Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Next generation IMAX sound system detailed

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Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 08-29-2014, 01:01 PM:

I found this over at home theater forums, not sure how true this is but here is the link Next Gen IMAX Sound System

I have been wondering where I should post this information, I looked at a few sites (blu-ray.com etc) and personally chose this site. This would be my first post. Certain information is purposely omitted.

I have personally seen the new IMAX sound system installed in a multiplex IMAX, (note: the theater is NOT a classic built GT/SR IMAX location), why and how I saw the sound system is irrelvant as I will not be giving away that information. Everyone who is familiar with the IMAX Digital multiplex (MPX for short) knows that there are three speakers behind the screen, two full range speakers in the each rear corner of the theater, and a subwoofer behind the screen. The new sound system is a 12 channel system.

Additions to the already existing IMAX set up include:

Two side speakers on the left and right side of the auditorium. The speaker will be held on a metal hanging stand, (the speaker will not be positioned on the wall), the speakers are about 1.5 foot X 1.75 foot in size. The speaker is customed built by IMAX and will have the IMAX logo in the middle on the bottom of the front. The grille in front of the speaker is made of metal mesh that will wrap around 1.45 inches on all four sides. You will be able to see the screws that hold the speakers in place. Four overhead speakers, each speaker is appox 2 foot X 2 foot and will be positioned flush with ceiling tiles on the roof. The front overhead speakers will have a slight curve/wrap to the front of the grille that helps it point towards the first 7-9 rows of the audience. The rear overhead speakers will also be approx 2 foot by 2 foot and will also have a slight curve (although less pronounced) pointed towards the rear 7 rows of the audience. Like the side speakers, there will be a metal mesh grille with the IMAX logo on the speaker.

Channel additions include:

OFL
OFR
ORL
OFR
VOG (Voice of God)
Side left
Sife right

Existing channels are:

SL
SC
SR
Surround LC
Surround RC
Subwoofer

I cannot yet confirm a few things:

1. Is the VOG overhead for all four speakers?
2. Are the OFL, OFR, ORL, ORR independent channels or one voice of god channel?
3. Are there any speaker additions behind the screen?
4. I cannot confirm if GT/SR locations will have larger customer built speakers to compensate for the larger/higher auditoriums. 5. Will GT/SR location have the speakers hanging down from the ceiling vs the in ceiling set up in a mulitplex.

If the new four overhead speakers are in fact one channel, it is posibble (more than likely) that there are addition screen speakers behind the screen. I cannot confirm either or.

The new sound system is open to all IMAX customers which include GT/SR and MPX customers.

The look to the set up is rather elegant and the customer will notice the speakers when they enter an IMAX auditorium.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-29-2014, 03:00 PM:

I'd be happy if their existing sound systems sounded right

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 08-29-2014, 03:25 PM:

That's probably the most detailed description ever that doesn't give any actual information. Well, unless Imax fans actually salivate over whether you can see the screws holding the speaker grills in place and other useless details.

He could have done the whole thing in about 1 sentence, such as "They are adding side and ceiling channels, but I don't know if they're adding behind the screen channels."

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-29-2014, 04:34 PM:

Is this the one planned that will cause ear bleed?

Posted by Ron Yost (Member # 1850) on 08-29-2014, 05:39 PM:

I don't think this is serious. ...1.45" wraparound on the grill. You will be able to see the screws!!!... etc. (The entire thing about the new side speakers should be a clue, IMO.)

C'mon, the guy has 1 post! He's a troll. Hanging on a metal stand, no doubt. [Big Grin]

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 08-31-2014, 03:57 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Is this the one planned that will cause ear bleed?

The current system already does that. Have you seen a movie in IMAX recently? Most IMAX auditoriums have partnered with Bonfils Blood Center to provide tubes that connect directly to the ear to collect the blood caused by poorly tuned sound.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-31-2014, 08:28 AM:

I wrote about this four months ago:

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f14/t000258.html

Terrys quote shows the same speaker layout as Barcos Auro 11.1 system.

http://www.barco.com/~/media/Downloads/White%20papers/2011/Auro%2011-1%20-%20A%20new%20dimension%20in%20cinema%20sound.pd f?

Barco supplies their Alchemy servers/IMS to IMAX cinemas with the new LIP systems, because the Alchemy server currently is the only one capable to control Barcos LIPs and deliver 4k in HFR.

It would be natural to use Auro for IMAX as Barcos servers support it AND the format is compatible with all previous 5.1 IMAX locations without the need for a dedicated sound mix/format. They could upgrade slowly one by one without major disruptions.

Currently, IMAX digital theaters use DOREMI servers, which support Auro 3D decoding as well - thus it would be easy to upgrade the sound systems of existing IMAX theaters to 11.1 without going the expensive LIP route.

Another option would be to downmix/transcode Auro encoded 5.1/11.1 mixes to a standard LPCM DCI 16ch mix, so they would have all the 11.1 audio from the Auro audio mix, but not in the Auro technical encoding format. That way, previous IMAX locations could even further use their Doremis without LIP, but WITH the 11.1 speaker layout, just in case Dolby drops Auro support from the Doremi servers now that they own Doremi...

One thing is sure - IMAX needs to implement a higher level (err.., forgive the pun... higher channel count...) sound system as a competitive measure now that other chains advertise their own sound branding or Auro/Atmos.

BUT - If IMAX would implement their own 5.1+ sound system (be it channel or object based) - they would need to do their own multichannel sound mixes for all IMAX major releases. That is quite unlikely to happen, given the time constraints prior to world wide launch dates.

The studios themselves would not do another 5.1+ sound format just for IMAX - they are already complaining about the needed efforts to supply 5.1 + 7.1 + Auro + ATMOS + HI/VI...

I also doubt they would hand out the raw tracks of a feature sound mix close to release-time for IMAX to do their own multichannel mix. It doesn't work that way.

Doing a DMR or reframing for IMAX native AR is a piece of cake compared to a full soundmix for a proprietary 5.1+ sound system. And I doubt IMAX will base their new sound system on simple upmixing of 5.1 tracks only.

However, the studios would be happy to supply an Auro 11.1 mix for all conventional Auro 3D equipped theaters that would work in IMAX (be they 11.1 or 5.1 equipped) theaters as well. IMAX could then still do their usual boosts and tweaks on an otherwise finished 11.1 audio master mix.

All said, makes an awful lot of sense to me strategically and techwise...

One issue may be that IMAX will probably not want to have any co-branding with IMAX, that is, they probably do not want to see 'IMAX+Auro 3D' on screen or posters. But they could have a special deal with Barco about this, and I think Auro Technologies would like to have that increased market acceptance as well in the ongoing Auro<->Atmos fight, even if the deal potentially lacks regular branding obligations.

- Carsten

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 09-01-2014, 03:08 AM:

Carsten, it looks like you were spot on with the Barco Auro/IMAX partnership (assuming that the information is true), it only makes sense that IMAX would go this route. Although I don't think the IMAX set up will be identical to a Auro set up.

I also firmly believe there is going to be a branding change for the IMAX laser/auro set up. There has to be some reason for existing IMAX venues to want to upgrade their equipment, from what I understand, a majority of revenue shared IMAX locations do not have to pay for their current set up (or not the full cost at least), IMAX could go the route whereas if a theater upgrades, IMAX will install the new projection/sound equipment and absorb the cost as long as there is a early renewal to their existing 10 year IMAX commitment. I think IMAX Ultra (just a guess) is the name for laser equipped venues.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-01-2014, 06:11 AM:

I think the aspect of a proprietary sound mix is the key factor here - if IMAX want's to implement a new layout, they would never use it just through upmixing existing 5.1 or 7.1 mixes. That means, they need to have native mixes for the new sound system. From my knowledge of audio postproduction for cinema, it is not possible to do your own native multichannel soundmix during the regular postproduction phase. The studios on the other hand will not be able to do another IMAX proprietary sound mix in addition to existing widely used formats 5.1, 7.1, Auro 3D and ATMOS. So, somehow IMAX needs to attach to one of the existing formats - and Auro is the most likely candidate. Even if Auro is later transitioning to an optional object based format/MDA.

- Carsten

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-01-2014, 08:41 AM:

Auro in its present form is a step backwards since it is a channel based system built on the limited 5.1 channel layout rather than a 7.1 channel layout. "Generic" LPCM could out-do Auro if the folks who control d-cinema standards would just make some decisions regarding the unassigned channels in the 16 channel standard. A 11.1 format with 24-bits in each channel with no proprietary decoding needed is do-able.

I think IMAX will either use its marketing weight to introduce its own proprietary next-gen audio format or the company will use the DTS OpenMDA format. I think Auro is going to get associated with cheaper "large format" concepts like Cinemark's "XD" theaters and perhaps Carmike's "Big D" theaters since Carmike still seems to be leaning in that direction (even though they haven't rolled out more Auro installs yet). IMAX would be wise to put some distance between it and Auro.

Obviously movie productions, particularly the sound departments, can't be looking forward to dealing with yet another proprietary sound format. Innovation is needed on the front end with audio editing tools. IIRC, DTS' OpenMDA format was supposed to be able to output object based mixes compatible with its own format as well as Dolby Atmos and then fold down to channel based formats like Auro, 7.1 and 5.1.

I guess what sound editors need is a sound panning 3D metaphor for a theater showing the various speaker layouts of these differing systems. The sound editing software would need to be smart enough to "snap" or balance sound elements for the unique speaker positions of these different formats and properly generate the audio data for them. It's a total non-starter to expect sound editing crews to create conventional 5.1/7.1 mixes then start over in Dolby Atmos' software front end and then go and do the same thing in Auro's software front end and then add another freaking thing from IMAX on top of that. For crying out loud, the sound crews don't even get enough time to generate really good 5.1 and 7.1 mixes. It's amazing any of them can squeeze out a decent Atmos mix once in awhile.

Posted by Daniel Schulz (Member # 1881) on 09-01-2014, 11:20 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
BUT - If IMAX would implement their own 5.1+ sound system (be it channel or object based) - they would need to do their own multichannel sound mixes for all IMAX major releases. That is quite unlikely to happen, given the time constraints prior to world wide launch dates.

IMAX is already doing multichannel remixes for their releases. The stems go up to IMAX Sound in Toronto for them to re-mix for the existing IMAX sound format.

Your point still stands though, in that a re-mix into 11.1 would presumably take more time than porting a standard 5.1 or 7.1 mix into an IMAX 6.0 mix.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 09-01-2014, 12:35 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
The studios on the other hand will not be able to do another IMAX proprietary sound mix in addition to existing widely used formats 5.1, 7.1, Auro 3D and ATMOS.

Carsten, I do have to disagree with you here. IMAX has a network of over 700+ MPX venues worldwide, that might be double the combined installations of both Auro and Atmos [Smile]

. In addition, IMAX almost guarantees that the movie will be in IMAX locations upon release. So there is no doubt that the studios would cut an IMAX version of the sound mix.

I would agree, the easy way out is to just use the Auro mix. I just don't think it will be the same as Auro.

quote: Daniel Schulz
IMAX is already doing multichannel remixes for their releases. The stems go up to IMAX Sound in Toronto for them to re-mix for the existing IMAX sound format.

You are correct on this, IMAX does modify the mix.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-01-2014, 07:26 PM:

'Modifying' an existing final mix is a very different process than creating a valuable native 5.1+ mix. If you go for more channels with clear directional identities, you need to get access to the original sound mixers 'raw' material' - tapping into their creative territory. Won't happen.

And as the studios cry for a single future 3D audio format, they certainly won't have their sound studios create yet another mix, no matter for how many theaters there may be. Will be few for quite a while anyway...

It simply wouldn't make sense NOT to use Auro, if the speaker layout is more or less the same and mixes for it are created anyway. What would be IMAX' benefit to have only a minor variation with all the added effort to receive the dedicated IMAX sound mixes? They could still postprocess the Auro tracks to their liking as they do it now with 5.1 mixes.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-02-2014, 05:37 AM:

Carsten is absolutely right on this one. Studios will simply not create a new native mix for just a few IMAX locations that could eventually play this. It would be a total waste of time and money.

Furthermore, with IMAX nowadays being primarily a marketing organization for a bunch of technologies implemented by others, I doubt they would even be able to pull it off in the first place. Even if they would be able to sign a studio or two for a limited amount of releases. So it's best for them to find an integrator that allows an easy upgrade path and also allows them to put their label on it. Barco and Auro seem like a better partner for this than Dolby.

The "custom mix" IMAX currently does, is just bollocks, it's just a bit of EQ to adapt it to their backwards sound system and everybody knows that.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 09-02-2014, 11:15 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
It simply wouldn't make sense NOT to use Auro, if the speaker layout is more or less the same and mixes for it are created anyway.

Carsten, while I do agree that Auro is likely the cheapest and easiest route for IMAX to take so that studios/IMAX do not have to make additional mixes, IMAX does release movies in more than 700+ release locations for a DMR. For mega budget movies like Transformers, Star Wars, Star Trek, having a studio create an additional IMAX mix would not be all that difficult, time consuming, or costly. Studios are making Atmos and Auro mixes and the network for those two formats are about 350+ combined locations.

I do not think the set up for IMAX will be identical to Auro.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-02-2014, 03:19 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Studios are making Atmos and Auro mixes and the network for those two formats are about 350+ combined locations.

Terry, you need to double check your speculative numbers before posting them. You're either running with outdated information or you're just guessing.

The last time I checked the installations map on Dolby's web site they had over 450 theater locations with at least one or more screens currently equipped with Dolby Atmos.

I don't know how many theater screens have Auro at this point. They don't seem to update their installations map on their web site quite as often as Dolby. Cinemark has installed a few dozen Auro systems and still appears committed to installing it on all of their "XD" branded screens, which number well over 100 now. If all the commitments Auro currently has come through they'll easily have at least 200 screens equipped in North America alone.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 09-03-2014, 06:42 AM:

Not to say that studios would be any more happy with any larger number of screens for another sound system. The problem is, during the postproduction phase, it is not even simply a matter of money to throw at the problem - the sound mixers are a closed creative group. You can not simply outsource the mix for yet another soundsystem to another group.

You can throw as much money as you like towards the issue, but that group can only work 24hrs a day. If you want another sound mix, you need to give them TIME at first, not money. And more time is what is usually NOT available during that phase of the production. Not for those features that receive ATMOS/AURO etc. mixes typically, and not if you want these sound mixes to achieve the best possible quality for all systems they are done for.

- Carsten

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-22-2014, 07:30 PM:

there is this online story that was posted a couple days ago

"IMAX Reveals New 12-Track Audio Solution"

http://www.display-central.com/free-news/display-daily/imax-reveal-new-12-track-audio-solution/

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-22-2014, 09:21 PM:

I liked the second-last paragraph of that article:

quote: The article
The Dolby Atmos solution offers a similar audio experience in that it creates multiple origin points of sound, but how this is achieved uses a very different approach. Dolby and IMAX may start with the same sound objects, but IMAX renders the sound placement and movement into discrete track of sound. Dolby maintains the object trajectory information right to the theater where it is rendered in place to fit the specific speakers and geometry of that theater. That can work very well in some theaters, but some are concerned about the ability to create the same sound experience over thousands of different theater installations.

It admits that Dolby's Atmos system is better but tries to make Imax's sound better because it isn't precise to the location like Dolby's. Nice piece of dodgy writing -- that guy should be a political writer.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-23-2014, 10:58 AM:

That article makes some claims/points that are highly questionable (or just plain wrong).

THX certified sound systems have a frequency response of no lower than 40Hz? Hmmm. I wonder if that 40Hz spec is a recommended minimum standard. Some high end home theater subs can go well below the 20Hz average threshold for human hearing. Out of commercial cinema speakers QSC has a dual 18" sub that goes down to 27Hz. JBL's 5628 dual 18" sub goes a little lower, 24 Hz-155 Hz (2π) / 27 Hz-1.5 kHz (4π).

Obviously, making a sub bass speaker go to deep lows is one thing. Actually making it sound great is another thing, and this is really an area where IMAX' own speaker systems come up short. Good sounding sub bass is very tight, punchy, rich, clean and controlled. IMHO, IMAX' speaker systems exhibit the same kind audio quality I associate with more muddy, sloppy sounding speaker systems used in rock concerts. It's not as bad as the really sloppy, farty nonsense warbling out of pimped out ghetto mobiles. But it's not all that much better either.

IMAX uses "phantom imaging techniques" to create sounds from anywhere in the room. Is that another way of saying they're altering the movie mix to play on a limited number of speaker enclosures?

That odd dig on Atmos (worries over not being able to create the same sound experience over thousands of theater installations) is actually pretty illogical. The technology in Atmos actually does more to make the sound more consistent from one Atmos location to the next. OTOH, it's beyond Dolby's control over how good or cheap a specific theater wants to make a sound system. And that's a fact of life for all movie theaters, not just ones equipped with a certain sound format.

People can hear sounds in as little as 50ms of time? That actually seems really slow. How are they getting that number?

Human hearing is based in the frequency domain, not the time domain. The only thing that slows a person's ability to hear a sound immediately is the speed of sound moving through the air. Perhaps there might be a very tiny bit of latency between a sound manipulating a person's ear drum and the brain processing it, but 50ms is actually kind of slow. 50ms would be a slightly shitty ping time if you were gaming on a LAN.

The human brain and central nervous system is actually extremely fast and powerful in terms of processing power. We might not be able to remember where we dropped our car keys, but the sensory input we're processing at any moment from all our senses would bring the most powerful computer systems to their knees. And we have that consciousness thing too.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-23-2014, 12:57 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
IMAX uses "phantom imaging techniques" to create sounds from anywhere in the room. Is that another way of saying they're altering the movie mix to play on a limited number of speaker enclosures?

That's just a fancy way of describing the properties of stereo, which has been employing "phantom imaging techniques" since it was first invented. That's the whole point of stereo, forpetesake.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-23-2014, 05:41 PM:

Yeah, "phantom imaging" is just another one of those b.s. IMAX marketing terms, they also use the term for their current 5.0/6.0 sound system. Audio panning is the basis of stereo, (multi-channel) surround and even modern, dynamic object based systems like Dolby Atmos. You can increase realism and "spatial resolution" by adding more discrete channels, but there's a limit to what's actually useful.

It would be real "phantom imaging" if they would use Wave Field Synthesis like the still quite "experimental" IOSONO* sound system. Wave Field Synthesis allows you to create sounds that seem to originate from within the auditorium itself. The downside is, it requires a very high speaker density, all on discrete channels. So, this new 12-channel system would not even come close. Also, wave fields need to be recalculated for every room and speaker layout, so distinctive, pre-defined channels won't cut it.

IMAX more and more resembles those audiophile bullsh*t peddling marketing shills. You know, those who sell a few feet of speaker cable and even digital interconnects more expensive than the highest end speakers.

* Barco recently acquired IOSONO. If they could make open, object based sound formats work in tandem with this technology, they would have a real competitive, technological advantage compared to Dolby Atmos.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-24-2014, 04:39 AM:

Still no word about coding or any reference to Auro 3D, channel assignments, mix workflow, etc,

And I believe it will stay like this. This is simply the way IMAX is doing it. 'Phantom-Sound-System'.

'Don't care! It's the biggest thing ever!'

- Carsten

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-24-2014, 10:26 AM:

We all understand the normal "phantom" properties of sound behavior between speakers, such as the "in your head" phenomenon that happens when you're listening to music on headphones.

But the idea that IMAX, or at least that guy writing that article, went out of the way to say they're using phantom imaging techniques to presumably overcome limitations of using a small number of speakers (rather than speaker arrays) makes me wonder if they're going to be messing around with movie mixes instead of playing them the way the movie makers originally composed them.

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Barco recently acquired IOSONO. If they could make open, object based sound formats work in tandem with this technology, they would have a real competitive, technological advantage compared to Dolby Atmos.

How?

If Barco tried deploying object based sound systems based on Iosono's original concepts it would be cost prohibitive. No commercial theater is going to install literally hundreds of speakers and amplifiers in a single auditorium.

There has to be some point to Barco acquiring Iosono. I would think it has to dove-tail into DTS' efforts with their Multi-Dimensional Audio "MDA" system. Maybe the buy-out is just a way to gain Iosono's patents so DTS & Barco don't have to worry about any law suits. The end game of that acquisition has to be, I hope, a way to upgrade Auro or a replacement of Auro into a legitimate rival to Dolby Atmos.

Unfortunately no one can force Cinemark or anyone else who has already installed an Auro system to upgrade to whatever Barco & DTS develop. As it stands, I'm not sure if Cinemark actually cares about Auro at all. They're not doing anything to advertise it. John Wick is the first movie release in a long time to have an Auro 11.1 mix but not Atmos. But no one would know that without doing some deliberate searching on Auro.

Making matters worse, that activity from Barco and DTS has only seemed to make things grind to a total halt in terms of advancing movie theater sound. Dolby hasn't exactly been installing lots of Atmos systems lately. There's been hardly any new Atmos installs at all in the United States over the past several months. I can't tell what's going on with Auro since they erased most of the Auro installations from their map and haven't updated it since then.

Maybe the technology developers and theater operators are all waiting to see what IMAX will install in its IMAX branded theaters and then react to that -if they do anything at all.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 10-24-2014, 10:56 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
If Barco tried deploying object based sound systems based on Iosono's original concepts it would be cost prohibitive. No commercial theater is going to install literally hundreds of speakers and amplifiers in a single auditorium.

If you look at the setups they implemented, they seemingly don't need hundreds and hundreds of speakers to make it work anymore. They need more speakers than your average Atmos setup, but not a whole lot more. There surely are limitations to the setup, as the "ghost images" only work in a 2D plane, but it works, I've heard it myself.

Dolby prices Atmos out of the market, starting at their totally overpriced decoder. Money not spent on overly expensive decoders, could be spent on additional speakers and amplification. Also, Barco can easily offer package deals: Buy a new projector and get x% discount on our new, upgradable sound system. You get Auro3D now, but you can upgrade to something more advanced (Auro3D 2.0) later, by adding extra (discrete) channels, but using the same decoder.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-24-2014, 11:57 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Maybe the technology developers and theater operators are all waiting to see what IMAX will install

I believe it's more along the lines of "we'll wait till the price comes down since we had a lackluster summer."

Dolby should come up with something like an "Atmos starter kit" where you put in the processor and a minimal number of speakers -- then in a better economic climate, they could sell an upgrade kit which would include more amps and speakers.

Or as I've suggested before, an "Atmos Lite" that is designed for smaller auditoriums and/or those on a tight budget.

I think these high-end systems aren't selling well because of two basic reasons:

1. The public doesn't see the huge difference from a well designed "regular" system to the premium system (and they're not really demanding ear-bleeding volume either), hence they're not demanding these premium sound setups the way they did with surround sound in the 80s.

2. Owners are tired of spending tens of thousands per screen on upgrades that don't really improve business and (more importantly) don't give an amazing perceived benefit to the moviegoer.

That's why the plush seats are a hot item right now -- it's something the patron can touch and feel and enjoy. They don't really notice or care so much if the helicopter sound is coming from one specific location behind them.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 10-25-2014, 03:21 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
I think these high-end systems aren't selling well because of two basic reasons:

1. The public doesn't see the huge difference from a well designed "regular" system to the premium system (and they're not really demanding ear-bleeding volume either), hence they're not demanding these premium sound setups the way they did with surround sound in the 80s.

2. Owners are tired of spending tens of thousands per screen on upgrades that don't really improve business and (more importantly) don't give an amazing perceived benefit to the moviegoer.

I think it is a combination of things, but I think you are right the biggest difference is that the public does not the see that big of a difference between a good sound system and Atmos. Or perhaps they don't really care? Atmos in Canada is at about 25 locations nationwide, Atmos is packaged in with UltraAVX and often times there will be a really short one-week Atmos run for a movie before a new movie will take over the Atmos cinema. Having an Atmos "Lite" or "Mini" would allow Dolby to penetrate more smaller auditoriums within major multiplexes and such, thus it would expand their footprint and exposure. It would also allow smaller complexes to at least have a change to be able to afford the product.

You mentioned surround sound from the 80s, today Dolby has so much more competition than it did in the past, Dolby was pretty much the only real brand name for sound marketing in the late 70s, 80s, and early 90s.

As for the new IMAX sound system and new laser projection, just recently IMAX held an invite at a Cineplex IMAX facility for GT/SR and MPX operators. They showed of their new laser retro-fit and showed demos of upcoming content, everything described in the post from the home theater forum is spot on, the new sound system is not trying to replicate or compete with Atmos, its a different take on audio with more than 6 channels.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 10-26-2014, 12:01 PM:

Other than "GOOD" movies all this new tech isn't gunna bring any more people to the theaters except the small 0.01% of guys like us who love state-of-the-art movie tech. I have literaly dozens of movie going friends and couples my wife and I go see movies with. Out of all them (25-30) I am the only one who even cares about movie presentation and understands the technology and is passionate about it. Most actually dis-like surround sound as they say it is distracting having sounds coming from anywhere but the screen. Most only notice something if it goes wrong. This is the average movie goer's mind set and it sucks but its the truth. I personally am excited to hear and view IMAX's new tech.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-27-2014, 04:01 PM:

funny you should say that Jarod - I've been that particular since my high school years - my friends knew that I decided which theater to go to, since I was the stickler on what theaters were worth the time and attention to see a film at. However I'm still kicking myself for somehow not noticing or making the effort to see 'Aliens' in 70mm down at DC's Fine Arts theater (oh well).

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 12-01-2014, 02:32 PM:

quote:
I don't think this is serious. ...1.45" wraparound on the grill. You will be able to see the screws!!!... etc. (The entire thing about the new side speakers should be a clue, IMO.)

C'mon, the guy has 1 post! He's a troll. Hanging on a metal stand, no doubt. [Big Grin]

Spotted the new sound system yesterday, they are being installed in anticipation for the Hobbit 3, obviously it was not in operation as the movie playing was Interstellar in 15/70.

The description is spot on, metal type front with wrap around and exposed screws. Only difference from the link is that there were two small speaker additions on each side and not one, so two side speakers and the usual IMAX rears. Also on the roof are the speaker mounts which are four of them, they are large but they are not yet finished.

quote: Carsten Kurz
It would be natural to use Auro for IMAX as Barcos servers support it AND the format is compatible with all previous 5.1 IMAX locations without the need for a dedicated sound mix/format. They could upgrade slowly one by one without major disruptions.

I think you are correct on this, the new IMAX commercials mention Barco near the end of the ad.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-01-2014, 05:56 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I think you are correct on this, the new IMAX commercials mention Barco near the end of the ad.

But that could just as well mean only the partnership in 2*2k and laser projection, not necessarily Auro 3D? Still my best guess is that is is indeed Auro 3D, but no heavy Auro branding applied.

- Carsten

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 12-01-2014, 05:57 PM:

Thanks for the info Terry. Are they installing Laser Projection at that location as well?

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 12-11-2014, 11:22 AM:

got a Facebook message from the Smithsonian that with the conversion to laser projectors next January-March (2015) the audio will upgraded to the 12-track system ...

now I wonder what film(s) will be encoded as such

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-15-2014, 07:16 AM:

I heard the first pilot IMAX laser-installations were due to open with the Hobbit - anything known wether they actually succeeded?

- Carsten

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-16-2014, 10:49 AM:

I'm doubting it since Warren Theaters is claiming to have "the first and only" laser projection systems in full time operation when its new Broken Arrow Warren multiplex opens on December 23.

The laser projection systems are installed in their two "Grand Infinity" auditoriums. They're Christie 6P systems (don't know if they're single or dual head though). The sound systems are THX certified and feature Dolby Atmos wired in its maximum 64-channel configuration.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 12-17-2014, 06:47 AM:

I think there are at least three or four Barco 6P systems in regular operation since last week, opening with The Hobbit III:

http://www.barco.com/en/News/Press-releases/Kinepolis-Group-goes-live-with-Barcos-unique-laser-projection-in-Lomme-FR-Brussels-BE-and-Madrid-ES.aspx?

Still remains to be seen how the IMAX laser system performs, but I think I would prefer a 'conventional' Barco or Christie 6p system with color separation 3D and ATMOS sound system.

- Carsten

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 12-18-2014, 12:36 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Warren Theaters is claiming to have "the first and only" laser projection systems in full time operation when its new Broken Arrow Warren multiplex opens on December 23.

According to LF Examiner, the world's first permanent laser-illuminated digital projector installation was a Christie system in Shanghai [China] Film Art Center in June.

Moody Gardens in Galveston, Texas, was the second in November, installing Christie Duo 6P 4K.

Five days later the Seattle Cinerama installed a Christie 6P system.

IMAX's first laser system is scheduled to open this month in Toronto for THE HOBBIT: THE BATTLE OF THE FIVE ARMIES.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-18-2014, 03:54 PM:

I don't know how much truth there is to Warren's claim of having the first 4K laser projectors in operation in the United States. I guess that would have to be qualified by some variables. Are the projectors at the Seattle Cinerama and Moody Gardens 4K? Did Bill Warren buy his projectors before those guys?
[Confused]

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 12-22-2014, 05:53 AM:

I've seen The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies in dual 4K laser projector color separated 3D HFR AND Atmos...

Although the technology is capable of doing 60FPS 3D in 4K, The Hobbit is only 2K 48FPS. Still, the picture is remarkably bright... Too bright actually, because it enhances the "soap opera" effect of the HFR even further actually.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 12-22-2014, 12:03 PM:

Bobby does it really matter if Bill bought them before others if he is late to install them before others? I think Bill is just tooting his own horn with the first install stuff. Unless he has something that no one else does.

Posted by Buck Wilson (Member # 5885) on 12-22-2014, 02:35 PM:

Bill can toot his horn all he wants. He does shit right. Haha

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 12-22-2014, 05:12 PM:

quote: Jarod Reddig
Bobby does it really matter if Bill bought them before others if he is late to install them before others? I think Bill is just tooting his own horn with the first install stuff. Unless he has something that no one else does

It really makes no difference who installed the first laser projection systems, I am not sure why Bobby cares so much, I believe Cinerama in Seattle was the first or they claim to be the first.

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 12-22-2014, 05:33 PM:

For sure Buck I respect him verry much. Love his theaters. I go to 21st Warren in Wichita lots.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-25-2014, 07:13 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
It really makes no difference who installed the first laser projection systems, I am not sure why Bobby cares so much, I believe Cinerama in Seattle was the first or they claim to be the first.

He made 2 posts on the matter total, the first of which was answering a question posed. That's hardly obsessed.

And you telling someone that they care too much about a topic is "the pot calling the kettle black" taken to damn near infinity.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 01-29-2015, 11:03 AM:

The Smithsonian just released this new press release:

Over the next few months the IMAX Theater at the Steven F. Udvar-Hazy Center will be undergoing renovations to upgrade to the first major technological innovation since the advent of digital projection-the new laser digital projection system! The IMAX GT (Grand Theater) Laser Digital Projection System is designed to replace IMAX film projection systems, which have long been the most advanced theater projection systems in use. 3D content will fill the six-story IMAX screen with stunning brightness, clarity, and contrast, and will also contain more brilliant colors than have been possible to date with any theater projection system. Complementing the projection system will be a brand new, multi-channel and multi-dimensional sound system that will allow viewers to hear sounds at specific points in the theater space. During this transition to the laser digital projection the Airbus IMAX Theater is expected to close towards the end of February with completion and re-opening slated for April. The Lockheed Martin IMAX Theater at the National Air and Space Museum and the Samuel C. Johnson IMAX Theater at the National Museum of Natural History will be fully operational during this time frame.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 02-19-2015, 04:18 PM:

So a few cool things [Cool]

can be confirmed about the new IMAX laser:

1.43 aspect ratio
12 channel sound
different costs for the projector based on screen size
projector is custom built for the screen size installation
Meteron AMC, Lincoln Square, Smithsonian all for 2015
TCL Chinese Theatre will open around April with laser.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 02-19-2015, 06:38 PM:

Really curious if/how they implemented a native 1.43 ratio?!

- Carsten

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 02-28-2015, 04:07 PM:

the time frame of the renovation of the Smithsonian IMAX screens has changed yet again - still 2015 (at least for the Udvar Hazy and Natural History Museum) but the downtown Mall Air & Space will be the last conversion and more than likely be the beginning of next year (at the earliest - got to have that 'Star Wars Episode 7' in native 15/70 [Wink]

Natural History's renovation has been postponed til the Fall of this year.

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 03-05-2015, 01:49 PM:

quote:
Really curious if/how they implemented a native 1.43 ratio?!

Vertical anamorphic lens to expand the native 1.9 ratio 4K chip.