, 3 people worked on it non stop for ~7 hours and we are not yet fully resolved, though we are back on screen. Lost all 4 shows today and passed out the late show last night.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-14-2014, 02:14 AM:

I recently did "battle" with a DP2000. The light engine is indeed very easy to remove/replace, as light engines go.

RGB convergence is not a reason for light engine change...one can converge the DP2000. It isn't enjoyable...one has to have VERRRRRRYYYYY LOOOONNNNNGGGG allen drivers (on the order of a foot long...one has to remove secret cover plates to expose some of the red adjustments too. And just when you think you have it...you snug down the formatter board...it moves a little. Then again, that is how most other convergence goes in everyone elses projectors. Barco Series 2 (or the DP100) make convergence easy (particularly if you have the USL VCC-102).

As for pressurizing the system and air pockets. The system definitely wont' tolerate air in it. If it has an air pocket in it...the only way to get things going is to "push" the fluid through until you push the air out....then have it suck/drain into the same vessel (both submerged) until all air bubbles go away in the "refill mode". I've never had a problem with all of that and with the pump working. I do pressurize the system as an indicator of when it was last changed! I dislike the older connectors too as compared to the series 2. The old ones leak when you insert/disconnect. The real reason for pressurizing the system is for inverted use...which nobody does (hence they don't do it anymore) so having it go down to no pressure isn't the end of the world.

I don't get the image sizing issue unless the backfocus of the lens was right at the edge and now the imagers are just a hair different in spacing. In the DP2000, the backfocus is super easy since there is a single plate (rotates) that can set it.

Good luck though. One thing is for sure...as these series 1 projectors continue to age...they are going to get to be real expensive to keep around...and it won't be too long before the series 2 will follow suit.

I think that is the biggest problem with digital cinema (bringing the discussion back around to the topic). The long-term costs associated with Digital cinema. With film, the equipment outlasted the complex. With digital, the shelf life is VERY short. The costs of repairs in DCinema, if they will even repair it (manufacturers now have taken the position that if it is out of warranty...just replace it) are higher than the most expensive failure in a film system. Barco has taken the position that they will not issue all of their parts as parts, you have to get the part you want in an assembly...that may cost substantially more than the part you need. You'd be amazed at what they feel forces you in to needing something like a light engine instead of a relatively low-cost part. With film projectors, you could buy a generic screw from either the manufacturer of the projector or your local hardware store. Now there is no generic anything (well not much, at least).

Servers wont be so bad...while they will fail...the costs of computer stuff seems to continue to either go down or give you more bang for the buck. Mediablocks/IMBs...on the other hand are also failing now and they are NOT CHEAP to replace. I have already retired two servers due to mediablock failures. Though one has been repaired and now is a site spare.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-14-2014, 05:29 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
It's not really that hard, but obviously too time consuming for many operators...

Marcel,
operators are not supposed to do convergence. As Steve said on series 2 and DP3000-style machines it's just a matter of turning some knobs but you will need to access the light engine which then require the projector to be authorised again. And operators are not supposed to do so.

Re. pumps problems, it's as Steve says. I've seen a light engine where the coolant wouldn't circulate, not even when pushing coolant using the syringe. I then found a blockage on a connector: re-seated the connector restored the flow. And as Steve says, to sort out those problematic situations you have to push coolant manually till no air is seen coming out of the circuit. Barco learned from that and the current design is much more reliable - but again the previous was not a mistake, it was put in place to allow the projector to be installed upside down.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 09-14-2014, 12:04 PM:

Steve, like I mentioned, I'm not convinced either that the light engine was even bad. I had asked him about calibrating convergence and he had a similar answer to yours. "It's possible, but a huge pain in the ass"(Not a good answer to me)

I gotta say, I learned a TON yesterday, and am now far less afraid of digital projectors, not that I was overly afraid of them before, just less so now. I got to see just how 'modular' Barco is, and how well my higher vehicular mechanic aptitude translates even to this. It's all just nuts, bolts, and screws still. The software/server etc side leaves a bit of learning to be desired though.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-14-2014, 12:47 PM:

quote: Buck Wilson
The software/server etc side leaves a bit of learning to be desired though.

In all due actuality, this server area is just like a computer: needs to be rebooted (cold boot - pull the plug then plug it back in after a few seconds) from time to time if left on continually.

They pretty well take care of themselves. Projector software updates, which happens quite readily, can be the issue where an experienced and licensed tech comes into the game to score the winning touchdown.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-14-2014, 12:48 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
operators are not supposed to do convergence. As Steve said on series 2 and DP3000-style machines it's just a matter of turning some knobs but you will need to access the light engine which then require the projector to be authorised again. And operators are not supposed to do so.

I know that "operators" aren't supposed to do it, but your integrator/installer/service company pretty much can do it for you. Or if you're sufficiently knowledgeable yourself and aren't under some service contract that forbids you to open the projector enclosure without "adult supervision". But operators don't seem to care, as it often doesn't get fixed for months or even years, since seemingly doesn't find its way to those who service said projectors, if any...

Still, it's nothing that needs a light engine changed, unless something in your light engine is really out of alignment beyond normal calibration.

Bad RGB convergence really hurts your image pretty badly and it should be taken care of and like Carsten already mentioned, it sometimes even happens on machines running Dolby 3D, that's one heck of a mess right there.

If we put blown-out or just dead wrong calibrated sound channels aside, since it's not entirely a digital cinema problem, this would be one of my prime irritations, since it's such a common issue.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 09-14-2014, 01:51 PM:

Of course your service personnel must be capable of aligning convergence on a DLP projector!!

Operators? Besides that there are no operators anymore, I don't know anybody I would trust for such task! [Smile]

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 09-16-2014, 09:07 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
In all due actuality, this server area is just like a computer: needs to be rebooted (cold boot - pull the plug then plug it back in after a few seconds) from time to time if left on continually.

NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE

Since the server is "just like a computer" (maybe that's because it IS a computer), it should be shut down just like a computer. GDC, Doremi, and Sony all have shutdown commands in their GUI, just like Windows, and that is how they should be shut down. (Unfortunately, you do have to pull the plug on a Dolby.)

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-17-2014, 01:53 PM:

True, through each server's GUI's to do the shutdowns, including the SONY units (the only way), and we have a "get-around" with the Dolby's is power cycle the UPS, and that also reboots the CP850, the switch and the Jnior automation since we have these units attached to the UPS.

Then I do the projector reboot to reboot the IMB.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-18-2014, 06:18 AM:

Note, on a Dolby, though not from the GUI, you can issue a <CTL><ALT><F1> to get to the CLI and then <CTL><ALT><DEL> and the server will do a graceful soft reboot. This reboot will NOT help a CAT862 issue but it will reboot the "computer" part of the server.

However, doing a hard reboot (power cycle), remains the best way to restore operation to a hung server/mediablock.

Note too, there is a "power switch" on the Dolby sever behind the decorative faceplate.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-18-2014, 07:23 AM:

Also, you can remotely reboot a server using VNC or SSH. Just doing a hard shutdown or reset is only for the real hard cases where the server doesn't respond to any commands anymore. Even when fixing a mediablock issue, you should first try an OS initiated shutdown, because only this will close all open files in a somewhat orderly fashion, will write the filesystem journals safely to disk and will also do a clean unmount.

And besides switching off your whole UPS and taking all your other equipment with it (note: Even the CP-850 should be given a clean shutdown when possible), you could invest a few bucks in one of these.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-18-2014, 09:23 AM:

I've actually found that the hard reboot to be the more reliable one in most cases. Given the 6:30 reboot time...would you rather do it once or twice?

As for the APC (or other brand) Ethernet controlled power strip...I wish I could find one that responds to normal "serial" type strings instead of the SNMP business.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-18-2014, 11:22 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Note too, there is a "power switch" on the Dolby sever behind the decorative faceplate

Yes, well hidden where they don't want you to use it. Thus, switching the UPS is a good friend to have.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-19-2014, 04:37 AM:

The reason why it's hidden is not because they do not want you to use it, but because it's not needed during normal operation.

quote: Steve Guttag
I've actually found that the hard reboot to be the more reliable one in most cases. Given the 6:30 reboot time...would you rather do it once or twice?

Since the mediablock is a self-contained system, the only way to be certain it will do a proper reload after a crash is to kill the power to it. A "hot reboot" won't do that and even a normal shutdown should kill all power to most of the system (including the mediablock), but only for a short time, as it will enter standby mode later. I'm not certain if this short disruption will be sufficient to reload the mediablock in all cases.

If you unplug it, you're certain that all power (besides that from internal batteries off course) gets killed after a few seconds. The problem is, you can not even do that with the power switch, as the power switch will also bring the system back to standby, just like a proper shutdown would do.

quote: Steve Guttag
As for the APC (or other brand) Ethernet controlled power strip...I wish I could find one that responds to normal "serial" type strings instead of the SNMP business.

That's true... They all come with a CLI, SNMP, web interface and sometimes some kind of XML interface. It's rather hard to automate from your cinema server without any nasty hacks. Although via SNMP (via e.g. a Linux shell) it's rather easy once you figured out the correct OID stuff. You might want to try to use a TCP command that connects to the CLI, but that will probably never work reliable as you first need to log in, wait for a prompt and then send your actual commands. This needs to happen in a single TCP session.

But then again, the situations in which you want to automate the hard shutdown/power on of equipment from within your cinema server are probably rather limited. Those things are great (although still a bit expensive) if you need to do power cycles on stuff that's otherwise hard to unplug or located at a remote site.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-19-2014, 06:29 AM:

I have indeed automated one (Cyberpower brand)...got all of the timing right and such. However...it does create a bit of a delay as one has the automation log-in, go through the menu tree...etc. However, when one is wanting an immediate shut down due to a problem...you don't want something that is taking numerous seconds.

Via the automation we use (eCNA series)...we have switched outlets so we can have power control over the projector, server or whatever else we need. We do use such Ethernet controllable PDUs on things like TMS/LMS were an automation isn't needed but some form of power control is. Note too...most UPS systems do have an Ethernet card that provide similar control. For instance, the Tripplite brand has the SNMPWEB card that works in the SMART and SU series (as well as others) of UPSes. Once installed and configured, you can turn off outlets in banks. Though rather pricey, in my opinion, they also let you have a bit of information on the status of the UPS, allow for automated shutdowns of TMSes before the batteries die...keep track of the battery life and also receive email messages about desired issues.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 09-19-2014, 02:00 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
You might want to try to use a TCP command that connects to the CLI, but that will probably never work reliable as you first need to log in, wait for a prompt and then send your actual commands. This needs to happen in a single TCP session.

expect

I've never used this for anything directly related to my theatre, but it's an all-singing, all-dancing automation tool that will probably do what you want.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-19-2014, 04:40 PM:

Expect, that brings back some memories. I've actually tried to use it once for the purpose of extracting configs from devices. I ended up using Python though, although I don't exactly know why anymore. (And nowadays there's a tool called Rancid that does almost the same and actually uses expect as a library.)

The problem with those tools is to hook it up to your cinema automation, without having to introduce additional hardware or hacks that breaks upon the next software upgrade, especially if you're doing this not for your own business, but for other people's business.

quote: Steve Guttag
I have indeed automated one (Cyberpower brand)...got all of the timing right and such.

Well, you earned some respect [Wink]

. But did you do that over Serial or Ethernet via Telnet? Telnet is close to raw TCP, but there are some pitfalls now and then, especially if you need to send those Telnet control commands.

quote: Steve Guttag
Note too...most UPS systems do have an Ethernet card that provide similar control. For instance, the Tripplite brand has the SNMPWEB card that works in the SMART and SU series (as well as others) of UPSes. Once installed and configured, you can turn off outlets in banks.

Like you already mentioned, they mostly are only switchable in banks and not per outlet. In many cases that might be just fine, but I'm still waiting for a manufacturer to produce an affordable UPS with switchable built-in outlets.

The problem with those "structured power systems" is, that most of them are not universal. Great and affordable stuff that might be available for 110/120V AC is often not available for 230V AC or vice versa.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-20-2014, 12:54 PM:

I did it over Ethernet.

Middle Atlantic Products "Racklink" PDUs will respond to serial (directly) or serial type commands over TCP/IP...however, as PDUs go, they are on the pricey side. Mind you they are more of a complete solution than just a switched outlet...they monitor the environment and can be bit self-contained...even pinging devices on their own and if a device disappears for a period of time to automatically reboot it. We would have to sell them at 2-3 times the price of other solutions, however.