Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC NC1200C doesn't boot up after summer break

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Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-18-2015, 12:14 PM:

Has anyone had any experience with Series 2 NEC projectors refusing to boot up after a longish period (45 days) of inactivity?

I'm stuck with two of my 1200Cs (yes, two) that seem to power up, but Communicator can't reach them and the entire control panel is lit up but non-functional. I can see their IP addresses if I try and launch a network scan, but that's it.

Is there a battery that might have died somewhere? Anything I can do while I wait for NEC to reply? Thanks!

[Edit: Just saw that Brad referred to the Enigma battery in another thread. In case that's the issue I'm dealing with, I'm keeping the projectors powered for the 24 hours I have before reopening. Hope that helps and I don't need a two new boards.]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2015, 01:09 PM:

The Enigma battery going dead will not keep you from communicating with the projector. The projector will give you an error relating to the Enigma/Link Decryptor (and you can't show movies on it) but it should otherwise wake up. There is a battery on the ICP module but it is a typical coin battery, the CR-2032 which should be good in the 5-7 year range.

Since you said Enigma...this presumes you don't have an IMB of any type either. If you have an IMB you either shouldn't have an Enigma or you can bypass the Enigma via DCC.

But DCC should be able to connect up to the projector (and the WEB server should work too).

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-18-2015, 01:44 PM:

Reseating boards might also be worth a try.

- Carsten

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-18-2015, 02:36 PM:

Correct, no IMB on these two. This is unusual, we have turned them off for 30 days at a time for the last five years and this break was just a couple of weeks longer. Can't connect via the web interface either.

Still trying to get hold of NEC, my installer thinks the culprit is the CPU board, apparently he had something very similar happen. However, since they were installed in 2010, maybe the ICP battery could still be an option... I just don't get how two identical machines could develop the exact same issue at the exact same time without any external cause.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-18-2015, 03:15 PM:

I've had NEC projectors sit way longer that waiting for construction to finish (like 3 months straight) and they still worked fine. It IS odd that both projectors are doing the same thing. Can you get to the INFO screen by pressing the Menu button down? Or does that screen just light up and there is nothing there?

I'd almost suspect the LVPS that's mounted to the left of the heat exchanger as that's the power supply for the card cage electronics.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2015, 03:59 PM:

So forgetting the DCC and Web UI for the moment. When you put power on them...do they come up to the standby state?

If so, can you take the key lock off? If so can you start the projectors manually with the keypad? If the projectors wake up with green tail lights and now messages on the LCD screen about bad things, then it sounds like an IT problem.

Your description makes it sound like the LCD screen is dead (other than maybe a back light). If that is the case then yes, it sounds like the main CPU is the problem. Note, I saw on the current NEC release notes (for service pack 4.217) that there is a problem in earlier service packs if the date is reset to 1/1/2000:

quote:
01. Fix the bug, Projector can not boot up when date of projector was reset to 2000/01/01.

I wonder if your situation is related to that issue.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-18-2015, 04:45 PM:

ICP and Enigma batteries won't make a projector inoperative as you describe.

Since two projectors have now developed the same fault, I doubt it's a fault but probably some sw bug or maybe a battery which keeps alive the main programme - which I am not aware of.

Can you try and connect by RS232? Not sure if the RS232 on the projector is for the ICP or the projector, but I would try connecting with putty and then turn the projector up, you may see some activity in there.

More than that, in case there is a timeout the projector should show something after 5 minutes. If that's not the case, sounds scary.

Any chance a power surge - maybe during a storm - may have damaged the projectors, via ethernet or any other cable?

Steve,

my page says

quote:
Upload Release Package 4.2.17
RP 4.217 is solved the power on failure of both RP4.215 and RP4.216.

quote:
The failure is the power on failure when the projector is not turned on over 1weeks

This may explain why 215 and 216 were removed from the web as you were wondering on another thread.
I have the feeling that this may be a severe issue...

Pietro,
do your projector happen to be on 4.215 or 4.216?

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-18-2015, 05:01 PM:

No way to get them to the standby state, unfortunately. The LCD backlight works, but the panel itself is blank and all the keys aren't functional, so I can't remove the keyboard lock. Except for the usual single beeping noise when power is applied, I don't think the projectors are booting up at all.

Thanks for the release notes, I'm 99% sure they both were on 4.211. Maybe a ICP battery event caused the clock to reset to 1/1/2000? I'll check again tomorrow with my installer and point him to that.

I'll admit I'm not an expert when it comes to electrical engineering, but I would rule out power surges: the two different panel boards the projectors are connected to where switched off the entire time and none of the circuit breakers and UPS we have in the building were activated.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-18-2015, 05:53 PM:

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing Marco...That this may be the result that 4.217 was trying to fix.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-19-2015, 04:06 AM:

Update: we had 4.216 on board. Thanks for bringing that up.
Let's see if/how NEC takes responsibility for this.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-19-2015, 03:40 PM:

Please keep us posted.

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-20-2015, 01:02 PM:

Sure.

As of now, we have two CPU boards on the way: there has been at least one other case of this in Italy not too long ago, a NC2000 in a screening room that isn't used on a daily basis. At the time the cause (they had 4.216 too) was not known, but installing a new board solved the issue.

No official response from NEC yet, but suffice to say, I'm NOT paying for this even if I am way out of warranty. Frankly, no serious company would even demand that.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-20-2015, 02:06 PM:

Wow! They can even fix it via software eh? Must be because you can never get real communication to the thing. Scary stuff.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-20-2015, 04:32 PM:

I was hoping for a 'low level' communication with the board (by serial?) too.

Scary indeed. To be honest I feel that if the issue is so serious NEC should have probably done more to tackle the bug. Some countries are used to doing a break during the summer, NEC should have been more proactive on those sites.

The least they can do is to pay for the replacement.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-21-2015, 05:04 AM:

Ooops, oops, I have an NC900C in summer break, on 4.214. Gonna give them a call to wake it up as a safety measure. It may be safe because NEC left that version on their support server, but...

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2015, 10:48 AM:

quote: Marco Giustini
NEC should have been more proactive on those sites.

It actually wasn't very long a period that NEC released 4.217 after releasing 4.216, about 45 days perhaps. If you are looking on the Strong site for firmware it is really a waste of time as they seem to have rather long delays between the time NEC releases something to when they might actually post it on their ftp site. Setting up an account with NEC and keeping track of their site by reading the release notes is your best insurance. I too have some sites on 4.216 but they are never powered off long enough to matter, many remain in standby 24/7.

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-21-2015, 11:41 AM:

releasing a new version is not 'being proactive' to me.

It means sending a note to all cinemas asking them to identify their version and to urge an upgrade if they plan to keep the projector off for more than 7 days.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-21-2015, 11:51 AM:

Over here it's up to the servicing tech or contracted service company or NOC to keep track of that stuff. How is NEC supposed to know which projectors have 4.216 in them, and how is NEC supposed to even know where each projector is located? They sell through distributors, at least over here... not directly. In Australia they do sell directly and they do keep track of issues like this.

It's pretty much the same way with Christie and Barco too. That's why there ARE service tech's and NOC's to begin with.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2015, 12:11 PM:

Ummm NO! The separation between 4.216 and 4.217 was about 5-months!

As for proactive...NEC doesn't do many tech bulletins and this one deserves one.

I do agree it is impractical for them to keep track of each projector.

All of the NECs we remotely support are now on 4.217 as we took this as a potentially grave problem.

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-21-2015, 03:23 PM:

Exactly what Steve said.

NEC did not mention this as a big issue and Steve said they would upgrade during normal maintenance.

Now all Steve's NEC projectors are on 4.217 because someone explained what the "power on failure" is on a public forum.

Do you call this being proactive?

I do not expect NEC to send a note to each cinema but to get in touch with every distributors, explaining the problem and asking to get in touch with all the customers who may be affected.

When Dolby found the bug on the CP850 which was likely to disable the cat 1600, a bulletin was dispatched asking to urgently upgrade all the units.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2015, 05:30 PM:

It should be noted that the Enigma 1.8 did get a bulletin on the NEC download site (North America, at least)...there is no harm in having such bulletins and it is a decent way of getting the word out.

For some reason, Barco hasn't been as talkative with their Info-Ts...I don't think they still mention anything about the magnet thing on the 32B lamphouse...the Info T exists but they don't publish it. They are also mum on the shaky B lens mount.

Back to NEC...note, I did put 2 and 2 together, if you recall, that I questioned WHY 4.215 and 4.216 were removed from download when 4.217 came out and that it was strange and that the only thing in the release notes was the inability to boot the projector up if the dates were reset to 1/1/2000. But no...NEC didn't put out any CAUTION notices.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-21-2015, 06:22 PM:

And that date reset would occur due to a drained CPU board battery, they missed that?

Is that CPU board battery a battery to actually be exchanged? Does it show up in any service manual? And how would a different software fix that?

Yes, NEC SHOULD definitely issue a tech bulletin...

- Carsten

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-22-2015, 04:43 AM:

The new CPU boards are in, everything works fine.
We haven't heard from NEC yet.

I definitely think a bug of this scale would have warranted an urgent bulletin sent *directly* to all dealers and installers. And maintaining a customer database probably wouldn't hurt either.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-22-2015, 07:02 AM:

Could you take a look at the older CPU boards? Do you see a typical 'coin' type battery? They don't necessarily have to be this kind of cell. Some use rechargable cells or SuperCaps.

Anyway, until NEC explains what happens, it seems that the problem is not so much a drained battery or clock reset, but the software being unable to cope with that condition, otherwise the issue couldn't be related to specific software versions. CPU boards with a different software seem to be able to recover from a clock reset, maybe by reading from another clock source like ICP or Enigma, or simply ignoring a wrong clock setting until it is set manually.

ICP memory corruption, bricked Enigmas, bricked CPU boards - when will these systems be safe for the operator?

- Carsten

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 08-22-2015, 08:36 AM:

There are no removable batteries, just a large blue 5.5V /1.0 F supercapacitor. On the new boards they are black and much thinner, coin cell-style.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-22-2015, 08:56 AM:

So it seems they are not expected to actually keep time for years, and reset conditions would occur and certainly have occurred before. Just that previous software (and now 4.217 again) was able to deal with it.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-22-2015, 09:55 AM:

seems a little unreal that a board loses its clock/settings after a WEEK - this is what the NEC note says.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-22-2015, 10:41 AM:

No problem if there are other sources in the system where the CPU board can update it's time after boot. AND if the software deals with a CPU board clock reset gracefully, which, potentially, is not the case for 4.215 and 4.216 at least.

- Carsten

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-22-2015, 10:51 AM:

Sure, but can you think of any piece of equipment with a clock and a battery/capacitor on it that loses the time after a WEEK?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-22-2015, 01:36 PM:

The damn microwave loses its time after mere moments of no power!

Note, the note doesn't discuss losing its time per say. If you look at the setup date of any NEC (within DCC go to UPDATE>SETUP DATE..it has 1/1/2000.

Now I was never told to change those and I don't recall reading about that anywhere. I wonder if changing those to something more current would also address the problem or perhaps it affects people that have set them and then after the power outage, they go BACK to that date and then the time line is confused.

Anyone have the info on the Setup Date business?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 08-22-2015, 02:55 PM:

Steve

quote: Marco Giustini
any piece of equipment with a clock and a battery/capacitor on it

And the Microwave is not DCI compliant! [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-24-2015, 02:11 PM:

And I just checked Strong's FTP site and they don't even have 4.217 up yet. Strong has become almost completely worthless these days...