Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Barco DP2K-8Sx

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Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 03-28-2015, 09:34 PM:

It looks like Barco has a new (or new-ish) projector I haven't noticed before. It's made for smaller screens, and meant for 26ft wide screens as opposed to the DP2K-10S which went up to 33ft.

Anyone have any experience with the new machine? Or does anyone have any idea how much one of the 8Sx cost compared to a 10s?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2015, 12:17 AM:

The 8S is notably cheaper than the 10S...for no known reason...they are identical except the 8S is limited to 1.6KW lamps (same power supply though). As for screen width, note that all of the manufacturers cheat on that because they base the screen width on gain screens that will prevent you from hitting light uniformity specs. It is about a 6000 lumen projector, depending on the lens.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-29-2015, 03:23 AM:

I've installed quite a few, recently with the Alchemy ICMP on board.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2015, 03:31 AM:

How are you liking (or not) the ICMP (Alchemy) module? How does it stand up to other servers? Any annoying quirks with it?

Posted by Michael Putlack (Member # 6523) on 03-29-2015, 05:01 AM:

Steve,
so if they're cheating, what are the actual max screen widths would you say?

Also, how much cheaper? Are we talking $20k for the 10s and $12k for the 8sx? 20 and 18? What?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 03-29-2015, 05:21 AM:

Using the Christie Calculator - which I found very well made - it seems that 6000 lumens are suitable for 9.9m Scope matte white screen (it seems that Barco did not cheat on the values this time!)

That means that with a brand new projector, brand new lamp, brand new screen, no porthole glass, you'll achieve 14fL on screen.

Hence, you will have to account to colour calibration, glass, screen and equipment ageing, lamp ageing.

Probably a 7/7.5m Scope screen is a more real world figure.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2015, 10:51 AM:

Using my calculations that do allow for aging, color correction and port hole loss...about 23' (7m) wide screen, max.

On the up side, we are finding the DXL-16BAF to be a phenomenal lamp with very good aging properties. I'll admit, we haven't really tested it in the "S" series projectors but in the "C" series it has been an incredible performer...probably close to 80% of the light of the 2KW. It is a very short arc lamp so it is quite efficient.

The last time I checked the Christie speadsheet...it definitely cheated the light a bit...it may have been updated in that time. I normally just use my own since I KNOW it works and it isn't brand specific though it lacks the niceties of telling you which model of lens to select...just the actual TR you need.

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now but it is thousands different than the 10s...and again it is the SAME projector but with a chip that tells it to not operate above 1.6KW.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-29-2015, 01:16 PM:

Yup, there's a significant price difference. £ figures may not correlate with NZ.

Steve, we avoided using it until the frequency of software updates dropped [Wink]

Thus far it's been good. The web UI is clean and simple, the Commander application is better still.
Setup is a little confusing as one does it neither through the web UI or Commander, but through Communicator.

The current RAID size could be limiting for some cinema, but it's easy to get it to work with external storage.

The HDMI port currently doesn't support embedded audio or 4K, I have it on good authority that on the next software release it will support both. I guess the same is true for the Displayport.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2015, 07:36 PM:

Yeah, I got from the release notes that they disabled the audio from HDMI. I have since heard that it had to do with it not working well and it would have drops/robosound. Better to not boast that it works when it doesn't and wait until it is working properly.

So does one have a special shutdown procedure for it like with either GDC's SX3000 or the Doremi IMS1000 where one has to shut down the server before the projector or can one just kill power (or go into sleep mode for the "S" projectors)?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-29-2015, 08:31 PM:

The 8S/Sx is around for over a year now. It is just a 'software-strip-down' of the 10Sx, limited to lower rated lamps. They created it in order to compete with Sonys SRX-R510 and NECs NC900C on the lower end for smaller screens. The difference in price can be as much as 2000-4000US$. It is certainly a bargain, because the build-quality is still the same as the 10Sx, which is a real series-II machine with all options (except, of cause, higher rated lamps ;-)

- Carsten

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 03-30-2015, 03:12 AM:

To be honest I am not 100% on that, we've been following a routine of putting it to sleep before powering down.

That said I have had occasion to crash the power during playback, the GUI reported 'server crashed off' and was ready to where it left off on rebooting.

I'm dealing with one right now that appears to have an ill RAID controller, BUT it had multiple power bumps within minutes of each other.

There's no easy way to connect a UPS on these things. It can be done with a bit of a wiring hack though.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-30-2015, 06:03 AM:

The site I'm considering it for only needs DCP for about 5% of its video performances so the DCinema device needs to be pretty transparent to the projector's user and just be a source. The projector has to have HDMI or HDMI like inputs (DVI/DisplayPort) for the other 95% of their video performances.

If this doesn't handle just projector power downs, I could then see going with something like the DCP2000/2K4 (Doremi) and just use the good old HDSDI approach with something like a DP2K-12C or CP2215...but an 8S or 10S would just fit this job so neatly if the server wasn't a user burden.

Posted by Edgar Prass (Member # 7558) on 03-30-2015, 07:28 AM:

Steve, what sort of external storage can be used with the Alchemy board?

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 03-30-2015, 04:28 PM:

With the launch of the 10s is there any reason for the 12c. The 10s can even take a slightly brighter lamp. The 12c does have the better chip with slightly better contrast.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-31-2015, 06:45 AM:

Oh yeah...the 12C is a notably better projector in many ways.

It is more light efficient. It literally costs you DOUBLE to light a 10S to almost as bright as a 12C (a 2.2KW lasts half as long as a 2KW and the 12C gets to about 9500 lumens on a 2KW versus the 10S running a 2.2KW at about 9000 lumens). The 12C can use the 2.2KW lamp so it now has a top of range at nearly 11,000 lumens (that 2.2KW lamp is a very short arc so it will be notably more light efficient than other lamps).

The 12C has HDCP compliant DVI inputs, the 10S relies on an IMB to supply such inputs which means the server must become part of non DCP shows

The 12C has a notably better contrast ratio

The 12C can use a UPS on the electronics (without having to do non-authorized rewiring)

The 12C lensing has better repeatability on their presets.

If you are in a complex with other B or C projectors, your component interchangeability is higher for fewer spare types to keep on hand.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 05-27-2015, 06:40 PM:

As usual, I'm here without the tech skills, You Guys have, but from a users view, the DP 2K-8S made my smallest screen live on, when 35mm disappeared totally from Denmark and I hadn't got the Money for another Kinoton 30SX.
The tiny Barco is more than sufficient for those only 3,75 meter Width (both ws and cs - moveable top and buttom masking instead) - and working perfect since november 2013.... -and then: one drawback only - but qiute a serious one, though: The contrast is really poor. Not only when running the same film on both screens, but also in the everyday situation, I'm most disappointed with the end result. Only Photo buffs amongst audience mentions it, but one is one too many.
Reliable it is, though, and as everywhere else: I've got, what I could afford, and what I payed for, I guess.
Malling Bio, Screen 2 - 39 seats
Barco DP2K-8S, Dolby Cat 745, DSS 220 and CP 750
Throw: 9 meters Width: 3,75 meters.
What puzles me, is that the Barco has 1,850:1 contrast ratio, and the Kinoton in Screen 1 2,000:1 Should that difference be the problem ?
And that, Gentlemen, was the resume from the far-out Danish countryside, ground user knowledge.

Greetings !

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-28-2015, 05:54 AM:

I think the 1:1850 doesn't hold true. I measured the NEC NC900 to be more like 1250:1. The Barco could have a bit more, but I think these 1850:1 is actually a fake in order to have the 0.69 S2k pass DCI compliance testing. ;-)

You seem to have plenty of light left. Maybe Barco offers aperture plates for this machine as well. You could certainly sacrifice some brightness for some added contrast. Also you should balance light level/choose bulb type for this small screen size as carefully as possible. Don't go beyond 14fL.

I know Alan Gouger once added his own aperture plate to a Barco 4k lens. It was quite effective, and it wasn't too complicated, bus that lens was built to take one. For the tiny 0.69 lenses, I doubt this is possible. But you should ask Barco about it.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2015, 06:38 AM:

Ushio now has the DXL-9BAF lamp (850-watts) for smaller screens so you start with less light. There are also ND filters to knock light down. Also, one can use a grey screen if the light is still too much and consider having a screen that has the falloff characteristic of a 1.3 gain screen to help hide the contrast issue.

Make no mistake, all of the S2K projectors (regardless of brand) have low contrast (visibly so). Thus far, I've noticed it most on the NC900 but I have not made any extensive study on the subject. It is just accepted that with an S2K (which the DP2K-8S is) you will have lower contrast. It is intrinsic to the chip design (1/4 of a 4K chip). And yes, the 4K projectors have lower contrast than their 2K counterparts too!

I believe Barco has LUT-SCC files (Spacial Color Correction) for the S2K (I know they do for the 4Ks but not for the normal 2Ks) that may help.

In the end though...you do get what you pay for. The lesser projectors are lesser in many respects. And don't think that the upcoming blue-phosphorus lasers will help in any significant way with contrast ratio either. There may be a slight improvement but no night/day difference. Thus far, NEC is the first out with the NC1100L and check out its Contrast Ratio spec compared to the NC900...almost no change.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-28-2015, 08:15 AM:

You don't say what your screen brightness is, if over spec the contrast does look worse because the black level is not very black.
The S projectors, and other small chip ones, have less contrast than the C or (especially) B 2K projectors. Possibly that's why Barco removed the physical dowser and use chip blanking - the residual light would be more noticeable when a real dowser opened.
You don't say what Kinoton you have but I expect it is a .98" DMD model. Comparing that to the S will definitely show the reduced contrast of the smaller DMDs. If you have a 1.4" 2K DLP Kinoton the difference will be extreme.
I would work at getting full white to 14 ft-L if it's too high. A smaller lamp or defocussing will reduce light level.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2015, 10:08 AM:

Kinoton never "made" a .98" version. All of theirs were based on the Barco "B" light engines.

That said, he did either state or imply his other projector(s) is/are Kinoton 30SX. This makes it the "equivalent" to a DP2K-19B if it is an 30SX II.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-28-2015, 01:39 PM:

What Dave say. What is your light level on screen?

Steve, how does a 1.3 gain screen increase contrast ratio?

Also, I guess contrast ratio is measured in perfect conditions (pitch black room, no reflections whatsoever) and pointing the meter towards the lens.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2015, 01:51 PM:

If you look at the distribution on a gain screen, it will give the illusion of increasing contrast because the further off axis, the lower the light level so the blacks (well greys in this case) will also follow that curve. As such, it will be less noticeable.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-28-2015, 04:15 PM:

I am not sure I can agree on that. Yes, blacks will be blacker but whites will be less bright as well. Contrast is white/black, hence contrast does not change.
Even subjectively I am not sure that this is seen as an increase in contrast.
I hate high gain screens, I cannot remember noticing ANY benefit at all when looking at one.

Posted by Per Hauberg (Member # 529) on 05-28-2015, 04:24 PM:

Thanks, Gents -
No doubt - One gets, what one's able to pay for...
First thing, when back from a short vacation, will be to get hands on a meter.
I'll be back !

Per

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2015, 05:06 PM:

Marco,

As I said, it "appears" to have higher contrast. The notion of a grey screen giving higher contrast is silly too...they help in high ambient light if you have enough projector brightness to overcome the screen.

As for appearance, compare a 1.3 gain to a 1.0 gain picture some day, the 1.3 gain almost always appears "snappier". Furthermore, if you check out the SMPTE/DCI specs for light on the sides versus center, you can only achieve it with something along the lines of a 1.2-1.3 gain (It isn't a "minimum" spec but a desired level on the sides).

Me personally, I like matte white screens like the Stewart Snomatte 100. My next favorite is the Stewart Ultramatte 130. They aren't practical (price wise) for a commercial cinema though. I've noted as screens tip towards 1.4 gain and beyond, they get REALLY gaining in appearance.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-28-2015, 05:31 PM:

I see what you mean but I still do not agree. I have plenty of experience with perlux and Silver screens and I simply hate them. I don't find the picture more snappy. This is my personal view of course.

I believe DCI asks for a max of -10% for sides which is rarely achieved. A high gain screen will worsen that in my experience, the most even light is achieved with a matte screen. Do I understand correctly what you mean?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2015, 09:16 PM:

I was going to point out that the Harkness Perlux are particularly nasty in the 1.4 and above screens. And all silver screens suck. If you ever see a Stewart Ultramatte 130, you'll see that it can look pretty incredible.

The MDI 1.5 hasn't looked particularly bad to me but clearly won't hit DCI spec on the sides (if flat). I haven't seen a Severtson low-gain yet but am interested since they too have a 1.3.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-29-2015, 03:29 AM:

What's the price tag of the screen you mention?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-29-2015, 05:33 AM:

Stewart is typically 4-5 times the price of a "standard" screen of the MDI/Harkness/Severtson. Their gain is spot on, are seamless and won't morie. They also are the only ones that have a roll-down screen that looks like a fixed install screen when it is down. If desired, complete with masking for every format you could want. If you want a roll-down in the 40-foot wide range with full automatic masking...be prepared for something over $100,000! For fixed screens, it is not unusual for screening room sized screens to be in the 15-20K range (USD).

As I said, crazy expensive.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-29-2015, 06:23 AM:

You can buy a Barco P machine and use a Matte screen then! [Smile]

Posted by Jon Augustyn (Member # 7644) on 06-18-2015, 04:02 PM:

Is Sony 510 sold in US? If so, any idea how much?