This is topic Another Tripp Lite UPS Bites The Dust in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-03-2015, 12:16 PM:
 
Nearby customer just called. His 2 1/2 year old Trip Lite UPS is showing a low battery and error. Another customer that had this issue tried a new set of batteries at Tripp Lite's suggestion however, that did not fix the problem. He had to replace the UPS as Tripp Lite also does not repair out of warranty units at all. I haven't looked at that UPS yet to see what failed but I'll be seeing this one today as the customer is bringing it to my shop for a look. Sadly, It's beginning to appear that Tripp Lite is no better any more then APC or any of the others.

Mark
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-03-2015, 12:28 PM:
 
Do they have power issues at that location? If the UPS is constantly compensating for high or low incoming voltage, that could cause premature death. If not, then the UPS should have lasted far longer. I have an APC SU1400RM2U at home that dates from 2001 or thereabouts and works great.

The smallish APC UPSes that I have used in an IT context generally have battery lives of about three years, plus or minus one year, so the dead battery issue is not surprising. APC sells a network card that will do nifty things like send email notifications and SNMP traps when something goes wrong with the battery, UPS, room, temperature, etc.

APC is pretty much standard for small/medium IT installations. The only time when I have seen Tripp-Lite units has been in D-cinema installs, actually. APC has had a few duds, but the Smart-UPS and Symmetra lines have generally been good to me (again, in an IT context, not cinema). Their telephone support is also surprisingly good.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-03-2015, 02:05 PM:
 
I've always used APC UPS's here. I probably have at least a half dozen of them in various places. I've replaced a battery here and there but never a problem otherwise.

We definitely have "power issues" here. If there's any lighting in the area we'll get little two-second power failures. Sometimes it'll come back on for a half minute then drop for another two seconds. There's no rhyme or reason to it; sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't.

Whatever's causing the problem, it's not here in town; it's east of here, because it always happens after a storm passes, almost never during a storm. And it never happens during the winter, since there's no lightning then. The only thing that causes problems in the winter for us is a huge heavy wet snow.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-03-2015, 02:32 PM:
 
Tripplite rates their batteries in the 3-5 year range. They also have an expensive SNMPWEB card that will allow the ups to email and such. We generally only that card on the TMS server (since it can also issue a graceful shutdown if the batteries are getting low.

We've found that the SMART line of Tripplites have far fewer problems than the Smart Online versions (double conversions). The Smart Onlines are great but they can suddenly just die. We now have a transfer switch in our systems in the event a UPS dies.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-05-2015, 09:31 AM:
 
Mike, the two-second power drops are a recloser operating. Many faults (short circuits) are transients that will clear if power is turned off. Like if a tree branch momentarily brushes a wire and creates an ongoing arc. Turn off the power and turn it back on and it's gone. A recloser is a circuit breaker that will attempt to reset a specified number of times. If the fault is still there after several attempts to clear it by turning the power off a couple of seconds, then it locks out. This saves many nuisance trips and people left in the dark unnecessarily.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-05-2015, 12:02 PM:
 
This is a Smart On Line unit (220 volt), it's all I use except on TMS's. Luckily in this case it WAS just the batteries but a warning about these... The dam fault light is a joke, basically meaningless. The first one of these that had the exact same symptoms is toast. There IS also Bad or Replace Battery light in the lower left corner of the operating panel that never came on. So I go and pull the batteries out and found that they were nearly TWO YEARS older then the actual unit was. Way to go Tripp Lite! I lucked out on batteries too. A local battery supplier had a big batch of the exact same battery made in a special color for a customer only to find out the color was trademarked (or part of one) and they could not use them. So at $12.00 each that was a bargain. I bought 8 cases of them.

This is a 48 volt battery pack and if it drops below 30 volts you have a dead in the water UPS that won't even charge it's own batteries! If that happens you may be able to revive them using a 2 amp trickle charger, but don't hold your breath.

I am also recommending to everyone with these (SUINT1500RTXL2UA) to keep an inexpensive Tripp- lite bypass panel at each location in case the batteries or the UPS fails (one at each projector may be a little ridiculous since it takes all of 5 min to hook up.) and to replace batteries every 4 years irregardless of weather they seem to work fine or not. The panel is well under $200 bucks and could save your weekend from disaster. You open that sucker up and you'll see the factory date on the battery pack!

So I do DO NOT recommend purchasing the packs from Tripp Lite. Get them locally from a reputable battery supplier like I did and rebuild the pack your self. That takes about 15 min. to do. My batteries have a factory date on them of within the last 90 days...

Tripp Lite Bypass Panel

I also have had zero issues with the Tripplite Smart Pro UPS's, I have close to 40 of those working in TMS's. If one of those dies it's not mission critical to the theater generally. And unlike a downed booth, one has some time to get those going again..

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-05-2015, 01:35 PM:
 
What we originally did was to use an internal power strip to plug everything that will plug into the UPS...plug the power strip into the UPS. In the event of a UPS failure, you are just one plug away from plugging everything back into city power (plug the power strip into the outlet that the UPS was plugged into).

We have since incorporated a transfer switch into our systems so if the UPS dies, the system immediately is on city power.

As for battery changing...yes Tripplite is SUPER easy. Nothing has to be removed from the rack/pedestal...just take the front over off and change the battery pack. They slide out pretty easy from the front.

Again, batteries are only good for 3-5 years and then they start to swell up too and you'll never get them out.

The current SMART versions also have a better front panel display than the Smart Online versions...give you incoming/outgoing voltage, current...etc. The only place we use the "SU" series anymore are on NECs. I tend to use 120V versions for everything and step up for those things that NEED 220 (e.g. Barco electronics).
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-05-2015, 04:49 PM:
 
quote: Steve Kraus
Mike, the two-second power drops are a recloser operating.
That's good to know -- but it sure is irritating. I kept track of power outages for several years. The worst year I documented was 2012, we had 33 outages that year. Last year we did better; we only had around 20. All ranging from a couple of seconds to about four hours. And almost all during (or just after) lightning events.

My wife lived in Billings for 17 years before we met and she says we have more power failures here in one year than she experienced the whole time she lived in Billings.
 
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 09-05-2015, 09:37 PM:
 
Years ago, we bought a generator for our drive-in. You haven't seen dark until you lose power in one of these places. We haven't needed the generator a lot, but it paid for itself the first time we did.
quote: Mike Blakesley was the last to post

 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-06-2015, 09:11 AM:
 
Considering I have over 300 of these out there I probably shouldn't complain too much. I just wish these UPS's had better battery monitoring circuitry in them. I have had zero failures of the Smart units so far. But their load is a lot less at about 400 watts total. And the fact that Tripp Lite refuses to repair their product is really the pits too!

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-06-2015, 02:07 PM:
 
I'll tell you...that is the "new world" we live in. NOBODY wants to fix ANYTHING out of warranty. If out of warranty, everyone tells you to just throw it away. USL, in our industry is a notable exception and Christie will also attempt repairs. But as for most other industries...not a chance. Same is true with TVs and most any other consumer electronics.

I'm sure that part of the problem is the high density (many layer) boards and SMT stuff where potential repairs are going to be troublesome. Also, it is likely that service was not considered in design. If there aren't good test points, it may be near impossible to find bad stuff.

Mind you, I'm not defending the practice...I HATE it but I keep coming across it from everyone! The first time I came across it in the cinema industry was Barco...board out of warranty (like an Enigma that has bricked)...sorry nothing we will do! Having a software related failure cause something to be discarded is just plain silly but that is what happens. Fortunately, we did keep those powered until the cure was found. Then again, I have one or two Enigmas who's power has been off in excess for a year...why can't there be a fee to recommission them? That is a TI thing if not something that any of the OEMs could do. Mind you, I have a Christie as well as a Barco in that state.

I bet ya that APC has the same policy for out-of-warranty devices.
 
Posted by Rex Oliver (Member # 7593) on 09-07-2015, 12:13 AM:
 
Recloser-From the breif but very good training we obtained from Powell Industries(Makers of utility and industrial switchgear)A Recloser will give three tries and then isolate the circuit affected from the distribution system then acting as a sectionalizer.so if your power "Blinks" three times in succesion(like sec between tries)-get out the flashlights and fire up your genset if you have one.A power company lineman has to manually reset the Recloser-sectionalizer after the fault has been corrected.Powell Industries replaced our 4160V switchgear at the transmitter plant.Their training was breaif but very good and interesting.The breakers they installed at our plant can be programmed for 3 shots-but for equipment breaker useage-they are for 1 shot.These devices can be pole mounted or mounted in enclosed "metalclad" switchgear cabinets for indoor use.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-07-2015, 03:05 PM:
 
My understanding is that a sectionalizer (which may not be that common) is like a recloser in that it has a breaker, overcurrent detection, and a counter but the breaker is not designed to open while carrying fault level current. It can carry it okay, just not open during it. That makes it cheaper and in theory can be placed more numerously covering smaller branches. A regular recloser goes above that covering a wider area.

The counter on the sectionalizer is set to a lower number than on the recloser above it.

The idea is that when there is a fault, the sectionalizer senses the fault-level current passing through it. The recloser higher up in the system opens and recloses in attempt(s) to clear it. If after several interruptions, the fault is still there, the sectionalizer waits for the recloser to open again and this time the sectionlizer on the branch with the fault opens. When the recloser recloses the power is then back on and only the one small branch stays out.

The recloser doesn't know or care if the fault cleared because of the power being cycled or because a sectionalizer took the bad branch offline. All that matters is that it reclosed and the fault was finally gone.

Naturally you can do the same thing with reclosers on each branch; the sectionalizer was supposed to be cheaper so smaller segments could be isolated.
 
Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-07-2015, 05:43 PM:
 
Not to derail this thread any more but my thoughts on reclosers.

Where I live the recloser is higher up the distribution tree. Typically branches are fused. A hard fault will blow the fuse but a temporary one will cause the recloser to attempt to restore power 3 times before going open.

The power company does a pretty good job of keeping the trees trimmed back but has to get landowner permission in some cases. A family at the end of my road steadfastly refused permission so the power company installed a fuse at the entry to their property. Now they can sit in the dark when the rest of us have power.

I have a generator, as do most of my neighbors.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-07-2015, 06:14 PM:
 
Is the US power distribution system really that bad that significant numbers of people experience power failures on a regular basis?

Power failures are something that I would normally associate with stormy weather (leading to ice forming on power lines and/or trees falling on them), maintenance activity, or catastrophic equipment failure (mostly transformer explosions and the like, but also includes cars driving into poles and similar issues).
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-07-2015, 06:53 PM:
 
I'd say 90% of our outages happen during summer storms. Maybe 3% during repairs to our aging infrastructure, 2% caused by people running into poles, digging up buried lines etc, and the rest just stuff wearing out.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-07-2015, 08:11 PM:
 
It was bad in Salt Lake City for a few years but they did not cut the trees back sufficiently. Now they do. At my old residence we had strange power issues where the power would go low. The came out with chart recorders and the whole nine yards and didn't find a thing. Then one night I could hear the transformer on the pole out behind our place making sizzling sounds after a very light rain. They sent a guy right over and turns out the transformer was bad, they replaced it the next morning and all was well. Lineman said the insulators on it were shot. Other wise in that town I had basically zero power issues. It was a locally run power company and not Utah Power.

Mark
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-08-2015, 12:01 PM:
 
Anyway, the saga on this one continues... It died again yesterday and apparently the batteries are not staying fully charged. This has happened over a four day period too. So beware if you think you have it fixed and all indicates on the front panel that it is there could still be other issues.

Mark
 
Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 09-08-2015, 04:44 PM:
 
quote: Scott Norwood
Is the US power distribution system really that bad that significant numbers of people experience power failures on a regular basis?
Not really. Most outages here are associated with storms. When you have well water a generator is a good idea. After all, you only get a few flushes without one.
 
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 09-10-2015, 01:45 PM:
 
Is there an AC--> DC --> AC power converter without batteries?
 
Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 09-10-2015, 09:26 PM:
 
quote: Steve Kraus
Is there an AC--> DC --> AC power converter without batteries?
Sure is, many double conversion (ie online) UPSs are happy to run without batteries, just enquire of technical support.

These guys have been around for years, and have a range of battery-less static converters ostensibly for frequency changing purposes, but they are quite happy to convert (something like 110V 60Hz) to (perfect 110V 60Hz). Pick a size from the "50Hz or 60Hz column".

Some of them you can even add batteries to the mix.....
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-14-2015, 02:54 PM:
 
I did a little checking around on other groups that also use a lot of these types of UPS's and this issue with the unit not charging batteries is actually a pretty common problem. Since Tripp Lite doesn't repair their own products it leaves you two choices...

1. Replace the UPS and use the old one for a door stop.

2. Connect an external charger to the external battery back connector IF you are not using an external battery pack. If you are on an external pack you are likely already using an external charger becauase the internal charger is too wimpy to charge a large bank of batteries. External Lead acid chargers are widely available....

Mark
 
Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 08-29-2017, 08:55 AM:
 

It has been 714 days since the last post.


 
Posted by Brian Mendelssohn (Member # 9108) on 08-29-2017, 08:55 AM:
 
Hi all. I'm having problems with my Tripp Lite SmartPro 1500VA and I needed some expert advice.

1. We use to turn it off at the end of each night to power down the system. The power button stopped working (the shut down cycle failed... which makes no sense to me). So we not just keep it on 24/7, and just shut down out projector on its own. What is the standard practice for this. I'm worried about the economics, but more worried about the safety of the equipment.

2. During our most recent power failure (we have about one per month), the Tripplite battery worked for about 15 min, which is normal... but even though the power was back on, it wouldn't switch back to city power. After several restarts, we ended up bypassing the UPS system completely. 3 days later, I tried it out again... and everything seems fine. I'm hesitant to do this because I don't want my projector to fail. My first Tripplite completely failed after 1.5 years.... and I'm 1.5 years into this one, so I've been bite which makes me more hesitant.

3. Everyone talks about switching out the batteries and using a local supplier. This is beyond my knowledge, so I need some help. Is there an online link to the particular batteries I need... and maybe I can just buy them from an online battery supplier. Also, is this straight forward to change?

Thanks in advance. I don't want to spend another $600 to buy a new tripplite.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-29-2017, 09:51 AM:
 
Brian,

We have hundreds of Tripplites out there from both the SMART Online (double conversion) and SMART PRO (Line interactive). By FAR, the biggest failure we see are just the batteries. A flaw, in my opinion, of the design is if the batteries fail (just one has to fail) then the unit appears completely dead. Change the batteries, they are as good as new again.

I have definitely seen that those that use the "dimples" to turn them on/off daily will wear the dimple out, if not the switch itself. As such, we do not recommend using the UPS to turn things on/off daily. We have put a power strip, in line with the UPS to turn things on/off. This has the added benefit that if a UPS actually fails, you only have to move that one cord to city power to be back up.

That said, we developed our own transfer switch so if a UPS fails, then it automatically switches to city power. The UPSes run 24/7. There is little to no reason to ever turn them off anyway. Our automation system is what powers the projector and servers up/down in or later systems so the user interface is just a toggle switch, designed for daily use. Ultimately, the POS schedule will be what will actuate the systems going on/off.

As for batteries. Tripplite has their own battery packs, which are not the cheapest things. Most UPSes run on some form of 12V Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) batteries. We buy them by the pallet and change them out for our customers on our regular PM calls. If you do source your own batteries, then be sure to get the right size with the right terminal size.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-29-2017, 10:17 AM:
 
We use a Tripplite SmartOnline 1500/230 on our site, it is running for 4-1/2 years now. It get's switched off every night completely (front panel shutdown, mains removed). Never had a single issue with it. Still on first battery set.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-29-2017, 12:19 PM:
 
Well there's the kiss of death! (The batteries are rated for 3-5 years). I'm amazed that the dimples haven't broken off on you yet.
 
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-29-2017, 03:14 PM:
 
It is actually only running for 3-4hrs per day. So I expect it to last a bit longer.

- Carsten
 
Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-29-2017, 03:22 PM:
 
I just (yesterday) had a "whole house surge suppressor" installed beside the panel box in my theatre. I have surge suppressors and UPS's on things here like the projection equipment and computers and whatnot, but there was really nothing protecting stuff like the boiler and air conditioners and fridges and the like.

By the nature of this unit I suppose I'll never know if it actually does anything or does any good but I figure it can't hurt and since it cost $300 installed, that's not too excessive if it can help save the equipment.

It sure doesn't look like much; it's a three-inch cube with a green light on the front. If the green light ever goes out it needs to be replaced. And that's all there is to that.
 
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 08-29-2017, 05:00 PM:
 
Well, yes - depending on location. Country sites are on long transmission lines often with lots of trees and thunderstorms. You're crazy not to have high quality site surge protection and use UPS units on computers etc.
Cities are much much better, any location will have multiple HV feed routes. But outages from auto crashes and tree falls are not so rare. Equipment is getting old and load has increased enormously: everyone seems to have multiple TVs and computers, air conditioning is everywhere... transformer explosions and vault fires are more common now.
Newer urban power infrastructure uses buried lines eliminating many potential problems. But outages can occurfurther up the line. Overloaded substations coping with a new condo building tend to fail.
 
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-29-2017, 07:01 PM:
 
quote: Brian Mendelssohn
1. We use to turn it off at the end of each night to power down the system. The power button stopped working (the shut down cycle failed... which makes no sense to me). So we not just keep it on 24/7, and just shut down out projector on its own. What is the standard practice for this. I'm worried about the economics, but more worried about the safety of the equipment.
The safest thing for the equipment (which is what really makes the most sense economically) is to leave the UPS on 24/7. That is what it is designed to do. Do your shutdowns as Steve mentioned.

quote: Brian Mendelssohn
2. During our most recent power failure (we have about one per month), the Tripplite battery worked for about 15 min, which is normal... but even though the power was back on, it wouldn't switch back to city power. After several restarts, we ended up bypassing the UPS system completely. 3 days later, I tried it out again... and everything seems fine. I'm hesitant to do this because I don't want my projector to fail. My first Tripplite completely failed after 1.5 years.... and I'm 1.5 years into this one, so I've been bite which makes me more hesitant.
The reason it stayed in UPS mode was because even though the city power was back, it was NOT stable in either voltage, frequency or both. You did a very bad thing forcing it out of UPS...you could have severely damaged your equipment. Don't ever do that again..it could cost you a lot. If the UPS stays in back up mode with city power, it means the power is bad. (With city power on, most UPS will correct the problems without draining the battery in the process ("line interactive") so it is always safer to let the UPS do its job..if, on its own, it does shut down then there is a bigger problem..) Since the unit worked OK later, the problem was with the incoming power, not your UPS.

quote: Brian Mendelssohn


3. Everyone talks about switching out the batteries and using a local supplier. This is beyond my knowledge, so I need some help. Is there an online link to the particular batteries I need... and maybe I can just buy them from an online battery supplier. Also, is this straight forward to change?
I would contact Steve Guttag or Mark G. and I am pretty sure one of them could provide you with the batteries and assistance in changing them... [Wink]
 
Posted by Bob Ezra (Member # 841) on 08-29-2017, 11:12 PM:
 
what about this?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007FHDI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-30-2017, 04:28 PM:
 
quote: Steve Guttag
By FAR, the biggest failure we see are just the batteries.
In almost ALL Trip lites if the DC Battery voltage falls below 29 volts then the UPS is dead in the water. It will not even turn on. This is true of both Power On Line and the double conversion units. So if your UPS is dead just measure the DC voltage at the plug in battery terminals behind the front cover. If it's 29 volts or less then replace the batteries and it will come back to life. Out of 370 Tripp Lites 334 on projectors and another 40ish on TMS systems, I have only lost two units!! Pretty remarkable record if you ask me and it's why I have stuck with this brand. I hear many horror stories from broadcast tech friends about APC supplies failing all the time.

Mark
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-30-2017, 07:47 PM:
 
Brian and others: This is the battery I use in the Tripp Lites. This supplier is on the west coast which is convenient for me, and I have bought pallet quantities from them in the past. You can probably find them much closet to you though.

Power Sonic PS-1270 F1
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 08-30-2017, 08:03 PM:
 
In my previous life as an IT admin, I had a large number of both APC and Tripp Lite UPS's deployed. Typical battery life was about 3 years at best. Once the battery crosses the threshold to "dubious", UPS operation becomes flakey. I always kept a close eye on them and replaced batteries at the first sign of a battery quality alert. I considered it routine preventive maintenance.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-31-2017, 07:01 AM:
 
Mark, Tripplite use "F2" terminals (.250", rather than the F1, .187" you listed).
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-31-2017, 02:42 PM:
 
I know, the battery distributer told me they would work fine, and he was right. Some have been in just over two years now. I got a heckin deal on a pallet load of them last year to boot at $5.50 a battery plus shipping by freight. That was fun to unload! So far, no problems as the terminals are rated almost exactly the same and a slight pinch of the existing push on terminals and they also lock right in place. Anyway, he was correct.

Mark
 
Posted by Brian Mendelssohn (Member # 9108) on 09-01-2017, 12:48 AM:
 
Thanks for all the replies. For city power... which style UPS do people consider better.... the double conversion or the line interactive?
 
Posted by Marcel Birgelen (Member # 6801) on 09-01-2017, 04:11 AM:
 
The more reliable kind of UPS is most definitely the double conversion style UPS. As they feed the whole load through the whole UPS at any time, so you know they will hold once the lights go out.

Still, as far as economics go, a line interactive UPS is obviously more power efficient and usually also a whole bunch cheaper.

So, it depends on what kind of load you're securing. If it's a hospital or big datacenter, then for me, the answer is easy. But in case of cinema equipment, where most equipment isn't hooked up to a UPS and a power-outage will bring down the show anyway, a line interactive UPS should be sufficient. But make sure you test those things regularly.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-01-2017, 06:13 AM:
 
So why doesn't he supply the F2 terminals? Where we source our batteries, you can have it either way. Can you push a .250" terminal on a .187? Yes. Is it correct? No! Use the right terminal.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-01-2017, 01:54 PM:
 
Oh, I could have for about $5 more a battery. They had ~20,000 Powersonics with the F1 terminals to move and at heck of a price on a pallet load. Anyway, he assured me it would work and it did. The difference in size is only 1/16" and .01 thickness.

Mark
 
Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 09-01-2017, 05:44 PM:
 
I've had a whole-house surge protector on my breaker box since 2004 and it's still showing green. Before it was installed, I would lose smoke detectors each time we had a power outage when the power came back on. Since then, that hasn't happened.

We still have surge protectors on valuable equipment, but I think it was money well-spent, as it's just one extra level of protection.
 




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