quote: Carsten Kurz

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Polarization works with laser projectors (even with the new 6P machines), but the benefit of using spectral separation is just higher. I think the first Kodak 'near-ready' laserprojector was built to use polarization.

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quote: Dave Macaulay was the last to post

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No.

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quote:

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Funny, only when you read the article in CTM about the Barco DP4K-60L projector, you will learn that it DOES include the laser light sources and seemingly offers a one-box package - but then you notice six(SIX!) thick cooling tubes running to a huge cooling rack in the background. So, after all, the needed real estate is similar to the Christie 6P solution with the remote fiber coupled laser rack - just that the 'tubes' leading to the projector head(s) are a lot thinner ;-)

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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when you read the article in CTM about the Barco DP4K-60L projector, you will learn that it DOES include the laser light sources and seemingly offers a one-box package

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Yeah, the Barco DP4K-60L also uses external light sources.

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quote:

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the DP4K-60L features a fully integrated system with unified laser light sources that are housed inside the projector, ensuring high durability and system efficiency.

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(Barco)


 

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Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 12-23-2014, 08:54 AM:
 
Of note IMAX had been testing the new Laser projection system at the closed Cinesphere in Toronto over the last year. Interested to see what kind of images it will produce.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-23-2014, 11:33 AM:
 
Cinema Technology magazine is now available on the MPS website from which trailers and some KDMs are downloaded here in the UK. Don't know if it is available elsewhere in the world.
 

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Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 12-23-2014, 11:45 AM:
 

quote: Paul Gordon

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Of note IMAX had been testing the new Laser projection system at the closed Cinesphere in Toronto over the last year.

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So I guess IMAX had the first laser installation?
 

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Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 12-23-2014, 11:51 AM:
 

quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Yeah, the Barco DP4K-60L also uses external light sources. Having seen both the current Barco and Christie laser projectors, I don't understand why the Barco machine is such a bulky beast, given the fact that both use external light sources fed trough fibers.

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quote: Paul Gordon

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Of note IMAX had been testing the new Laser projection system at the closed Cinesphere in Toronto over the last year.

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So I guess IMAX had the first laser installation?

quote: Paul Gordon

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Interested to see what kind of images it will produce.

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If you are in the Toronto area you can see for yourself (and hear for yourself ), the Scotiabank now has it installed. There is an IMAX engineer at the facility doing tests during my screening. There is a lot of Dolby technology used for this system. Also, there is some Dolby advertising included with the IMAX branding.


 

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 12-24-2014, 07:27 PM:
 
The IMAX laser projection system uses the Kodak technology, with 3 laser primaries feeding the 3 DMDs. The other laser systems I have heard much about combine the primaries into "white" light and feed that into a relatively normal light engine.
It is a 6P 3D system, using Dolby style glasses. Extinction looks better than normal Dolby 3D: possibly because the colours are pure single wavelength rather than band filtered white light?
 

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Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 12-25-2014, 11:45 AM:
 
Dave, have you had a chance to see (or hear) a demo of the new IMAX laser set-up at the Scotiabank in Toronto?
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-25-2014, 05:00 PM:
 

quote: Kris Verhanneman

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The DP4K-60L doesn't use external light sources. It are just a few tubes to cool down the lasers. The fridge and projector arn't even noisy.

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Thanks for the clarification, it explains a lot. It's a little confusing, because there are exactly three tubes if I remember correctly. I didn't know the big box was just a chiller and not the RGB light sources themselves, but this explains the bulkiness of the DP4K-60L.

P.S.: I guess Barco must be somewhat disappointed you went for Atmos for your Ultra concept rather than Auro 3D .
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-26-2014, 01:06 PM:
 
Actually there are six tubes to/from the chiller. And yes, it does look very much like the Christie solution at first until you notice these six tubes can not be fibres.

I heard some basic numbers for these projection systems now - close to 500.000US$ for the Christie (dual projector head), around 350.000 for the Barco.

I assume the basic light output of these machines is about the same, around 60.000-70.000 lumens, but the Christie can output this luminous flux simultaneously from both projector heads, practically doubling it for 3D applications?

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens was the last to post

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So I guess IMAX had the first laser installation?

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quote: Carsten Kurz

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Actually there are six tubes to/from the chiller. And yes, it does look very much like the Christie solution at first until you notice these six tubes can not be fibres.

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Which makes sense too, because you really want to circulate your cooling liquid I guess .

quote: Carsten Kurz

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I assume the basic light output of these machines is about the same, around 60.000-70.000 lumens, but the Christie can output this luminous flux simultaneously from both projector heads, practically doubling it for 3D applications?

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I've not yet seen a 3D movie in production on the Barco machine. I've seen 3D content on a demo setup, but the brightness didn't really blow me away. I will give the Kinepolis setup in Antwerpen or Brussels a try shortly, so I can do my own rather subjective comparisons.

The Christie Dual 3D setup is the first production setup which I've seen which will really deliver 3D at the brightness of 2D on a large screen.

Additionally, the wider color gamut pictures look really great, but not cinematic at all. Maybe it's the ideal platform for computer games on giant screens .
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-26-2014, 07:24 PM:
 
Is that screen size documented?

When I consider my own numbers from above - a common Barco DP4k-32B delivers 30.000+ lumens. The DP4k-60L delivers 60.000 lumens. The 6p/Dolby 3D efficiency is about the same as that of a RealD XL system, around 23-25%. That means, a single DP4k-60L lumenwise replaces a twin-DP4k-32B stack with RealD/silver screen (at three times the price - not including bulb cost).

But a dual DP4k-32B is not uncommon for large screen installations.
Yes - no silver screen necessary, no hot spot, better stereo separation, sllghtly higher overall contrast. But not really a breakthrough from a cinemagoer's perspective. The DP4k-60L ENABLES Dolby 3D for large screens, but it can not keep the '14fL Dolby 3D promise' for these screens, only for medium size screens.

While the Christie solution costs considerably more, I assume it would result in a significant increase in 3D brightness. Don't know if Barco is ready for stacked operation of two DP4k-60L. And the cost, wow...you can burn a lot of 7kW bulbs for that upcharge.

Really wondering what the IMAX solution looks like - it's designed to fill the largest IMAX screens. How many lumens would you need to accomplish this, and in 3D with 25% efficiency? And in how far will Barcos IMAX solution be different from their own general market DP4k-60L?

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-27-2014, 05:06 AM:
 

quote: Carsten Kurz

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Is that screen size documented?

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My direct comparison would be JT Kerkrade against the Dolby Cinema setup in Eindhoven.

Auditorium 1 JT Kerkrade (XD PLF concept):
2 x Barco DP4K-32B
Circular polarized 3D using a silver screen
Roughly 24x10m ~ 240 sqm

Auditorium 6 JT Eindhoven (Dolby Cinema):
Christie 6P dual projector setup
Dolby 3D
Roughly 20x12m ~ 240 sqm

For the record, both screens feature Dolby Atmos.

Obviously, the screen in Kerkrade is a scope screen, so it loses some light if fully covered and has a smaller surface than the screen in Eindhoven for features presented in flat.

I’ve not seen the new Kinepolis setup using the single a DP4K-60L for 3D presentations.

The screen in Kerkrade is sufficiently bright for standard 2D presentations, but nothing to write home about. There is some hotspotting, but you need to look for it to see it. There are some reflections of exit lights on the screen, which are more troublesome.

For 3D presentations, the brightness is just acceptable and really not that great. It’s the best you can do with conventional Xenon bulbs or you need to add another two projectors to the setup, which will cause you quite some headaches, as Barco doesn’t currently offer a seamless convergence solution for their DCI gear.

Also, there’s always some noticeable crosstalk, especially in the ever-present subtitling.

The Dolby Cinema setup has already a few advantages built into the design of the auditorium. The dark, paneled walls, the plain white screen and the almost complete absence of other ambient light bouncing off the screen will create a larger contrast to begin with. So, the comparison might be an objective one, based on all factors, but still the difference for 3D is night and day, compared to the setup in Kerkrade. For 2D, it’s not really that obvious. The picture surely is bright, but nothing you couldn’t recreate on a somewhat smaller screen using a powerful projector like the DP4K-32B.

The Kinepolis screens in Brussels and Antwerpen are both about 23x10m, so a comparison would be based on roughly the same screen sizes.

Comparisons are obviously subjective, but in the end the perceptions of the average visitor is the thing that counts most.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-27-2014, 05:06 AM:
 
I was told that Dolby 3D on 6P lasers is "close to the physical limitation of 3D" which is 50%. I was not given a real world figure though. Where did you take your numbers?

A dual projector system is not practical for the real-world installations. The tweaks it requires and the maintenance required makes it suitable for special venues only - IMHO.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-27-2014, 09:00 AM:
 
For 3D, real-world is no big deal with dual projector. If the images are not in precise alignment it doesn't really matter that much

For 2D, it matters greatly since any misalignment comes off of resolution and eventually appears as a double-image. However, if you check out the Christie Duo system in person...it can auto-align and it is impressive, to say the least. It can maintain corner-to-corner alignment rather well. So if you need the light, even with xenon, it is a viable real-world system. Naturally, you'll be spending a bit more on your projection set up...however, one presumes that you have sufficiently large auditorium to justify having a dual projection system in the first place.

As for the concept of mere dual projection in a 2D environment...we have theatres doing that due to poor design/lack of concern by the theatre all of the time with Real-D theatres. Most are aware that most Sony systems with Real-D leave their 3D lens in. Real-D XL in the DLP theatres also is putting out a dual image in 2D and the alignment is far worse than most people think from corner-to-corner. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to get them as good as possible but one rarely gets it dead on. I suggest using a dense cross pattern like NEC's 8-bit cross...that has a pretty decent grid that will let you see how you are doing on magnification.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-27-2014, 03:29 PM:
 
Two projectors require two lamps, and two maintenance schedules. In a world where changing a lamp can be a challenge and mis-installed lamps happen daily, that is a problem.
I am not familiar with the Christie Duo though, so I'm assuming that converging the projectors is not a problem. But does it do it automatically or does it require any human action? In the latter, even though it's just pressing a button then it's out of the question.

After all, the RealD XL unit could be moved away in less than 2 seconds but as Steve points out it is seldom done by theatres.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-27-2014, 04:00 PM:
 
Again...presuming one is considering a dual projector system...the screen in question is probably sufficiently large to make it worth while. Naturally, it isn't the solution for all screens. A hope of laser technology is the ability to use a single laser projector for most large cinemas. The dual-projector thing is normally for very large screens, particularly with 3D. A format that I, personally, hope continues to die away. The numbers I recently saw at a local theatre show that it is making less money and definitely drawing fewer patrons than 2D...by a very significant amount (drawing less than 20% of the 2D shows)

As for Christie...the lamp alignment is second to none...it does a VERY good job and the duo convergence is not something I've had to work with...just seen it demonstrated...it was spooky good. Note...if one needs to realign it on any sort of regular schedule...if your theatre is too pathetic to have someone reliably do that with a push of a button...then automate it...that wouldn't be rocket science either.

Don't be so fast to condemn something you haven't personally worked with as not real-world worthy just because it may not work in your world. We definitely have the technology at our access in this day and age to minimize, if not eliminate, most human involvement in repetitive tasks.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-27-2014, 04:22 PM:
 

quote: Marco Giustini

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After all, the RealD XL unit could be moved away in less than 2 seconds but as Steve points out it is seldom done by theatres.

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quote: Marco Giustini

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I am not familiar with the Christie Duo though, so I'm assuming that converging the projectors is not a problem. But does it do it automatically or does it require any human action? In the latter, even though it's just pressing a button then it's out of the question.

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quote: Marco Giustini

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I was told that Dolby 3D on 6P lasers is "close to the physical limitation of 3D" which is 50%. I was not given a real world figure though. Where did you take your numbers?

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I took these numbers from a current Barco Whitepaper on their laser technology.

http://www.barco.com/~/media/Downloads/Presentation/NAB14_BARCO%20pdf.pdf

Also the general energy efficiency is not SO much better than for Xenon. Don't know if they even include the power needed for the chillers into their calculation. Okay, this is their first commercial laser product, so they may be able to improve that later.

While the Christie solution is similiar, so far I haven't seen any Dolby 3D branding for the Christie 3D setup. It seems to me that laser based 6P spectral separation is not covered by the existing Infitec patents/Dolby license. So it may be that Christie can do without Dolby. The Christie Duo solution does near-perfect automatic alignment. Aside from the mirror, it is a bit similar to the IMAX automatic alignment system. You need both projectors to have a Christie IMS/IMB installed though, as part of the alignment takes part in the image processing part of the IMS (as in the IMAX raster processor).

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-28-2014, 10:49 AM:
 
I did understand you and while you can certainly point to theatres around you that won't move a Real-D XL out of the way...I can point to many, many that will and others that have purchased some form of automatic mover to ensure that the task gets done. Likewise on the Christie LampLOC. Remember, I have "real-world" theatres too...they are not all screening rooms and special venues.

I took the comment regarding Sony's 2D/3D thing to mean that it wasn't just the polarizers but the physical 3D versus 2D lens itself...hence the convergence realignment once the dual lens is reinstalled. That the comment was not directed towards a convention RealD-XL.
 

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Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 12-28-2014, 06:28 PM:
 
I honestly hope you are right and I am getting a little too pessimistic - honestly. There are lessen and lessen cinemas/theatres doing "film" right nowadays. Every now and then I think of one where I would like to pay and watch a film myself and I usually struggle to come up with a place.

2D/3D: I didn't realise we were talking about Sony? If the subject was Sony, convergence does not really matter too much. If the cinema cares enough to swap the lens - with the 515 and lens changing table it is in fact quite easy - when the 3D lens is in, it means the cinema is showing 3D. And as Steve pointed out, alignment with 3D content is not critical.

But I still have on my mind this 'projectionist' saying 'we can't be bothered swapping lens, we just put a 3D cue and it's ok'.

Again: I honestly hope I'm just getting too old and too pessimistic
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-28-2014, 06:56 PM:
 

quote: Marco Giustini

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Marcel, the XL convergence will NOT change when the unit is moved in and out - unless you slam it to the stops! It is a 5 seconds job but if you don't have personnel available, you can't risk to start the next 3D show with no 3D. As you point out mixing 2D/3D shows does not help.

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