Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital IMAX LFE?

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Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-11-2015, 09:21 PM:

Hello All,

This is my first post...

I’ve been experiencing something quite frustrating at my local digital IMAX Theater and wondering if someone can shed some light for me?

My local digital IMAX is run by an AMC in Torrance California. Every film I’ve experienced there, has sounded incredible! For several years, the low frequencies have been as powerful, distortion free and pulse pounding as they come! Ever since I saw Edge of Tomorrow in that theater, I’ve noticed the LFE is now mostly non-existent. I’ve heard rumors of films being mixed with high pass filtering, so I thought Edge of Tomorrow was one of those.

Since that film, I’ve seen three others, including most recently Chappie and they all sounded flat with almost no LFE. There are some moments where the bass kicks in, but nowhere near like before. It seems that only the LFE has been affected. The volume is still nice and strong, surrounds and high frequencies still sound great as well. I noticed the AMC Empire 25 in NYC (during a Man of Steel showing) also suffered from a lack of LFE. I’ve contacted IMAX about the NYC location and never heard back from them. I’m concerned they will not care about the CA location and let it go. I’ve also been in contact with management at the CA location and they say IMAX handles the settings.

It’s such a shame because the AMC in Torrance used to sound so incredible! What is with IMAX and their calibrations? Or is it just me?

Posted by Harold Hallikainen (Member # 5405) on 03-11-2015, 09:57 PM:

I wonder if the LFE has failed (amplifier or speaker or something else), and you are the first one to notice. We noticed the failure of an LFE amplifier in a local art house through LSS-100 tests. No one else ever noticed (but that was an art house without a lot of LFE anyway).

Harold

Posted by Jarod Reddig (Member # 6363) on 03-11-2015, 10:08 PM:

Ya it definitly could be an amp failure on the LFE side or something like that. This happaned I believe not too long ago at a Colorado Imax and after a complaint from a Film-Tech'r they sent a service tech in and fixed the problem. I would keep complaining.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 03-11-2015, 10:20 PM:

quote: Aron Toplitsky
I’ve contacted IMAX about the NYC location and never heard back from them. I’m concerned they will not care about the CA location and let it go. I’ve also been in contact with management at the CA location and they say IMAX handles the settings.

Who have you contacted at IMAX? The email at the end of the movie will get a response from David Keighley almost guaranteed, from there the email should get to the appropriate channels. . Other than that, IMAX should be able to remotely diagnose if there is indeed a failure. Perhaps it has failed and they have not fixed it yet. AMC should have a maintenance agreement for their digital system, so they will fix it.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-11-2015, 11:23 PM:

It's got to either be an amplifier or maybe just a wire has vibrated loose from a subwoofer terminal.

I think it's kind of hilarious that it takes all this crap to get something fixed and that there's obviously nobody doing any kind of "quality control" at this theater. A patron has to write an email to some high-up, who then will probably contact the local management, who will then contact the service company. The service company will then call the service technician who will come out and plug the amp back in, or replace the blown fuse or whatever.

You'd think somebody at that theater would be able to just walk around and look at the equipment and see if there is an obvious problem....or do they have everything behind lock and key? (Wouldn't be surprising, I guess.)

Terry, if you have the email address for this David guy, maybe you could PM it to the original poster so he doesn't have to buy another movie ticket to get the address.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 03-12-2015, 12:08 AM:

I don't buy it. IMAX has microphones in the auditorium and it goes through a ritual in the mornings to "verify proper calibration". (I put that in quotes as I don't know specifically what they are looking for, but SURELY it is to verify the presence of each channel, the appropriate SPL and an acceptable frequency response). That being said, it sounds intentional.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-12-2015, 01:02 AM:

Wow you guys are awesome! I didn't expect such a timely response.

Terry, when I experienced this issue at the Empire 25 in NYC, I logged onto the IMAX website and clicked on the “email us” link. I have not been back to the Empire IMAX since June of 2012, but assumed nothing was done since I didn’t get a response. I do know that when I saw Man of Steel the second time at the Torrance CA IMAX, the LFE was much better, like night and day!

As for the current situation with the AMC in Torrance, I have only been in contact with management and haven’t contacted IMAX yet. What frustrates me is I’ve had a phone conversation around a month ago, with one of them (management) concerning this issue. All the possibilities you guys mentioned has crossed my mind.

This is not the first time I’ve heard IMAX having a strict quality control. If that’s the case, why do their theaters have issues? For example, another offender of this (for years) I’ve found to be the Sony Lincoln Square IMAX in NYC. I stopped going there years ago to avoid hearing a dead LFE track. I didn’t know at the time that I could contact someone. It was the same type of situation. Saw the 2009 Star Trek there and wasn’t impressed by the LFE. Then I saw it in LA at the former IMAX Howard Hughes Center and it just blew away Lincoln SQ. Keep in mind both were 15/70 presentations. Although what Brad is now saying TRULY disturbs me and I hope is not the case! They will never get another dime from me if this theater continues to sound the way it does!

Mike you are absolutely right in how ridiculous it is for no one to notice the problem or even figure it out. This is one of the reasons why I dislike going to theaters. Sorry to say, but if I had the money to really hook up a home theater, I’d NEVER go to the movies again. The sound is usually not set properly. This same theater did a quality check a few years back due to my complaints about The Avengers being played too low. Turns out most of their auditoriums had been turned down and never reset. They explained how most patrons can’t handle the fader levels set near seven and got lots of requests to turn it down. They said they also never turn it up that high out of fear of blowing speakers. Even though the fader wasn’t set to seven when corrected, it was a huge improvement. I’m just getting really tired of dealing with this issue at different theaters! Although to this theater’s (AMC Torrance) credit, I will say management has been great at listening to my concerns. Sometimes though, I feel like they think I’m abnormal for noticing.

Anyhow, thanks again for sharing your thoughts. I welcome more thoughts on this. Any contacts I can forward this to would be appreciated. Here’s a thought and probably a conversation for another forum, I notice this kind of similar thing with some Atmos set-ups as well. Sometimes it seems like the overall volume is turned down and not just an LFE problem.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-12-2015, 03:05 AM:

Please notice: The IMAX sound system does NOT have a separate LFE channel. All sound channeled through the sub(s) is done so via bass management only.

I'm not sure where the cutoff frequency is, but it's a rather hard cutoff if memory serves right.

As for the automatic calibration voodoo, you can wonder how effective it is and if a misalignment that can't be automatically fixed are acted upon in a timely fashion.

Then again, during my last Digital IMAX visit I noticed the volume as a whole must have been knocked down quite a few dB, because it was actually bearable. But yes, it also missed much this stomach turning rumbling Digital IMAX has become known for.

So, maybe they're acting on patrons complains by turning down the volume? Or maybe someone sued them because of hearing damage inflicted by their overdriven volume levels?

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 03-12-2015, 09:03 AM:

Aron,

Hopefully, you can get an official response from IMAX and/or AMC about the matter.

Additionally, would you be willing to post a message on our Reader Comments page for the theater?

http://www.bigscreen.com/Marquee.php?theater=10118&view=comments

(Note: We're an independent publication and not directly associated with IMAX or AMC)

It's possible that other people are noticing the issue as well, but aren't saying anything, or once they know about it, they'll notice and say something as well. If/when IMAX/AMC addresses the issue, you could post a follow-up, and that will show people how responsive they are, which would be a win-win scenario.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-12-2015, 04:45 PM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The IMAX sound system does NOT have a separate LFE channel. All sound channeled through the sub(s) is done so via bass management only.

So what happens to the LFE track for an IMAX CPL? Does it get re-mixed in Post to be filtered off again by some Imax proprietary device?

I do not know Imax systems in detail but that sounds pretty unlikely to me.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-12-2015, 09:59 PM:

Maybe Marcel refers to 15/70 only. I'm sure IMAX uses the discrete LFE channel from 5.1 soundtracks just like every other cinema.

- Carsten

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-13-2015, 12:43 AM:

Apparently, no.

Yes, IMAX can handle "non Digital IMAX" DCPs just fine, but we all know IMAX "optimizes" their content for their theaters. They also mess around with the soundmix. To what extend they mess round, is their secret sauce branded as part of the whole DMR concept.

If you ever watched "non-IMAX" content in a Digital IMAX theater, you'll notice it will use just one projector instead of two and there will be a lot less bass.

So, I guess they mix the LFE component of the original track with one or more of their 5 commonly implemented channels.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-13-2015, 01:10 AM:

Scott, yes I’d be willing to post on that site, but I just want to wait until I hear back from the manager. If I don’t then I will do what I can so IMAX is made aware.

Unfortunately now that I think about it, my last few Digital IMAX experiences have been quite weak in the lower frequencies. I saw the second Hobbit film at one of the top AMC theaters in Los Angeles, known as the Century City 15, and the sub frequencies were weak. Earlier last year, saw Godzilla at the brand new 900 seat TCL IMAX Chinese theater. It was once again, a weak low frequency presentation. Two weeks prior I’d seen Godzilla in their Atmos auditorium and the sound was just absolutely jaw dropping! The lows were so powerful, it was as if the theater was being pulverized when the LFE kicked in during certain scenes. And yet there was no distortion whatsoever! Those MUTOS were almost frightening to listen to! Okay to be fair, Atmos and IMAX Digital use different technology and it's a different mix, but I personally think there is NO excuse for a 900 seat IMAX theater, to not even compare to the Atmos presentation!

And I don’t mean to go off on a tangent here, but while I’m on the topic of the TCL Chinese IMAX Theater, I never understood how they were able to promote Interstellar as a 15/70 presentation when their screen didn’t seem to be nothing like a true IMAX 15/70 size screen?

Anyhow, with all of that said in terms of the low frequencies, could this be a new trend for IMAX, where they are filtering them during playback, perhaps to appease those who can’t handle it? It’s like Marcel said…

“So, maybe they're acting on patrons complains by turning down the volume? Or maybe someone sued them because of hearing damage inflicted by their overdriven volume levels?”

I’d love to find out if this is in fact, what IMAX is doing. If they are, it's very unfortunate and I will never pay for an IMAX presentation again!

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 03-13-2015, 01:25 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
I'm sure IMAX uses the discrete LFE channel from 5.1 soundtracks just like every other cinema.

quote:
I’d love to find out if this is in fact, what IMAX is doing. If they are, it's very unfortunate and I will never pay for an IMAX presentation again!

That is unfortunate that you will never see an IMAX presentation again, but to each his own.

I know a lot people on here have their issues with IMAX and If anyone is doubting whether IMAX XENON DIGITAL uses a 5.1 system with a sub-bass system, lets get the facts out in the open.

1. IMAX does use a 5.1 soundtrack for IMAX Digital

2. The .1 is a sub bass channel

3. The 5.1 soundtrack is re-mixed for IMAX use.

The information is freely available, its patented, its part of SMPTE, there is no hiding behind anything.

For those who are interested, the following is part of the patent document ..

The theatre sound system is setup with a loudspeaker configuration as illustrated in FIGS. 9 a and 9 b. FIG. 9 a is a plan view of the loudspeaker positions in a converted theatre and FIG. 9 b is a front view of the loudspeakers behind the screen in a converted theatre. There are 5 loudspeakers 101, 102, 103, 104, and 105, each driven from a separate audio source, and each with appropriate amplification and equalization. There is a 6th Sub-Bass Loudspeaker assembly 106 consisting of several sub-woofer elements grouped together that re-produce the low-frequency sound derived from the 5 audio channels. Powered with sufficient amplification these loudspeakers provide realistic sound levels for low-frequency sounds such as rocket launches, earthquakes, and explosions. Each audio channel is fed uncompressed digital sound with a resolution of 16 bits or greater from the Digital Sound Reproducer. The Digital Sound Reproducer is normally positioned in the sound rack 120 in the projection booth.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-13-2015, 04:18 PM:

But it says

quote:
consisting of several sub-woofer elements grouped together that re-produce the low-frequency sound derived from the 5 audio channels

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-14-2015, 06:45 AM:

Like I said before, digital IMAX releases, just like their 15/70 counterparts are either 5.0 or 6.0 and the sub component is entirely "derived" from those channels using bass management. How they mix the original 5.1 or 7.1 mix into their 5.0 or 6.0 mix is their "secret" and might differ between releases.

All in all, nothing very special and something almost any household sound processor can do and will do those days.

Also, many see the concept of a separate LFE channel as something rather outdated concept, as it doesn't scale for all kinds of sound system layouts equally well. The 10 dB offset for the LFE channel can also be equally be pushed into another channel, given the high dynamic range of modern, uncompressed digital formats.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-14-2015, 03:49 PM:

I can't really understand why IMAX should re-mix the sub into the other channels to then filter it out again.
I agree that - if done correctly - the final result shouldn't be any different than a .1 soundtrack but still can't get the reason for doing that.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-14-2015, 06:19 PM:

The original Sonics sound systems for IMAX were patterned after the original IMAXsound layout 6 discrete tracks L C R P Q and Top
the sub was a bass management system that took a track sum filtered it and sent it to the sub they never had a discrete sub track (in a way it was a bit like DTS with the sub in the surround channels) I assume to maintain backward compatablty they had to maintain that format

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-14-2015, 06:40 PM:

What is P and Q?

Wouldn't it make sense to have a standard 5.1 now that the LFE is on the soundtrack? Any chance that this setup only applies for 15/70?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 03-15-2015, 12:02 PM:

P is Left Surround Q is Right Surround for us CP200 people
Plus it would not make a lot of sense as the entire Large Format library was mixed in that format

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-15-2015, 01:19 PM:

quote: Marco Giustini
I can't really understand why IMAX should re-mix the sub into the other channels to then filter it out again.

The primary reason would indeed be backward compatibility with existing 15/70 inventory. Although I'm not sure if any of the documentary features have ever been released as an IMAX DCP.

Many 15/70 locations have also installed the digital Xenon based system as a stopgap solution until the laser system is available. At least this solution should be compatible with their sound system.

Also, some movies might target the IMAX sound system as the reference sound system. That's what supposedly happened with Interstellar and it might also explain why this movie didn't even get a 7.1 or Atmos general release, only a 5.1 release.

Posted by Allan Young (Member # 6332) on 03-15-2015, 03:12 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I know a lot people on here have their issues with IMAX and If anyone is doubting whether IMAX XENON DIGITAL uses a 5.1 system with a sub-bass system, lets get the facts out in the open.

1. IMAX does use a 5.1 soundtrack for IMAX Digital

2. The .1 is a sub bass channel

3. The 5.1 soundtrack is re-mixed for IMAX use.

Many thanks for this list of facts.

Thanks too for the reference to the patent document which confirms they're not actually facts.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-16-2015, 03:34 AM:

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Anyhow, with all of that said in terms of the low frequencies, could this be a new trend for IMAX, where they are filtering them during playback, perhaps to appease those who can’t handle it? It’s like Marcel said...

I don't think they're filtering anything during playback. Usually, IMAX doesn't allow you to mess with their IMAX Digital presets, so the only thing you, as an operator usually can do is turn the volume down, back from reference level.

The problem is, turning the volume down will apply to all channels and the whole spectrum equally, so it will also affect the impact of the sub woofer array.

I guess many people would prefer a presentation with a powerful bass, but without the feeling people in the movie are constantly screaming. [Wink]

What I do know from people that actually work at an IMAX Digital location is that they DO get much more complaints about volume from their IMAX presentation than from their regular presentations. They have turned down the volume for certain features (and they probably also have forgotten to turn it back to reference afterwards).

So, I don't know of any IMAX corporate policy of turning down the volume across the installation base, but some managers do take customer complaints to heart. The way the "remedies" get implemented might not always offer a solution for everybody, unfortunately...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-16-2015, 02:31 PM:

The question is also, do they play 'regular' DCPs AND specially treated IMAX mastered DCPs? In that case, ref level and frequency response could change dramatically between different showings.

- Carsten

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-16-2015, 03:07 PM:

The whole thing about "reference" volume levels is kind of a conundrum for me. How do you know what "reference" actually is? Do the directors actually want audiences to have an experience that big explosions and such sound awesome, but dialog comes off sounding like a TV that's turned up way too loud?

I love nice loud action scenes but I adjust our volume to the dialog and let it go from there, unless the action scenes are pitifully too soft with the dialog played at a normal volume. Every movie is different.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-16-2015, 06:31 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
The question is also, do they play 'regular' DCPs AND specially treated IMAX mastered DCPs? In that case, ref level and frequency response could change dramatically between different showings.

Usually, the only non IMAX DCPs that are shown are those in the pre-show: commercials, theater specific snipes and a few non-IMAX trailers. Those auditoriums normally don't see any non-IMAX features. IMAX essentially owns all of their equipment, so they decide what's being played on it and what not.

The IMAX Digital show usually starts with a somewhat cheesy IMAX snipe announcing the start of the real beef. The second projector will open the dowser and you'll notice a sharp increase in brightness. This is usually the first time you'll notice the subs in full swing. Also the rather visible pixel grid will usually somewhat vanish. I guess they accomplish this by running one of the projectors slightly out of focus. Obviously, the presets for regular DCP features are toned down on purpose, to maximize the perceived difference in "quality" between "regular" and "IMAX".

If you're playing a non-IMAX DCP as a feature, you may not advertise and sell it as an IMAX presentation and you're also required to play some kind of notice, making clear that this is NOT an IMAX feature presentation and therefore not an IMAX experience. You might also need to have special permission from the IMAX mothership, but this is me guessing.

quote: Mike Blakesley
The whole thing about "reference" volume levels is kind of a conundrum for me. How do you know what "reference" actually is? Do the directors actually want audiences to have an experience that big explosions and such sound awesome, but dialog comes off sounding like a TV that's turned up way too loud?

I fully agree with you. Although with IMAX it could be somewhat different. In normal feature releases, there is no real central entity that has end-control over the sound mix. You could say the studios, but there are many studios and subdivisions and most studios probably don't really care anyway. So you end up with many different mixes, one definitely mixed "hotter" than the other.

I'm not saying I'm in full agreement with this practice, but IMAX remixes all sound mixes before they hit their theaters. As mentioned before, it's rather unclear to what extend this remix goes. But in theory, they could "normalize" the mixes to some extend. A movie without any action scenes and just pure dialog will still not sound as hot as an action movie packed with non-stop explosions, but at least stuff like normal dialog would be at roughly the same level.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-17-2015, 01:35 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
The second projector will open the dowser ... the rather visible pixel grid will usually somewhat vanish.

Ha ha. No. The pixels were bigger than typical bricks during Skyfall.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-17-2015, 03:06 AM:

Yeah, at those insane magnification levels, you will always be able to make out individual pixels. Even 4K will not be sufficient to make it go away in my opinion. Around here, almost all features have subtitles. Those subtitles look like superimposed Nintendo Famicom graphics. The effect gets amplified because the anti-aliassing used to render those subtitles during IMAX presentations seems broken.

But I was referring to the screen door effect, which usually gets greatly reduced once the second projector kicks in.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-17-2015, 02:34 PM:

Joe,

Skyfall in Imax was when I decided to give up with cinemas. The pixels were clearly visible and the overall picture was truly unacceptable - particularly for a 18 pounds ticket.
I love cinema but I'm sick to be ripped off for mediocre presentations.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-17-2015, 05:50 PM:

Just avoid the gargantuan screens and stick to auditoriums with normal sized screens. You'll save money and avoid massive pixels.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-19-2015, 03:42 AM:

That... or if you really want to see it on a massive screen, at least choose a theater with 4K projection capabilities and preferably a 4K release too.

But there aren't that many movies shot with massive screens in mind anyway.

Interestingly though, during the few digital IMAX presentations I've seen, people behaved exactly like they did during regular shows: The back third of the room always filled first...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-19-2015, 10:02 AM:

That's because people are more about comfort than they are about the size of the image. (It's probably the biggest reason why so many stay home and watch TV.)

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-19-2015, 10:40 AM:

quote: Marcel Birgelen
Yeah, at those insane magnification levels, you will always be able to make out individual pixels. Even 4K will not be sufficient to make it go away in my opinion.

That's okay. They'll just dial the projectors far enough out of focus to make the pixel grid disappear. Can't be any problem with that given the tendency of audience members to gravitate to the highest yet farthest back rows in stadium seated auditoriums.

quote: Mike Blakesley
Just avoid the gargantuan screens and stick to auditoriums with normal sized screens. You'll save money and avoid massive pixels.

With a purely film-based movie production the concept of DPI (dots per inch) was never much of an issue. If someone projected a 35mm film image on too large a screen the biggest problems he would encounter is imagery that wasn't bright enough and if the projector had any kind of issues with steadiness any picture movement would be amplified on the bigger screen.

Digital on really big screens sadly translates to big blurry imagery or noticeably jaggy imagery if the operator really wanted to properly focus the image. On top of jaggy imagery there's a risk of the pixel grid pattern clashing with the perf dot pattern on the screen, delivering moiré effects.

Compound this problem with all the video-based production and digital-based post production now dominating how movies are made. All sorts of softening takes place at various stages. Just add some subtle blur effects to make the 40-something actress still look 20-something. Throw in some noise filters to imitate grain to fake like the picture is still in focus. Color? We'll bleed away all the natural saturation in the native video camera image, apply some film look filters to what's almost a grayscale image now and to finish it off we'll add a David Fincher inspired urine colored wash to the whole thing.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 03-19-2015, 04:47 PM:

I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response (unless you're looking for LFE levels sufficient to make you lose your bowels).

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 03-19-2015, 05:50 PM:

Most people tend to gravitate to the rear of an auditorium,, that happens in both IMAX GT theaters, as well as MPX theaters or just regular theaters (including Atmos). Most will try to sit dead-center if possible. I have never met one person ever who has mentioned to me that they can see visible pixels on a screen in any digital format ever released. Most would have no idea what we talk about on this board and I don't think they would care either. I have also never met one person who mentioned to me that IMAX Digital uses a dual projection system.

quote: Martin Brooks
I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response

I don't think the average customer really cares. They seem to enjoy paying the premium for what they get either in IMAX Digital (Xenon and Laser) or IMAX film. You would think that the switch to IMAX Digital would of turned off enough people to seriously damage the financials for all players involved with IMAX. Yet the cinema chains continue to open new IMAX screens and people for the most part continue to pay for the The IMAX Experience. The studios also continue to partner with IMAX which likely indicates that the studios see value in the IMAX product, and I am sure with all the loyalty programs, the large chains (and most likely the studios) have a good idea if people are going out of their way to watch a movie in IMAX. Perhaps they even know if people are seeking out SR/GT IMAX locations such Tinseltown IMAX or Scotiabank and thus skipping the MPX locations that a lot of people do not like.

What simply amazes me is how much discussion IMAX continues to generate on this forum (more negative than positive) and in the mainstream press. There have been many members that have predicted that IMAX would not be around at this point ever since the switch to IMAX Digital occurred. I don't think they are going disappear anytime soon but IMO, I think Greg Foster needs to keep his mouth shut and perhaps hire a professional PR person.

IMAX knows full well that watching an IMAX movie in IMAX Digital is not the same as watching a movie in 15/70. But is watching a Dolby Atmos movie on a cell phone or tablet branded any differently than Dolby Atmos in a cinema? [Moon]

The last 15/70 release of Interstellar was sensational, I was a bit surprised myself that IMAX reconverted some locations to be able to play the movie in 15/70 for 4-5 weeks, we were lucky enough to have two locations open the movie in 15/70 within 15 minutes driving distance, I saw it numerous times in 15/70 at each of the locations and I sure hope we continue to get a few releases in 15/70 in the near future, and I am crossing my fingers that the new Star Wars will get a release in the format.

I always thought that the new IMAX laser configuration that is now available at the Scotiabank in Toronto would of been branded as something different than just IMAX, I was wrong. From what I have seen, its pretty good and the new sound system does not appear to be as loud as the 6-track system. I was also surprised to see the Dolby 3D logo on the glasses.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-19-2015, 06:01 PM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
Most people tend to gravitate to the rear of an auditorium,, that happens in both IMAX GT theaters, as well as MPX theaters or just regular theaters (including Atmos).

I think it's got less to do with sound and whatnot, and more to do with comfort. People are most comfortable looking at a screen when they're more at eye level with it, which you will get in the back of a flat auditorium or the center of a stadium auditorium.

When it comes to horizontal positioning, then that's where the sound comes in. I hate sitting at the extreme right or left, no matter how far back I am because of what it does to the stereo effect.

Posted by Aron Toplitsky (Member # 6950) on 03-20-2015, 06:46 AM:

quote:
Marcel Birgelen

What I do know from people that actually work at an IMAX Digital location is that they DO get much more complaints about volume from their IMAX presentation than from their regular presentations. They have turned down the volume for certain features (and they probably also have forgotten to turn it back to reference afterwards).

The volume was definitely quite loud during certain scenes. I'd say the level wasn't adjusted and sounded like reference level to me.

quote:
Martin Brooks

I saw Interstellar in 70mm IMAX at the Loews Lincoln Square IMAX and I saw Gravity in digital IMAX at the same theatre and both presentations were fine, including LF response (unless you're looking for LFE levels sufficient to make you lose your bowels).

Well I'm glad Sony Lincoln Sq is sounding good these days. I haven't seen a film there since 2009. Don't know how true this is, but an insider once told me they "blow woofers all the time" and is why that theater tends to lack in low end. I did see Interstellar twice at two different 15/70 locations in the Los Angeles area and both were fantastic! No complaints.

Well it's been two weeks since I sent an email to the AMC manager and I haven't heard back. Going to try the next step and that is to contact IMAX. It would be great if I could somehow pass this along to the CEO.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-20-2015, 06:59 AM:

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I have never met one person ever who has mentioned to me that they can see visible pixels on a screen in any digital format ever released.

I guess about everybody in this forum doesn't count then. But you also haven't met yourself I guess? Because if you cannot see pixels, where are you looking at exactly?

If you're sufficiently close to the screen, you can easily spot individual pixels at any 2K presentation you go to without a completely unwatchable, out of focus picture. And no, I'm not saying you need to be with your face in the screen, in many auditoriums sitting in the front third of the auditorium is sufficient. Individual pixels are usually easiest to spot around sharp edges. Stuff like subtitles, credits, etc. suffers the most from this phenomenon.

The few Digital IMAX presentations I attended, I was sitting dead center of the room, yet the pixels were VERY evident.

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
I don't think the average customer really cares. They seem to enjoy paying the premium for what they get either in IMAX Digital (Xenon and Laser) or IMAX film.

Yeah, because... Everything is awesome!

quote: Terry Lynn-Stevens
But is watching a Dolby Atmos movie on a cell phone or tablet branded any differently than Dolby Atmos in a cinema?

Repeat after me: Dolby Atmos is a format, not a presentation standard.

You can have Dolby Atmos installed in your toilet seat. You shouldn't be able to have IMAX installed in it.

Posted by Terry Lynn-Stevens (Member # 7349) on 03-20-2015, 10:19 AM:

quote: Aron Toplitsky
Well it's been two weeks since I sent an email to the AMC manager and I haven't heard back. Going to try the next step and that is to contact IMAX. It would be great if I could somehow pass this along to the CEO.

Why even bother? Why don't you just not go back?

quote: Mike Blakesley
I think it's got less to do with sound and whatnot, and more to do with comfort. People are most comfortable looking at a screen when they're more at eye level with it, which you will get in the back of a flat auditorium or the center of a stadium auditorium.

I agree, but people have been conditioned to want to sit in the back half of the theater. There are some that like to sit in the last row no matter what and then there are some that will actively sit dead center or somewhere near there. I think some are sitting there for the surround effect but maybe one of every twenty really care. At your theater? What is the usual pattern for folks choosing their seats?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-20-2015, 12:52 PM:

It's not "conditioning." It's where they feel the most comfortable or where they get the experience they want.

Our place is just like any other. Kids go to the front rows, adults generally from the mid-point to the back.

We have a balcony but we don't let kids up there, so a lot of adults head up there -- but when they see that it's farther from the screen, some of them come back down. I haven't watched a movie from our balcony in at least 30 years because I like to be closer to the screen. But some like the angle of view from the balcony so they prefer to sit there.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 03-29-2015, 01:33 PM:

It's not that people don't care. It's that they can't necessarily tell when something is wrong or sub-optimal. If there isn't a good LF response, how does the average movie goer know that this isn't simply the way the theatre sounds all the time? If we're not hearing anything out of the surrounds or if the tweeters are blown in some surrounds, how do we know that the film isn't mixed that way?

Also, most consumers have heard nothing but bad sound for years, whether in theaters, music shows or their own headsets and MP3 players. I don't even think most of today's musicians and live sound engineers truly know what good sound sounds like. All anyone does today is blast the levels to brain melting levels and then make it even louder as the show progresses.

A few years back, I had been to several theatres in NYC where the channel configuration was wrong. The center channel was coming out of the left speaker. I complained and the theatre manager gave me the usual "no one has complained" or "it's supposed to be that way" line. I brought him into the theatre and made him listen. I figure the same tech did both theatres and mixed up wire colors or just lazily plugged speaker cables into amps. Or maybe it was just a coincidence.

The strange thing to me is that people love to complain (just check anywhere on the web). But for some strange reason, people don't generally complain in movie theaters (aside from the idiot complaints posted elsewhere here). I went to a theater a few months back in which the image was completely misframed on the screen and it was quite obvious, but I was the only one who complained (and they did fix it right away).

This is nothing new. I've been complaining for decades. But just because people don't complain doesn't mean they enjoyed the experience and whether they realize that consciously or subconsciously, they might go to a theater less as a result. I know I attend less because I almost never get that "OMG, this sounds so great" feeling that I frequently got back in the 70mm 6-track days.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-29-2015, 02:28 PM:

My theory is, people don't generally complain in movie theaters because oftentimes they know there's something wrong, but they don't know what it is, and don't want to sound like an idiot by making a complaint and then not having the employee know what they mean or having the employee say "it seems fine to me." Or maybe they realize something's not "normal" but nothing else appears out of order so they just figure that's the way it's supposed to be.

Whereas if something more obvious happens, like if the sound cuts out, then they can find a manager and say "There is no sound in the theater" and know they can expect a response.

I dunno, that's just my theory. But I can say that since I started working here in 1976 I've never had one person come up and say "There's something wrong, I can't really describe it, but could you take a look?" Every complainer always has a specific complaint to describe.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-29-2015, 05:35 PM:

In addition to that, it's also often VERY hard to get your point across, even if you know what you're talking about. Ever tried to explain something seemingly simple a missing audio channel (other than the center channel) to the average theater manager on charge?

Also, keep in mind that most people actually want to watch the movie they bought their tickets for. If you get up and complain, you might miss several minutes of it and the result is often questionable and nobody is going to rewind it for you (even though with DCI presentations this is perfectly possible). Once the movie is done, people usually don't want to invest the time to notify staff about any problems.

Posted by William Kucharski (Member # 7246) on 04-21-2015, 06:56 PM:

Could also just be the theater.

My local AMC's ETX used to have stomach trembling LFE, but now when you go in it's virtually non-existent.

I was able to corner the manager one day, and she gave me the reason - too many complaints from patrons in adjacent auditoriums, so they turned it way, way down from what the ETX auditorium was originally calibrated to by corporate.

She also mentioned that they turn the overall system volume down a good 5 dB when playing kids' films and often forget to turn it back up when running an action film later in the evening.

Re trying to get your point across, the most unique situation I finally had to drag the manager into the auditorium to experience was something went wrong where every channel was "off by one" - center was coming out of left, right was coming from center, right side surround from right, etc.

They rebooted the system (ten minute delay) and all was good.