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Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 03-29-2015, 04:51 PM:
 
I've heard different things for a while now but with Sony apparently halting development on their laser D-Cinema projector
I wonder if anyone has some insight into what the future will hold for Sony's Digital Cinema department, do we know if they have any plans for a "5th generation" projector?
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-29-2015, 05:41 PM:
 
I guess the future of the entire Sony corporation is a rather interesting one. The whole conglomerate of businesses hasn't seen a profit in many years so all their departments and subsidiaries are probably under evaluation.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-29-2015, 07:46 PM:
 
If history is any teacher...their long-term prospects for projection in cinemas doesn't look good. As the DCinema conversion is winding down their perspective sales are pretty bleak (true for DLP too but at least they have three major manufacturers competing for that piece of the pie)
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-29-2015, 08:12 PM:
 
Why would 'three competing' companies make their situation any better?

The situation after the final stage of the digital rollout is complicated for all companies in that area. They needed to establish high-output manufacturing processes for a couple of years, and knew that they would face a fast decline at some point.

However, I think all four companies can deal with that, because the cinema business was only one of their product segments. Also, the same factory that builds Sonys digital cinema projectors builds other professional production gear. It's a modular part-time fab.

What makes things even more complicated to judge for Sony is their cross-market 4k/UHD marketing. They want to sell 4k to consumers, gamers, cinemas, production companies, etc. That's why they want to produce 4k movies as well to sustain that approach.

We should also not forget that all companies went into 10year warranty commitments, so they are obliged to support their product at least as long as that.

Frankly I couldn't care less about laser projection. It is either too expensive or nothing more than a buzz-word-item (in the form of phosphor-conversion devices).

When you scroll back in this forum, you will find similar discussions about the future of NEC, BARCO, or TI's DLP division as a whole.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-30-2015, 04:30 AM:
 
Unless a cheaper and/or far better technology comes around that can replace it, there's no reason to expect TI's DLP to go away anytime soon.

Sony's tech is built around their proprietary LCoS implementation called SXRD. There's currently no other major player licensing this technology from them, so all investments into this technology have to be recouped with their own product portfolio. If they decide to stop investing money in this technology, it's essentially over for their digital cinema products too. It also makes it harder for them to spin it off or sell it to one of their competitors or any other player wanting to get into the niche market of Ditigal Cinema.

Christie and Barco both specialize in professional visualization products for niche markets and the cinema products of NEC, Barco and Christie are all built around a very common TI reference platform. Both Barco and Christie offer models in which the only notable difference between the DCI model and the "professional" model is the interface card configuration. So, for them, the costs of being and staying in this niche are rather minimal, it's part of their natural evolution of many of their core products.

But even if any one of those big players decides to discontinue their digital cinema projector products, they could easily sell or transfer it to any other big player in the DLP market space, like e.g. Panasonic.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-30-2015, 06:06 AM:
 
The three DLP companies have effectively created the lion's share of the market for DLP...Sony only has Sony to keep its hand in the market and they took a winner-take-all approach to their sales/installation. What is Sony's percentage of the installed base? That is what they have to work with.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-30-2015, 07:40 AM:
 
Sonys numbers are around 18.000 4k screens. That is a lot less than TI-DLP. But it's more than NEC. Plus - Sony get's ALL the revenue from every installed system - display-technology, Projector, server, and service/parts. They do not have to pay TI their OEM share or split the revenue with a server manufacturer. Market share is not the major point here. Margin is. And Sony has a lot of hard to calculate intra-company processes going, e.g. as I wrote previously, their company-wide 4k strategy.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-30-2015, 08:23 AM:
 
Yeah, that's all true. But do we know if this subdivision of the "pro" division is actually making any money for them? That's usually where the decision making process starts.

Also, it will be interesting to see what kind of company they want to be in the future. Do they still want to do a little bit of everything (which seemingly isn't turning out great for them) or do they want to focus on some key products in some key markets? And if so, what markets will those be?
 

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Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 03-30-2015, 08:59 AM:
 
Carsten, are you saying Sony's 18,000 is greater than all NEC (DCI) or just greater than their 4K's?

Could the industry changing over to 4K altogether be a major revenue driver?
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 03-30-2015, 10:12 AM:
 
A continued migration to 4K will be a driver for the industry, no doubt, but obviously slower rate as with the looming extinction of 35mm film.

As for Sony, they're already at 4K for each and every deployment, so for them it's either lasers, 8K or nothing as an incentive to upgrade.
 

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Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 03-30-2015, 04:10 PM:
 
I know there are some other intermediate upgrades that I've heard about over the years, new HDSDI technology that will enable I think 4K HFR (maybe it was 4K 3D HFR), though the RealD system would also need to be upgraded

Obviously they're not going to shutter their operations overnight but even if Laser is just a buzz word it still seems like ceasing development can't be a good thing. But who knows maybe that was just a rumor and we'll see a new system from them at the end of next month at Cinemacon

Are there still developments to be made with the quality of the DLP/LCoS chips or are higher resolutions going to be achieved through different means?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-30-2015, 05:08 PM:
 
There's a major european Sony representative giving a speech about Sonys laser projector development mid-may on a cinema trade-fair here. I don't think they are announcing this in order for him to say 'We're not doing it'. What this guy told me last year was that they are looking for the right business model for them and the exhibitors. LIPs now come into the market after literally all screens have been converted to Xenon or UHP DCI. Of course there will always be a need for new gear replacing old gear, and there is a need for brighter and better 3D on the largest screens for sure. But these are very small numbers compared to what drove the digital rollout during the last 5-8 years.

Sure, Sonys SXRD is limited in screen size as long as they run xenon, and laser would allow them to go for the largest screens. They could have done it easily, they had laser projector prototypes running in public back in 2005,

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news_archives/img/pdf/vol_40/sideview40.pdf

and public DCI LIP prototype back in 2012 (just as the DLP companies).

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/laser-light-engines-sony-present-first-public-demonstrati on-high-brightness-laser-3d-nyse-sne-1642593.htm

They sell phosphor conversion laser projectors in the business projector market for two years now, as well as consumer 4k laser projectors:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/show-projectors/resource.solutions.bbsccms-assets-show-projectors-laserprojectorslanding page.shtml

http://www.sony.net/Products/4k-ultra-short-throw/

Sony even makes their own high power laser engines. To me this looks as if they sure can do it, but don't see a valuable business model around it currently in the DCI market. LIPs do make sense in the presentation projector market, hence Sony makes and sells them there.

What could actually drive considerable numbers of new DCI LIPs to be sold within the next couple of years? Maybe Sony acts quite sensible here.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 03-31-2015, 12:47 AM:
 

quote:

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Sony's tech is built around their proprietary LCoS implementation called SXRD. There's currently no other major player licensing this technology from them, so all investments into this technology have to be recouped with their own product portfolio. If they decide to stop investing money in this technology, it's essentially over for their digital cinema products too. It also makes it harder for them to spin it off or sell it to one of their competitors or any other player wanting to get into the niche market of Ditigal Cinema.

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Two things come to mind re: Sony and their future in D-Cinema:

Betamax

and

SDDS



Their history of not licensing their technologies to other manufacturers (which is why VHS, a technically inferior format, won out over Beta with it's higher resolution (and stereo sound from day one IIRC)) is why they will not survive in the D-Cinema world. The higher operational costs with Sony gear, and their refusal (if it is still going on) to allow anyone other than their limited number of Sony techs to repair the equipment is why so few players bought into Sony gear.

And let's not forget SDDS.... and how rapidly they just dumped all support like a rock. Too bad, because SDDS did (to my ears anyway) sound better than Dolby or DTS/DataSat.

I just don't get why a company with such a readily recognizable brand name (and in most cases, very good to excellent equipment) cannot learn from history and quit making the same stupid mistakes...is it corporate decision making at the worst, or cultural arrogance?
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 03-31-2015, 05:04 AM:
 
Sony stopped selling SDDS equipment when it was evident that Dolby and DTS won that format war. But they supported the system until last year. They had a full position dedicated to only SDDS support until 2013, they supplied parts and maintained the SDDS website until then. And they supplied SDDS prints.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-02-2015, 05:46 AM:
 
I don't think Sony will stop honoring their commitments to their install base, even if they were to discontinue their D-Cinema lineup. Like Carsten already put it, they also honored their SDDS commitments years after the product was essentially dead in the water.

I guess Sony will have a harder time to get their LCoS based technology to reliably work in combination with high-power laser light sources. LCD based technology is quite sensitive to heat.

Where they might have an advantage though is in achieving higher resolutions. I guess it will be simpler to increase the resolution of a device based solely on a traditional silicon substrate production process, compared to a device with millions of microscopic mechanical parts, like DLP.
 

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Posted by Jason Metcalfe (Member # 5739) on 04-02-2015, 10:07 AM:
 
So I was forwarded a white paper, and I don't think this information is really that secret so I'm going to restate some of it here, but if that's a problem we can take this post down:

Sony basically published a small whitepaper/brouchure last summer that I'm sure many of you saw, basically stating that the path to a "direct coupled" laser light source is hindered by:
- availability of green laser diodes (~2016)
- govt. regulation classifying laser light source projectors as a "high powered laser light show", necessitating special approval before operation
- repayment cycle for initial digital conversion, which is ongoing and would de-incentivize theaters from investing in this upgrade

So they may very well be unveiling some new technologies in the next few months but it just doesn't seem like they are convinced it's worthwhile to develop this

Also their non-cinema laser light source projectors apparently use a different technology that isn't perfectly transferable to their cinema line

And I'm assuming all of this is in contrast to some of the other manufacturers who are using fiber to "pipe" the light from what sounds like an enclosed light source to the chip
 

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Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-02-2015, 06:49 PM:
 
The BPP (Blue Pump Phosphor) light source using a blue light source and a phosphor disk to reproduce the remaining light color spectrum; NEC is using this in the NC1100L-A digital cinema projector. This light source is being used by Sony for corporate AV work and Barco has a line of projectors using this source.

Cinemeccanica has a laser source to allow retrofit to DLP machines….the marketplace will supply options since history repeats itself.
 

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 04-03-2015, 05:52 AM:
 

quote: Richard Fowler

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Cinemeccanica has a laser source to allow retrofit to DLP machines….the marketplace will supply options since history repeats itself.

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quote: Tony Bandiera

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ßetamax...and stereo sound from day one

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Like Carsten already put it, they also honored their SDDS commitments years after the product was essentially dead in the water.

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Actually there was a very very long period where no sprockets for either penthouse were available. We resorted to having LaVezzi make those for us from a still good sample. When the actual Sony made sprockets finally arrived some 9 or 10 months later we sent them back. So all in all support for SDDS in this country was way less than adequate.

Mark
 

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Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-04-2015, 04:02 PM:
 
Carsten, Marcel and Mitchell, thank you for the corrections. Old age does bad things to one's memory.

Still, Sony does have a track record worse than Dolby when it comes to product support IMHO. I recall Mark G and someone else familiar with the Sony broadcast line mentioning terrible support.

Sony's LCoS does produce a great quality image though, A former client has one and the 4k (and 2k) image is awesome to say the least. BUT, the IMB and the projector itself have had constant issues requiring costly service calls. Not so good.
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-04-2015, 04:24 PM:
 
Perhaps my experiences have been unusual, but I have had a few occasions to call Sony's broadcast division with questions and they have always been very helpful to me (as has Dolby's cinema division). I have never dealt with Sony's cinema division and have no idea if their reputation is deserved.
 

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Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 04-04-2015, 07:59 PM:
 

quote:

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- govt. regulation classifying laser light source projectors as a "high powered laser light show", necessitating special approval before operation

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quote: Lyle Romer

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Will a retrofit still get the gains in contrast level?

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Actually there was a very very long period where no sprockets for either penthouse were available. We resorted to having LaVezzi make those for us from a still good sample. When the actual Sony made sprockets finally arrived some 9 or 10 months later we sent them back. So all in all support for SDDS in this country was way less than adequate.

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quote: Scott Norwood

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I have never dealt with Sony's cinema division and have no idea if their reputation is deserved.

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quote: Tony Bandiera Jr

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Their history of not licensing their technologies to other manufacturers (which is why VHS, a technically inferior format, won out over Beta with it's higher resolution (and stereo sound from day one IIRC)) is why they will not survive in the D-Cinema world.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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I actually have a BVH-1000 here at home that still runs perfectly.

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And you use it to watch all your eighties sitcoms and TV series to get that authentic feel?

quote: Bobby Henderson

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Sony has, at times, licensed out their technology to other manufacturers.

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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Yea, at one point in time I had about 50 SDDS to deal with. The alumnium sprockets are the first part to wear out. The lateral guides the nest part. SDDS was crap from the get go.

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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They never licensed SDDS to other manufacturers, but they did license the compression technology behind it: ATRAC.

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quote: Brad Miller

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But what baffles me more is when we order bulbs for the 515s and find out that they are on backorder. This I just don't understand

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quote:

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Biggest advangate of this projector IMHO are the lamps. There are no multi thousand dollar glass reflector, or heat filter in this projector. Each lamp assembly has it's own internal reflector. If a lamp blows... so what! Unplug it and plug in a new one... even while the show is running. You can basically let your lamps run till the light level is no longer adaquate [sp]. Lamps have a 3000 hour warranty and have been proven in other NEC projectors in the past. There are a few installation of it in Florida that are comfortably running on just one lamp!

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quote: Marcel Birgelen

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Wouldn't this equally apply to the exiting solutions from Barco, Christie and IMAX? I've not yet heard about special permits being required for those, but I might be missing something.

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quote:

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A few other high-end cinemas with deep pockets have signed up, notably the IMAX chain, whose staple 70mm film projectors are now rather dated. But there is no sign of a mass shift to lasers. The obstacles are not purely financial. At the moment, special licences must be obtained from the Food and Drug Administration, which imposes additional requirements on staff.

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