Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: GDC support policy

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Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-08-2015, 09:24 AM:

I was told GDC would not provide any support assistance to out-of-warranty servers: no troubleshooting help, period. They will gladly sell parts if you like to do "hope this is the problem" replacement of expensive non-returnable parts.
That seems extreme. Possibly Dolby has or will have the same policy but Doremi has always helped out as much as they could regardless of warranty status.
GDC will, naturally, sell you a warranty extension. I haven't got prices yet. I told an owner (warranty expiring this month) and he asked what the Doremi policy is. I haven't asked Dolby about that yet.
I know all d-cinema suppliers have drastically reduced volumes now that the conversion has wrapped up and have to reduce costs, but a policy that drives customers to the competition (assuming they don't all start this) doesn't make sense to me.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 04-08-2015, 12:20 PM:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that cinema techs are not allow full (root) access to GDC servers, and the logs are also encrypted such that nobody other than GDC can read them.

A policy where GDC won't offer any assistance turns the machine into a unrepairable black box.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-09-2015, 12:42 AM:

That seems like an unusual policy. I'm not a fan of GDC servers in general, but the one thing I'll give them props on is their support guys. Always helpful and friendly.

Barco is guilty of a similar issue. If the techs don't take their level 2 course every 2 (or maybe it's 3) years, they are no longer authorized to diagnose equipment and order warranty parts, etc. It's as if all of a sudden on a certain day...POW, the service techs forgot how to work with them. [Roll Eyes]

In reality it's just a source of "forced revenue".

Posted by Justin Hamaker (Member # 2165) on 04-09-2015, 02:50 AM:

I've run up against this a couple times in the last year, and I think it will start to be a bigger issue as more equipment falls out of warranty. I do know our supplier was able to get us highly reduced cost extended warranties, which is good insurance against expensive equipment failures - such as ICP boards.

Because the servers really require a technician to do the service, I think we're going to see more companies offering service contracts so that theatres have access to tech support, even if the parts are not under warranty.

One thing I have learned from GDC is they are now treating hard drives as consumables, rather than parts. I'm not exactly sure what this means in terms of warranty and service, but it does make sense. Hard drives have an expected life, and with all the writing and erasing that goes on with a D Cinema array, I think disk failures are to be expected every couple years.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-09-2015, 08:03 AM:

That's news to me. They always help me with my issue, and only ask for a serial number to look up warranty status if phone troubleshooting doesn't resolve the issue and I need to send the server in for repair. If they were only going to provide phone support under warranty, the serial number of the server would be the first thing they ask for, or so I would think.

quote: Brad Miller
One thing I'll give them props on is their support guys. Always helpful and friendly.

I absolutely agree. They've always been eager to help resolve any issue, and are quite friendly. There are a couple guys in particular I really enjoy talking to.

quote: Justin Hamaker
One thing I have learned from GDC is they are now treating hard drives as consumables, rather than parts. I'm not exactly sure what this means in terms of warranty and service, but it does make sense.

What it means is that hard drives are not covered under warranty. Even if your server is still under warranty, if you have a hard drive failure, you will have to replace the drive. I know this applies to RAID drives. I've never had an OS drive failure, so I don't know if it applies there as well, but a hard drive is a hard drive so I would imagine it does. Can anyone confirm?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-09-2015, 10:29 AM:

Though I have no confirmation on this, I would presume they are letting the HDD manufacturer warranty cover the HDD and I can actually understand that. They are consumables as are any electromechanical device.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-09-2015, 11:32 AM:

The way it works is EXACTLY like Dolby and Doremi did it and it's pretty simple. You get a warranty for X number of years and after that you have to pay to get it fixed. In the case of GDC you got a very generous 3 year warranty that also included remote support any time you needed it. Dolby NEVER even offered the latter remote support as part of the initial warranty but Doremi would remote in if you had issues. You had to send Dolby your error logs and wait for a reply. Once the warranty expires you are on your own just as you are with THE NOW single other company.

You can still get firmware and buy parts just like that other company sells parts for theirs. You can even send your server to GDC for refurbishment and repair just like that other company would repair their gear if you send it in.

With GDC you ALSO have the option to extend your warranty which I do not believe is a feature the other company even offers. It costs ~800.00 per year per server or 4800.00 for a six plex. You can extend how ever many you wan to. This extended warranty is 100% coverage including the remote support, hard drives... media block and all. BUT... and it's a big BUT... you have to re-up the warranty just before the original 3 year warranty expires. If you wait till after the warranty expires you can still re-up but you loose media block coverage. This version of the extended warranty still covers the server proper and remote support. It's not really a bad deal for the average 4 or 6 plex but once you get into re-upping a dozen or more servers you're better off to bank the money and just buy parts or get it repaired like everyone else is having to do.

All of my 3 to 8 screen theaters do this and GDC has also allowed them to pay for this extended warranty over several month time period. Chains I service with lots of screens just bank the money and buy the parts. A media block is ~5800.00.

NEC Extended Warranty is similar. Overall at ~$2200.00 a year it's not such a great deal for a large chain. For small twins and single screens it's pretty good insurance. NEC also must be re-upped before the warranty expires or you're SOL for the remainder of the life of the projector.

Mark

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-09-2015, 01:45 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
This extended warranty is 100% coverage including the remote support, hard drives... media block and all.

Either GDC offers different extended warranty packages, or this is simply not true. Every time I've had a hard drive failure, after providing the server s/n to GDC I was told that the hard drives are not covered under extended warranty and we had to purchase them.

By "remote support," are you specifically referring to GDC logging in to your site to look at stuff on the server? What about phone support, as Dave mentions in his original post? I can't imagine that GDC would not answer questions or provide guidance over the phone or even over email.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-09-2015, 05:32 PM:

I have never had cause to call on a non-functioning out of warranty unit yet, so can't answer that. All my customers were told 100% coverage. I do have one out of warranty unit where the clock has drifted. They won't send a time correction script unless the warranty is extended or the unit is sent back in for repair. This is still running non DCI firmware but installing DCI compliant firmware won't necessarily fix that because the time really needs to be correct before updating to DCI anyway. This stuff isn't rocket science and is generally pretty easy to fix. You have dual supplies, a motherboard and some RAM and hard drives...

Mark

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-09-2015, 06:03 PM:

While I have heard good things about GDC tech support I have to say not helping set the clock after the warranty expires is a bit nit picky. The other company has a script one can run as administrator to set the cat 745 clock. Also their tech support has helped with DSS 100 problems long after support officially stopped. Told me specifically what motherboard is used and also sent me the custom BIOS they used for it. I was able to resurrect a DSS 100 with this.

Posted by Dennis Benjamin (Member # 1137) on 04-09-2015, 07:23 PM:

My only complaint about G.D.C. at this point - is that the support staff doesn't directly answer the phone anymore. You have to leave a message and wait for them to call back.

Other than that they have been extremely helpful when I've needed help. Whether something is out of warranty or not only comes up when we need to replace a part.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-09-2015, 08:57 PM:

It just depends on what time of the day you call Dennis. They get busy just like every one else as the day goes on. The longest I have had to wait for a call back is about 30 minutes which is certainly reasonable. You may also get faster response if you email them...

No argument on the time script. I think that's stupid too.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-10-2015, 06:16 AM:

With respect to clock drift...why not give it an NTP source? The GDC will jump to the right time once it sees the NTP clock. If you are on non DCI software (7.8.x), then the BIOS clock is the clock reference. So it is a matter of getting that set first. Once set, you can make the jump to DCI (build 186 is pretty stable) and then the mediablock becomes the secure clock. Again, an NTP time source will address the clock issue...forever.

But let me get this straight...you rag on Dolby for having their software maintenance (needing KDMs) after their "generous" 3-year warranty...of which you are under no obligation to update to whatever new features came out 3-years after you bought it (never mind that every Dolby server was given KDMs 4.4...even older than 3-year units and with a "compatibility" clause to ensure varying aged units would work together if newer units were still under 3-years...but GDC is "allowed" to not get a clock to work via some script? That sounds to me like if they had thought of the KDM thing, they would have used it by now.

As to service...remember, GDC has held the log thing pretty tight. Dolby's logs have always been human readable and though there is no hand holding, like anything else, you can start to decipher them the more you look. Dolby Tech Support will also guide you on that. Conversely, GDC goes out of their way to create a compressed file that only they can open. And yes, they do an excellent job of helping...I hope it continues because that is one of the "sells" of GDC...their Tech Support is tops and I doubt many people would argue that.

Not calling tech support and getting someone right then and there isn't a big deal to me. I almost always start by pulling the logs of the device and sending to the manufacturer so they have something to look at BEFORE I start the conversation. GDC has always responded in a timely manner. Any IMB install that needed a serial number configuration was VERY prompt. Absolutely an A+ response.

The realities are that it costs money to have software engineers to keep coding. Personally, I think software that runs on just your hardware is what sells your hardware...the hardware is the sell...the software enables that sale so it should be included. Has any Blu-Ray player company charged for any update to ensure their player would play the latest Blu-Ray oddity?

$800/year for a server is a bit steep, in my opinion. The big cost item is the mediablock/IMB/IMS. Warranty should be on the order of 1/10 the cost of that item. Think of it as buying the expensive thing on the 10-year payment plan. Once you get too much more expensive than that, you were better off just taking your chances. In most plexes, once you get to the 3rd screen, you were better off not getting the warranty. So, if you spend $2400/year on warranty, in less than 3-years, you would have bought a media block...do you plan to lose a mediablock every year or two? If so, it is pretty shoddy equipment.

Likewise with projectors. The big ticket is the light engine. Most projector warranties make sense for 3 screens and under and 3 screens is questionable. But if you are a single with a 4K projector...spending less than $3K/year on a warranty is a safe bet...sure you could have bought a light engine in less than 10-years but could you cough up that much cash on no-notice? You also typically get the 24/7 availability if you are in warranty.

I am curious if mediablocks/IMBs are going to be repairable items. They multilayer boards built with the intent of keeping people out are probably not very serviceable. We've had one DSP100 fail and it WAS serviced. But I could see where IMBs would be a bear.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-15-2015, 01:38 PM:

Does Dolby / Doremi deliver a replacement server to your door overnight if you's fails? Of course they don't. But GDC will if your unit is under warranty. And as a result you will have very little down time if there is a major malfunction. You'd better have a spare server around if you run Dolby or the other brands because they will repair yours if you send it in... while you wait.

Is $800.00 too much? Not for that kind of service if you're a small guy. Small guy's can't afford to have spare servers sitting around.

Mark

Posted by Stephan Shelley (Member # 8587) on 04-15-2015, 06:13 PM:

Dolby has always done repair exchanges for stuff under warranty for me. Out of warranty it is fix yours.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-16-2015, 05:40 AM:

Yup...if it is in warranty (and that is 3-years for Dolby too)...and yes, they send it out overnight. I've had exactly one server that needed it because a power supply died and turned the inside of the server into what looked like a road flare had gone off.

All of our other servers from Dolby...still going. In terms of reliability, the Dolby DSS line is really second to none.

Posted by Jay Glaus (Member # 6011) on 04-27-2015, 02:20 AM:

A week ago I heard someone refer to a server as a wearable part when comparing it to the projector.

I realize hard drives wear out and need replaced, but for the cost of some of these things, the physical server should not be a wearable part! I mean we're not talking about an intermittent sprocket or tension band here.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-27-2015, 06:27 AM:

The server has a fair number of electromechanical parts...all, by definition, wearable. Since they all move air they all move dirt too. As dirt accumulates, temperatures rise and damage eventually happens to the components within. The lead-free solders also don't hold up as well as the leaded ones and can cause issues.

I don't think there is any hard and fast rules for the server lifetimes. It is more for the hard drives, fans and batteries that have more of a life-cycle to them. That said, the mediablocks do tend to run hot so they are going through thermal cycles that likely age them a bit.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-27-2015, 11:25 AM:

The less thermal cycles any electronic part goes through the better. Leave it on and forget about it. Wide thermal cycling is the number 1 killer of electronic components. Media blocks have devices that run at 60 deg. C. or above!!

Mark