Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: New Barco UHP S2k projector for smallest screens

This is topic New Barco UHP S2k projector for smallest screens in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-23-2015, 07:43 PM:

http://www.barco.com/en/Products-Solutions/Projectors/Digital-cinema-projectors/Compa ct-DLP-Barco-Alchemy-Cinema-projector-for-screens-up-to-75m-24ft-wide.aspx

Twin 465W UHP lamps and Alchemy IMS. Also seems to be a very light and quiet machine. Maybe a better buy now than NECs NC900C.

Wow, seems Barco suddenly lost their disgust for UHP lamps. As long as only their competitors used them, they were never good enough for digital cinema.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-24-2015, 02:21 PM:

I look forward to that. I'd be nice to have the usual Barco features on a UHP machine. Hopefully they have found a way to make the light level and colours stable over time?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-24-2015, 03:59 PM:

The only downside is 200-250VAC. The NEC can plug in to a normal outlet I think?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-24-2015, 04:07 PM:

I actually prefer a projector run on 220 volts, so that isn't really detrimental. The NEC can run on 120 or 220 and I have them set up both ways. 120 volts at full lamp power the thing draws a little over ten amps. ON 220 volts it's 5.8 amnps. I normally use a 220 volt UPS which gives a longer run time because the equipment is drawing half the power.

The real down side to this Barco is you are stuck with the Barco IMS. I guess they had to come up with a way to sell those!

quote: Marco Giustini
Hopefully they have found a way to make the light level and colours stable over time?

I haven't seen any big issues with the NEC's in that regard. They actually hold the light level amazingly well. As for color space... on all these projectors you are changing out the reflector, so that spec is going to vary. I recently had a University that wanted an NC-900 and I told them to also buy a color space meter as well. Also, the lamp failure issue is fixed and there are no more of the original style lamp in anyone's stock.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-24-2015, 04:19 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
They actually hold the light level amazingly well

I disagree. Massively.
There is no 'feedback' on the 900 and the light level drops noticeably after a while - as expected. Colours are very stable though.

Also, what is a "colour space meter"?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-24-2015, 04:43 PM:

For rentals it's a big plus to be able to use a 120V supply here.

... Presumably that's a color measuring tool to recalibrate the MCGD after a lamp (and reflector) change. I believe that the USL PCA-100 is a special type designed for xenon light sources and should not be relied on for laser or UHP/HID light sources.

Posted by Andrew Thomas (Member # 7000) on 06-24-2015, 04:50 PM:

Any idea on how it compares price wise to the NEC? I'm in the process of designing my new house and want to have a D-cinema projector in the purpose built cinema wing and my screen will be in the 16-18 foot wide range, so one of these baby projectors would be perfect.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-24-2015, 05:06 PM:

Interesting, this machine has a rated contrast of 1500:1, the 8S is rated 1850:1.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 06-24-2015, 05:55 PM:

Yes, less light and no xenon lamp to light it goves less contrast probably. Also, 4800lumens in DCI mode is not so great for 7m wide screen, even with 1.2 gain as in specs.

But if we sacrifice some light, it would be great entry for art houses where price cutting is on first place, and still to have dci capable machine.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-24-2015, 07:30 PM:

I never thought Barco would at this stage (post-rollout) come up with another machine smaller than the 8Sx. That one is already a software-limited version of the 10Sx. That UHP Barco needs to be considerably cheaper than the 8Sx. I expect it to be in the price range of the NEC NC900C. I don't consider the Alchemy IMS a bad option. This is Barcos future flagship IMS and will certainly be a solid solution, they are constantly improving it. By any means, better than the IMS1000.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-25-2015, 02:03 AM:

Brightness and contrast ratio shouldn't be related. II guess they sacrificed a little contrast for some more light.

Anything is better than the IMS1000.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-25-2015, 05:45 AM:

Anything? How about the IMB S2?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-25-2015, 10:48 AM:

Dave McCauley,

The NC-900 is filtered before the light engine to approximate a xenon light source. The USL meter works fine for the NC-900, like all projectors you are still shooting for .314/.351, at least I hope you are. Now, if you pull that filter out of the path the USL meter goes out of range. Far as I know all projectors running UHP lamps have the filter in the light path.

How is a 220 volt projector detrimental to rental? You have a special cord that plugs into two 120 volt outlets on two separate circuits. I do that all the time. I just thought I should state the obvious.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-25-2015, 12:44 PM:

quote:
The real down side to this Barco is you are stuck with the Barco IMS. I guess they had to come up with a way to sell those!

I guess it was bound to happen sometime...Mark and I actually agree on something. Being FORCED to use a particular IMS-type-thing on ANY projector is ridiculous. The projector manufacturers need to stick with making projectors and let the server manufacturers stick with making playback devices. All projectors should be able to use any IMS/server of the client's choosing.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-25-2015, 01:02 PM:

According to the pictures, the Alchemy is slotted in the Barco, so for now it doesn't look like there is no alternative IMB/IMS for the Barco.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 06-25-2015, 01:57 PM:

Considering that the electronics seems to come from the S series, maybe it's just a first step to sell more alchemy and to reduce the initial variables and potentially offer a more reliable product.

Steve,
Touché [Smile]

Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 06-25-2015, 08:29 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
How is a 220 volt projector detrimental to rental? You have a special cord that plugs into two 120 volt outlets on two separate circuits. I do that all the time. I just thought I should state the obvious.

Because that cord is a widowmaker, and send that out on a rental and someone gets shocked you'll be in for a world of pain from the Americal legal system.

I'm pretty sure if I had a searchable version of the NEC I could find several violations, and such an assembly will not be UL listed, so any insurance claims would be denied.

I just thought I should state the obvious.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-25-2015, 09:37 PM:

Um, nope. It is perfectly legal if it is equipped to meet code. There is nothing more or less dangerous about it than the 220 volts used in Europe.

Mark

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 06-26-2015, 02:15 AM:

I don't think it's up to code in any country that does have "a code", because you're essentially bridging two circuits. Pulling the circuit breaker should always result in this circuit being powerless.

So, unless your "cord" does have protection for this, I'd consider your "cord" extremely dangerous. There has been a whole topic about this kind of contraptions recently.

But I don't think there will be a need or those kind of contraptions anyway, don't you think Barco will release a 120VAC version too?

quote: Carsten Kurz
According to the pictures, the Alchemy is slotted in the Barco, so for now it doesn't look like there is no alternative IMB/IMS for the Barco.

Even if it's a proper, "slotted" IMB and the machine will be supported by other IMB manufacturers, you probaby won't be able to buy the machine without the IMB/IMS already pre-installed. Since this device is obviously targeted at the more budget-constrained bottom of the market, I don't see anybody buying an additional IMB/IMS/Server.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-26-2015, 06:10 AM:

I believe Mark was merely referring to using 208/240 power versus 120V rather than claiming that the cheater cord (plug into two disparate 120V circuits (despite him saying that one can use such a cord in a rental situation).

Yes, 220V is not a "widowmaker" and, honestly, a "properly" made cord should not be able to be more dangerous (grounds tied on both sides) such that if there was an over-current, either or both breakers would trip. That said, such a cord would NEVER pass code in the US because the two legs do not have a common breaker. Current code requires that all legs in a circuit must trip at the same time. At one point one used to be able to strap adjacent breakers in a panel (Square-D had a hole in the lever of the breaker to do it and other styles you could put a bar across the levers. That is a no-go now and I believe current QO style breakers no longer have the hole. You have to use the proper breaker style to meet code.

That said, I've seen most everything on a rental job to make the show go on.

But back to 220V...use a step up transformer (or even an Autoformer). They are available in many different VA sizes. We do it all of the time for Barco to use 120V UPSes. They aren't all that expensive.

As to Mark's statement:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I normally use a 220 volt UPS which gives a longer run time because the equipment is drawing half the power.

As an Electrical Engineer...sorry Bzzzzzt wrong. The most basic of basic "laws" of electricity is Pi=Po (Power in equals power out)...just about every rule/law related to electricity flows or is derived from that one. UPSes are rated in "VA" or Volt-Amps (which is like watts but not taking into consideration the power factor of the circuit). If and only if the power factor equals 1, then VA = watts. In this application VA is easier to comprehend (and compute for the circuit). When you buy a 1500VA UPS (or whatever size)...that is its capacity regardless of 120 or 220V. A 1500VA 220V UPS does not have any more storage capacity than a 1500VA 120V UPS. If you are plugging in the same projector (NC900C) into either, it is going to draw the same VA out of both...yes, half the current on the 220 but at twice the voltage. VA has each part of that as equals. Trading one for the other doesn't buy you anything. Now in transmission lines over long distances, higher voltages reduce (I^2)R losses in the wire itself (where R is the resistance of the wire over its length). Lowering the current (I) is lowering your loss by the square of the current and this is significant when you are moving the power over long distances where aluminum/copper resistances become significant and the desire to use smaller/lighter (less expensive) cables is also desired. However, in a projection pedestal where the length of the cable is so short that the resistance of the cable is not a significant player, choosing 220 over 120 to save on wire inefficiencies is not a valid argument.

Back on topic. I don't think Barco will allow an ICP to be used on this projector. I think they would be wrong to not offer it that way since it will exclude the entire projector sale from some applications since if I like a particular brand server and I use it throughout my chain, I don't want the projector company dictating to me that I have to use their server. Barco would NEVER be able to show that the ICMP in an S2K projector would "improve" somehow the final output. It is the lowest quality 2K image we can possibly offer due to the inherent issues optically. The ICP is perfectly capable of running 2K up to 120fps...there is no technical benefit to the ICMP in a 2K projector. The ICMP does offer potential higher bandwidth in a 4K projector though there is no product yet to use its potential and I don't think they have implemented the full capability yet.

It is also interesting to note that Christie seemingly is going to issue a CP2205 projector in the not too distant future. I noted the model in the latest release of their software. I have no information on this projector but I suspect that it will be a Solaria 1+ sans the IMB S2. It would make sense. Why would one want to loose projector sales over your less than reliable IMB?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2015, 10:02 AM:

Buzzst yourself Steve, I wasn't inferring that that a UPS had more capacity at 220 volts but that equipment hooked to one drew about half the current that it would operating on 120 volts. Hence the run time of the same 1500VA UPS is considerably longer because of that. This was suggested to me initially by Tripp Lite tech support after they had done tests with none other than Barco. And after testing the run times I was able to confirm it to be fact. The Power On Line UPS's are very efficient power generators. My customers power bills are also much lower running all on 220 volts.

Mark

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-26-2015, 12:16 PM:

quote:
I wasn't inferring that that a UPS had more capacity at 220 volts but that equipment hooked to one drew about half the current that it would operating on 120 volts.

But you said power:

quote:
I normally use a 220 volt UPS which gives a longer run time because the equipment is drawing half the power.

Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 06-26-2015, 01:52 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Buzzst yourself Steve, I wasn't inferring that that a UPS had more capacity at 220 volts but that equipment hooked to one drew about half the current that it would operating on 120 volts. Hence the run time of the same 1500VA UPS is considerably longer because of that. This was suggested to me initially by Tripp Lite tech support after they had done tests with none other than Barco. And after testing the run times I was able to confirm it to be fact. The Power On Line UPS's are very efficient power generators. My customers power bills are also much lower running all on 220 volts.

Sounds like Ohm's Law and a whole lot of other unimportant laws don't apply to your equipment. I might want to buy those UPSes from you by the boatloads, because unless the Saudi oil sheiks get at me first, I'm going to be stinking filthy rich!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2015, 05:12 PM:

Marcel,

Try it for you self and see, I did after consulting the UPS manufacturer. If I hadn't all my systems would have been fitted with 120 volt UPS's. You will find different battery packs in the two versions which explains some of the advantage. The 220 volt battery pack is a higher voltage pack then the 120 volt version. I stock them both here. That said, if the packs were identical then of course it's not going to matter. Duh!

Mark

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-26-2015, 07:39 PM:

A friend inquired at Barco and was told that the Alchemy IMS is indeed hard-bundled with the DP2k-6E. That means, no other options, and no chance to operate a different server in it, at least for now. As the Alchemy includes the ICP, it would be quite expensive anyway to add another IMB/IMS + the then necessary ordinary ICP.

Well, at least the Alchemy is a promising piece of hardware, and as it is the preferred IMS for all Barco systems in the future (including Barcos/IMAX laser projectors), it could be worse being tied to it. The question is, in how far is it supported by TMS' already?

- Carsten

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-23-2015, 02:15 AM:

Has anyone seen the DP2K-6E in the wild already?

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-23-2015, 09:03 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
And after testing the run times I was able to confirm it to be fact. The Power On Line UPS's are very efficient power generators. My customers power bills are also much lower running all on 220 volts.

And I guess you have documented data to back that up? Again, you are drawing 1/2 the amperage but at twice the voltage and the capacity of the system remains 1500VA.

I cannot claim to have measured the times of the run down between 220 versus 120 UPS using the identical equipment to see if you get a longer run time (I get 15-20 minutes typically...long enough to get things shut down gracefully if power really isn't coming back). So I'll let it slide for now on how long the equipment stays up...but on the lower electric bills...not a chance. Prove it!

Even looking at NEC's specification on their projector running at 100-130 versus 200-240 backs up the claim:

10.3 to 7.9 A (100 to 130 V)
5.1 to 4.3 A (200 to 240 V)

So, I guess at 100V versus 200V...you lose about .1A somewhere (could be in the rounding even) but POWER wise...your electric bill is going to be the same at 120V versus 220V unless you have REALLY long power lines between the load center and the projector with small gauge wire (should be 14awg minimum at 120V for a 10-15A load but I suppose you could try 16awg to prove your point...actual consumption at 120V is just shy of 10A...I've measured that) to consume the higher current of 120V in heat.

Posted by Ian Freer (Member # 1940) on 10-23-2015, 11:30 PM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
Has anyone seen the DP2K-6E in the wild already?

I only have 2nd-hand information, but I heard the 6E not yet available, but is very close, maybe a week or two...